You herd it hear last Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 The Bills have more talent. Does that open the door for a Manning-like blockbuster QB trade? I know they've invested fully into EJ, and that's OK by me, but if the opportunity came up for a current superstar QB to come here, are we now a more inviting and attractive place to play?
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Anyone satisfied with the backup competition between Tuel, Lewis and Dixon is nuts. Yes, you Promo. The fact that you're making me agree with GG hurts me deeply. You said somewhere "this is conjecture" when GG pointed out that we know Lewis's ceiling and that there's reason not to expect much from Tuel yet. Really? Do you expect big things from Thad Lewis? I like the guy. Really do. Great heart last year and all. But come on man: He's not a guy I want with the keys to the team. And though Tuel has some upside, he's not any great shakes either. The Bills FO made a huge mistake not having a proven backup on this team. I would much rather have Rex Grossman, David Carr, or others as backup and let Tuel settle in as third string than to have all the current third string quality guys competing for a backup spot. Someone above makes the point that keeping Tuel is part of development. OK, I'm fine with that. But I don't want Tuel to be a Vince Wilfork ACL-tackle away from being under center. You know the one thing I've learned from being on TBD since 1998 is that the Bills always should have done the other thing. Sign Rex Grossman? I can imagine the snark if we did.
RuntheDamnBall Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 You know the one thing I've learned from being on TBD since 1998 is that the Bills always should have done the other thing. Sign Rex Grossman? I can imagine the snark if we did. While we're dealing in hypotheticals, I'm pretty sure if they drafted Aaron Murray or Mettenberger or McCarron, and Ross Cockrell had some kind of rookie of the year campaign for some other team, no one would bat an eye. Because late round picks are generally flyers.
GG Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Translation: "Of course I'm right." Can't debate someone who has player evaluation down pat based on some games he saw on TV. I am 100% right in saying that among Lewis, Tuel & Dixon, none are legit NFL starters. So to have each one of the three coming back without bringing in another face is a boneheaded move that this franchise has continually made. Lewis & Dixon were longshots for other teams' No. 3 spots last year, and we are to count on them to be No. 2s? And yes, thanks for your contribution of aligning me and John Adams, like I need another hole in my head.
BigPappy Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 The Bills have more talent. Does that open the door for a Manning-like blockbuster QB trade? I know they've invested fully into EJ, and that's OK by me, but if the opportunity came up for a current superstar QB to come here, are we now a more inviting and attractive place to play? I would have to say yes. Despite what anyone thinks location is not a factor when a player is a FA. There are 2 reasons a player agrees to sign with a team in FA. Money, and surrounding talent. You can offer a guy sick amounts of money, but if he knows he is going to be on a loosing team because a lack of talent to compete he's not signing with your team, not unless the money is obscene like what Mario got. At the same time, take a FA player that just won the Super Bowl. You know the talent level on the team is there,,,,I mean, you just won the Super Bowl! You don't offer enough cash for him to stay, say goodbye, cause he will be gone. BigPappy
Tyrod's Tailor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 You know the one thing I've learned from being on TBD since 1998 is that the Bills always should have done the other thing. You type this as though the Bills are on a 14 year playoff hot streak or something.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) You type this as though the Bills are on a 14 year playoff hot streak or something. I don't know what folks would do without the playoff drought card to toss out. Probably playoff win drought. That's like 20 years now. Edited July 23, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Rocky Landing Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Anyone satisfied with the backup competition between Tuel, Lewis and Dixon is nuts. Yes, you Promo. The fact that you're making me agree with GG hurts me deeply. You said somewhere "this is conjecture" when GG pointed out that we know Lewis's ceiling and that there's reason not to expect much from Tuel yet. Really? Do you expect big things from Thad Lewis? I like the guy. Really do. Great heart last year and all. But come on man: He's not a guy I want with the keys to the team. And though Tuel has some upside, he's not any great shakes either. The Bills FO made a huge mistake not having a proven backup on this team. I would much rather have Rex Grossman, David Carr, or others as backup and let Tuel settle in as third string than to have all the current third string quality guys competing for a backup spot. Someone above makes the point that keeping Tuel is part of development. OK, I'm fine with that. But I don't want Tuel to be a Vince Wilfork ACL-tackle away from being under center. I am 100% right in saying that among Lewis, Tuel & Dixon, none are legit NFL starters. So to have each one of the three coming back without bringing in another face is a boneheaded move that this franchise has continually made. Lewis & Dixon were longshots for other teams' No. 3 spots last year, and we are to count on them to be No. 2s? And yes, thanks for your contribution of aligning me and John Adams, like I need another hole in my head. I think Lewis may very well be underestimated. It's easy to forget that before he became our starter last season, he hadn't even become a Bill until late August, and was pulled off the practice squad in early October. And, when he hit the field, he knew the playbook better than anyone could have hoped. When he won his first game as a starter, he had been off the practice squad less than three weeks. I'm sorry, but that's pretty impressive. That's not just "great heart." That's brains, and ability, as well. It is certainly possible that he has almost reached his ceiling. But, I don't see any reason to just assume that. Quarterbacks can exist in the league for years before getting their opportunity. Lewis got his opportunity in his fourth season- his first in Buffalo- and it was rife with what has to be considered some pretty extreme challenges. And, he stepped up admirably in my opinion. Why should we assume that's as good as he gets? Be that as it may, I have stated on these boards several times that I can't believe anybody would be happy to keep our QB roster the same as last season. Edited July 23, 2014 by Rocky Landing
RuntheDamnBall Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Promo, here's a question for you: Would you have been just as comfortable without Frank Reich, and with, say, Gale Gilbert at #2 and Brian McClure at #3? Because that's really what we're talking about, here, except for that the current starter is far less proven than JK was. I think it's not unreasonable to have hoped that the Bills had done more to address the position. If Lewis turns out to be found money, that's terrific. This still doesn't prove that that's a great strategy.
Tyrod's Tailor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I don't know what folks would do without the playoff drought card to toss out. Probably playoff win drought. That's like 20 years now. Yet another non sequitur from the master of them.
John Adams Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I think Lewis may very well be underestimated. It's easy to forget that before he became our starter last season, he hadn't even become a Bill until late August, and was pulled off the practice squad in early October. And, when he hit the field, he knew the playbook better than anyone could have hoped. When he won his first game as a starter, he had been off the practice squad less than three weeks. I'm sorry, but that's pretty impressive. That's not just "great heart." That's brains, and ability, as well. It is certainly possible that he has almost reached his ceiling. But, I don't see any reason to just assume that. Quarterbacks can exist in the league for years before getting their opportunity. Lewis got his opportunity in his fourth season- his first in Buffalo- and it was rife with what has to be considered some pretty extreme challenges. And, he stepped up admirably in my opinion. Why should we assume that's as good as he gets? Be that as it may, I have stated on these boards several times that I can't believe anybody would be happy to keep our QB roster the same as last season. I love that Thad Lewis somehow managed to beat Miami last year. That said, come on man. Did you watch the guy? He's not the answer unless the question is: "Who's the best 3rd string QB who won 2 games last year?" You can't be serious betting your backup QB spot on Lewis's potential upside.
RK_BillsFan Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I think the answer is, we have to wait out the storm and see what EJ produces. It's really just that simple. And honestly, we don't need a Brady or a Manning. I'd be happy with Alex Smith. If EJ could manage 300 yds a game, and less than 1 int a game, along with staying healthy all season, I think we could be a 10 win a season team, as we stand right now. Our running game is probably when all is said and done, top 10. Our D, if focused a little more on running is probably top 15. If we can keep our offence on the field and minimize mistakes, and have an actually passing attack that could even remotely resemble the year we had Mould and Price go bonkers, i'd be extremely happy. I think too many people want to have super amazing superstars, rather than a team of all B+ characters. Realistically, If you told me that Wattkins, Woods, and Williams all ended up with 900 yards and 7 touchdowns for the season, none of which would be stellar, but all respectable stats, i'd be overjoyed by our accomplishment for the season. To get back on track. QB wise, again, weather the storm, I'd picture you're looking at no less than 2 more years of EJ pending this season.
Wayne Cubed Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So is this thread now, "Okay...If not Thad/Tuel, then who?"
metzelaars_lives Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Let's give in to the idea for a moment that EJ isn't the guy. Did the Bills miss an opportunity with another QB? Listening to Schopp pretty much throw EJ (and Marrone for that matter) under the bus today, I started thinking about what other options there were in 2013 and 2014. Nassib? Bridgewater? Geno Smith? Would you be any more optimistic with these QBs on the Bills right now instead of EJ? To me EJ was the best from an apparently weak class. But also keep in mind that 80% of Bills fans wanted a QB taken in 2013. So the Bills got EJ and the feeling was that at least the Bills are taking a shot. We even got EJ plus Kiko by trading down. But a year later and good feelings are gone. What if we waited till 2014? No Sammy but Manziel at 9? Bortles? Would we be any more guaranteed success with those guys? My point is the Bills really didn't have much choice but take EJ and go all in with him. There was no other QB that was a consensus franchise player in either the 2013 or 2014 draft. Would you have stuck with Fitz for two more years? Sign a free agent? If so, who? Vick? Freeman? Sanchez? How about any QB from this list of 2013 free agents? Again, not only was there no sure bets at QB in either draft, there was no quality free agent QBs to sign in 2013 or 2014 either. So it was going to EJ any way you slice it. PTR I think this is a thoughtful topic and being an eternal Bills apologist I see what you're trying to say but in this case I kind of disagree. Me and my brother were both all about taking Kaepernick in the 2nd round 3 years ago and all about taking Russell Wilson 2 years ago. These were not secret guys. It was extremely arrogant of us to pass up on top round QB's in both of those drafts. With respect to free agents, I agree with you but if EJ sucks this year, it is absolutely time to go the Alex Smith route and get us a guy who can win us 10 games right now. There is WAAAYYYYY too much talent on this roster to be wasted with subpar QB play. That guy very well could be Tony Romo. And I would be all about it.
Kemp Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I prefer Geno because so far he appears to be a better pure passer, but that might change this year.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Let's give in to the idea for a moment that EJ isn't the guy. Did the Bills miss an opportunity with another QB? Listening to Schopp pretty much throw EJ (and Marrone for that matter) under the bus today, I started thinking about what other options there were in 2013 and 2014. Nassib? Bridgewater? Geno Smith? Would you be any more optimistic with these QBs on the Bills right now instead of EJ? To me EJ was the best from an apparently weak class. But also keep in mind that 80% of Bills fans wanted a QB taken in 2013. So the Bills got EJ and the feeling was that at least the Bills are taking a shot. We even got EJ plus Kiko by trading down. But a year later and good feelings are gone. What if we waited till 2014? No Sammy but Manziel at 9? Bortles? Would we be any more guaranteed success with those guys? My point is the Bills really didn't have much choice but take EJ and go all in with him. There was no other QB that was a consensus franchise player in either the 2013 or 2014 draft. Would you have stuck with Fitz for two more years? Sign a free agent? If so, who? Vick? Freeman? Sanchez? How about any QB from this list of 2013 free agents? Again, not only was there no sure bets at QB in either draft, there was no quality free agent QBs to sign in 2013 or 2014 either. So it was going to EJ any way you slice it. PTR Decent points. However, you use the word "other." That presumes EJ was considered a franchise QB, which he was not. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Gugny Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Look no further ... http://www.amazon.com/Who-Took-Cookies-Cookie-Jar/dp/0316820164
Tyrod's Tailor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Lol. This comments ridiculous. If the Bills had done half of what the fans had told them to do the past 14 years the team would've seen the playoffs a while ago. There no exaggeration there, its how pathetic this organization has been. Haloti Ngata over Twatner, anyone?
PromoTheRobot Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Lol. This comments ridiculous. If the Bills had done half of what the fans had told them to do the past 14 years the team would've seen the playoffs a while ago. There no exaggeration there, its how pathetic this organization has been. LOL indeed! The Bills did EXACTLY what the fans wanted...DRAFT A QB with their first pick!! Decent points. However, you use the word "other." That presumes EJ was considered a franchise QB, which he was not. Perhaps I misunderstood. I think Whaley thought EJ had the physical gifts to be a franchise QB but he was going to be a project who was thrust into the starting role by a floor mat. The "others" refer to any other QB in the 2013 draft or free agency. Promo, here's a question for you: Would you have been just as comfortable without Frank Reich, and with, say, Gale Gilbert at #2 and Brian McClure at #3? Because that's really what we're talking about, here, except for that the current starter is far less proven than JK was. I think it's not unreasonable to have hoped that the Bills had done more to address the position. If Lewis turns out to be found money, that's terrific. This still doesn't prove that that's a great strategy. You assume that Frank Reich was considered an automatic success before he ever had to fill in for Kelly. Hindsight is awesome. Of course Frank Reich was amazing...after he was amazing. You can't guarantee any QB you draft is going to be another Frank Reich so how can you act like it's some kind of choice the Bills are making to be bad?? All these player discussion devolve into "Why won't the Bills just go out and get someone good?" like it's getting milk at the store. Edited July 23, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
BillsVet Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Making decisions out of desperation is not a good plan when you're building a NFL team. When Buddy Nix, because he couldn't look bad for re-signing Fitz, subsequently avoided taking a QB like the plague in 2011-12, it set up 2013 and absolutely having to take Manuel. I don't understand why this team, who preaches competition at every position, doesn't like it at the QB position. Manuel has had no competition and the team's gone to lengths to make it so. Same could be said when Fitz was the starter for 2011-12. Same can be said when, upon taking over in 2010, Gailey admitted to Trent being the unquestioned starter. I think senior Bills management is deathly afraid of any QB controversy, and I wouldn't doubt it's the effect of the Flutie-Johnson situation.
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