GG Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 All these player discussion devolve into "Why won't the Bills just go out and get someone good?" like it's getting milk at the store. Actually that's not what people are saying, despite your attempts to continue blaming the fans. What the fans are saying is, "the talent on the roster isn't good enough at x position, they should bring in someone else to see if that player can be better." This team has been crappy for 14 years precisely following your logic. Why bother trying to upgrade a position when the new player could be just a bad as what we have on the roster. No one (outside of your mind) is talking in absolute determinism about new player's prospects.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Actually that's not what people are saying, despite your attempts to continue blaming the fans. What the fans are saying is, "the talent on the roster isn't good enough at x position, they should bring in someone else to see if that player can be better." This team has been crappy for 14 years precisely following your logic. Why bother trying to upgrade a position when the new player could be just a bad as what we have on the roster. No one (outside of your mind) is talking in absolute determinism about new player's prospects. And you contend this team is no better now?
GG Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 And you contend this team is no better now? The team is better now, but still too much will be dependent on EJ progress. That's the whole point, they left almost no room for error if EJ stumbles.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) The team is better now, but still too much will be dependent on EJ progress. That's the whole point, they left almost no room for error if EJ stumbles. I disagree. Leaving no room for EJ to stumble would be to surround him with no weapons and no defense, thus forcing him to win every game with his arm. They've done the opposite. The front office has given EJ outs, ways to win without needing to be perfect. SWAT will clean up mistakes and turn simple gains into explosive ones. The running backs and OL are built to dominate time of possession and move the chains. And the defense, despite the loss of JB and Pettine, is a top 10 unit with an unlimited ceiling. EJ can be mediocre and this team is still built to make the playoffs. Edited July 23, 2014 by GreggyT
RuntheDamnBall Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 You assume that Frank Reich was considered an automatic success before he ever had to fill in for Kelly. Hindsight is awesome. Of course Frank Reich was amazing...after he was amazing. You can't guarantee any QB you draft is going to be another Frank Reich so how can you act like it's some kind of choice the Bills are making to be bad?? All these player discussion devolve into "Why won't the Bills just go out and get someone good?" like it's getting milk at the store. No, I assume that Frank Reich played in a very successful college program and was thought to have some pedigree, not unlike Murray. Hence the reasons why these guys went earlier than the nether regions of the draft. Murray was thought of as a 1-3 round pick the season prior, before suffering a major injury. McCarron and Mettenberger also played at major SEC programs and faced tough defenses week in and week out. Again, undrafted Thad Lewis and 7th rounder Jeff Tuel could prove to be adequate, but the smart money is on the idea that they aren't.
Herb62 Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 This is a great well thought out post, you sir are right on.
voodoo poonani Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 The Bills released him because he refused to restructure his contract. Nix said he was drafting a QB. ESPN write up of Flaming Thumbtacks Owner being a poor winner. Fitz signs 2 year contract with Titans... gets released after one year. Actually, I was wrong about the cash. He got less from them than he would have if he stayed put and took The Bills offer. Like I said, it takes two to tango. I remember the Bud Adams deal. But I didn't see anything in the ESPN article about Fitz refusing a pay cut.
beggar13 Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I say a quick prayer every morning that EJ turns into the QB I thought he would be when we drafted him. I hate hearing that he is off to a slow start at camp!
Wiz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 EJ can be mediocre and this team is still built to make the playoffs. I disagree, last year the good defenses we played had no respect for EJ's ability to make the throws down field and stacked the box. This was a big reason that Spiller's big play ability disappeared in a lot of games. Even if we have the best receiving corps in the league, our passing game will be lousy if we don't have a QB that can deliver the ball. Our defense should be good, but we're not talking 85 Bears or Ravens of the late 90's. I just hope that EJ stays healthy this year. Based on what I saw of him last year, he is indecisive, lacks accuracy, is unable to anticipate his receivers breaks and has poor pocket presence. Based on the long list of QB's we've had with similar problems as rookies, I believe the likelihood he will overcome them is very small. The difference is that EJ has great running ability which can mask these flaws, but is also a reason he is injury prone. I want EJ to have every opportunity to prove himself, yea or nay, so the Bills can stick with him or begin thinking about a backup plan. An injury will keep the team and fans in a holding pattern for another year to find out if he is our "franchise quarterback."
John from Riverside Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I am seeing people make the HUGE mistake of going back as far as the Losman Rob Johnson days and bringing them forward to QB decisions of the now..... - yes those were mistakes - Yes we have been paying for trading away and poor draft picks with QBs for past years But that is not what we are talking about....u cant keep living in the past if you want to move onto be successful in the future.....the question is WHAT COULD WE RECENTLY HAVE DONE other then take EJ manual - Pick Geno over EJ.......W.H.A.T I absolutely think that they did the right thing in taking EJ....and on top of that they traded down and netted us EJ, Woods, and Kiko Alonzo in that draft. I still maintain that EJ Manuel has EVERYTHING to be a successful QB......that they need to continue to groom him.....and they need to continue to biuld the team up around him........ We did the most logical thing.....and in the end its gonna pay off I disagree, last year the good defenses we played had no respect for EJ's ability to make the throws down field and stacked the box. This was a big reason that Spiller's big play ability disappeared in a lot of games. Even if we have the best receiving corps in the league, our passing game will be lousy if we don't have a QB that can deliver the ball. Our defense should be good, but we're not talking 85 Bears or Ravens of the late 90's. I just hope that EJ stays healthy this year. Based on what I saw of him last year, he is indecisive, lacks accuracy, is unable to anticipate his receivers breaks and has poor pocket presence. Based on the long list of QB's we've had with similar problems as rookies, I believe the likelihood he will overcome them is very small. The difference is that EJ has great running ability which can mask these flaws, but is also a reason he is injury prone. I want EJ to have every opportunity to prove himself, yea or nay, so the Bills can stick with him or begin thinking about a backup plan. An injury will keep the team and fans in a holding pattern for another year to find out if he is our "franchise quarterback." All EJ needs to do to make teams pay for that is trust his big physical targets to come up with the ball. That is why we traded for Mike Williams....that is why we drafted Woods and Watkins......he just needs to throw the ball on time and trust that his guy is gonna win that matchup. You start winning those...the run defense will loosen up
Ted William's frozen head Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Let's give in to the idea for a moment that EJ isn't the guy. Did the Bills miss an opportunity with another QB? Listening to Schopp pretty much throw EJ (and Marrone for that matter) under the bus today, I started thinking about what other options there were in 2013 and 2014. Nassib? Bridgewater? Geno Smith? Would you be any more optimistic with these QBs on the Bills right now instead of EJ? To me EJ was the best from an apparently weak class. But also keep in mind that 80% of Bills fans wanted a QB taken in 2013. So the Bills got EJ and the feeling was that at least the Bills are taking a shot. We even got EJ plus Kiko by trading down. But a year later and good feelings are gone. What if we waited till 2014? No Sammy but Manziel at 9? Bortles? Would we be any more guaranteed success with those guys? My point is the Bills really didn't have much choice but take EJ and go all in with him. There was no other QB that was a consensus franchise player in either the 2013 or 2014 draft. Would you have stuck with Fitz for two more years? Sign a free agent? If so, who? Vick? Freeman? Sanchez? How about any QB from this list of 2013 free agents? Again, not only was there no sure bets at QB in either draft, there was no quality free agent QBs to sign in 2013 or 2014 either. So it was going to EJ any way you slice it. PTR We reached for a third round quarterback who played like a third round quarterback. EJ looked "Trent Edwards" terrified by the end of the season.
GG Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I disagree. Leaving no room for EJ to stumble would be to surround him with no weapons and no defense, thus forcing him to win every game with his arm. They've done the opposite. The front office has given EJ outs, ways to win without needing to be perfect. SWAT will clean up mistakes and turn simple gains into explosive ones. The running backs and OL are built to dominate time of possession and move the chains. And the defense, despite the loss of JB and Pettine, is a top 10 unit with an unlimited ceiling. EJ can be mediocre and this team is still built to make the playoffs. In theory, you're correct. But I think that's what jw was alluding to about EJ needing to take the next step. If he's hesitant to make that intermediate throw, the defenses will adjust and take away the run. The team is built for the playoffs, but it will still depend on the QB.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) We reached for a third round quarterback who played like a third round quarterback. EJ looked "Trent Edwards" terrified by the end of the season. This is utter nonsense. Edited July 23, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Ted William's frozen head Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 This is utter nonsense. Well...................it really isn't. Once teams had film on EJ, he became very predictable. I was very encouraged by EJ early on. Once he got hurt, hurt again, hurt again, he started to look, and play like Trent Edwards during his free fall decline. I wish EJ all of the success in the world. I just don't see it happenin'.......
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Well...................it really isn't. Once teams had film on EJ, he became very predictable. I was very encouraged by EJ early on. Once he got hurt, hurt again, hurt again, he started to look, and play like Trent Edwards during his free fall decline. I wish EJ all of the success in the world. I just don't see it happenin'....... I would like to cite the game where EJ played scared. Was it the home Jets game where EJ went 20 of 28 with 2 TDs? Or maybe the Jax game where he went 17 of 24 with 2 TDs?
Tyrod's Tailor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I would like to cite the game where EJ played scared. Was it the home Jets game where EJ went 20 of 28 with 2 TDs? Or maybe the Jax game where he went 17 of 24 with 2 TDs? Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh were 2 awful ones, but your cable must have gone out for those.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh were 2 awful ones, but your cable must have gone out for those. They were bad, but he came back and played well after right after those games. Players have bad games, especially when they are rookies who missed camp. But you are cherry picking the worst games to bolster your position.
Augie Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So the rookie QB was good and bad. That's hardly news. Good and good is Andrew Luck (and even he was less than perfect) and he's a generational type of talent. I'm not saying EJ is going to be the guy, I'm just saying that nothing so far has been too surprising. And my fingers are crossed. I've read some play by play stuff from camp, but how does he really look? Is he any more accurate than last year? It's too soon to matter, I guess, but I'd love some reassurance (even if it may be false).
John from Riverside Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Well...................it really isn't. Once teams had film on EJ, he became very predictable. I was very encouraged by EJ early on. Once he got hurt, hurt again, hurt again, he started to look, and play like Trent Edwards during his free fall decline. I wish EJ all of the success in the world. I just don't see it happenin'....... Or he was a rookie coming off injury?
Tyrod's Tailor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 They were bad, but he came back and played well after right after those games. Players have bad games, especially when they are rookies who missed camp. But you are cherry picking the worst games to bolster your position. I was filling in your cherry pick of his two best games, as you know but chose to ignore. Anyway, EJ is an incredibly easy guy to root for, and i hope like crazy he succeeds, like everybody else here.
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