Okay...if not EJ, then who?

[bills-fan in arizona]

That really wasn't my point. I'm not concerned about competing with the number 2 for this season.. I'm talking about drafting a developmental (and there were several available in rounds 4 or 5 Savage, Murray, McCarron, Mettenberger etc.) I personally liked Murray but it's irrelevant. That's what good teams do even with good qb's on the roster. Would you feel better if we had a Foles, Cousins, Wilson or even a Mallet on our roster? Until you have a franchise guy you have to chase.

 

Because we took Losman 10 years ago and Edwards 7 years ago, you stop taking qb's... I don't understand your point there

 

I believe this is especially important this year because (if EJ struggles) we don't have many options next year given the trade up.

 

 

 

Yeah, that is just more of the same kind of thinking. Do you really think there was any "mid-round" prospect in the 2014 draft that would be markedly better than Thad Lewis with a couple seasons in the NFL, a full season in Buffalo, one training camp in Buffalo (people tend to forget Lewis didn't have the benefit of a Bills training camp in 2013), and 6 starts under his belt? Who did you have in mind? Whatever your answer, are you sure that QB would give you a better shot at winning than Lewis would?

 

Also, the "with no 1st round pick in 2015" just in case EJ fails thing, is kind of faulty too... if it is clear that EJ is not the QB of the Bills future after the 2014 season (personally, I think he would have to regress a ton this season for the Bills to come to that conclusion..he gets 3 seasons, unless he is horribly injured), the Bills can still take that "mid-round" QB next season, that you think will be a cure all this season...you see what I am saying? Franchise QB's are hard to come by....for most teams... more will fail than succeed. If the Bills fall into the trap of simply chasing a QB in the draft every time, they won't get anywhere...remember, JP Losman? First round pick, replaced by that "mid-round QB" drafted 3 years later, Trent Edwards?

 

I suspect, barring some crazy moves by a new owner, if EJ fails, the next Bills long-term starting QB will be the best free-agent QB available in the 2016 off-season.

[voodoo poonani]

Since this is a look back... What I had wished for at the time was that we'd grab Geno Smith (I thought he was #1, Manual was #2) and sit him behind Fitz a year or two. This is all pure speculation, but I felt Fitz could have won us a couple games last year (KC game comes to mind; and cue the "I'm nuts" replies). Fitz should have had no problem picking up a new offense and mentoring the new guy.

 

That said, the choice was made, and EJ is our guy. Whatever light bulb needs to turn on, I hope it does so early enough in this season to get us into the playoffs.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!

[bills1960]

Much of the blame should lie on the fact we gave Fitz our total confidence for two years, without even considering drafting someone during his tenure (like a Wilson or Dalton that could have sat for a year behind him).

 

The only other option that undoubtedly would have been smarter than drafting EJ would have been trading for Alex Smith. Heck, we could have even outbid the Chiefs by just giving the 49ers our first round pick (being that we used it on a QB anyway), and we still would have came away with either Woods, Kiko or both due to the fact that we allegedly "reached" for Kiko. That would have been my route if I were GM; alas, I am not.

Edited July 23, 2014 by bills1960

[BigBuff423]

I agree in general and certainly now that the BILLS have no 1st round pick in 2015, EJ is their guy for better or worse for two more seasons. Also, people forget that EJ was Drafted *knowing* he wasn't ready and not a finished product, that's why they signed Kolb for Kolb to be "the guy" for a year or two while the coaches worked with EJ and gave him time to develop his technique and learn the NFL ways and improve without being thrown to the wolves. Now, I've said before the Draft that the BILLS should give EJ every chance and opportunity to succeed THIS year and if not, for any reason, to get their guy in 2015. However, due to the aforementioned lack of a first round pick, that won't be the case - at least as it appears today. Having said ALLLLLLLLL of that, is it possible that if EJ goes down with another injury or just doesn't have it, that Tuel could take over??? I know, I know, he looked bad last year...but he also had moments of brilliance, ala Flash's long TD in the KC game, and according to reports has looked stellar thus far...I'm not advocating for him to take over EJ at this point nor any moment in the immediate future, but isn't it possible that the BILLS could look to Tuel if EJ falters in some manner or another a few games to five games into the season???

[Dorkington]

Sure, I mean, Brady took over for Bledsoe just fine... but it's not the highest of probability.

[Bill from NYC]

Let's give in to the idea for a moment that EJ isn't the guy. Did the Bills miss an opportunity with another QB? Listening to Schopp pretty much throw EJ (and Marrone for that matter) under the bus today, I started thinking about what other options there were in 2013 and 2014.

 

Nassib? Bridgewater? Geno Smith? Would you be any more optimistic with these QBs on the Bills right now instead of EJ? To me EJ was the best from an apparently weak class. But also keep in mind that 80% of Bills fans wanted a QB taken in 2013.

 

So the Bills got EJ and the feeling was that at least the Bills are taking a shot. We even got EJ plus Kiko by trading down. But a year later and good feelings are gone. What if we waited till 2014? No Sammy but Manziel at 9? Bortles? Would we be any more guaranteed success with those guys?

 

My point is the Bills really didn't have much choice but take EJ and go all in with him. There was no other QB that was a consensus franchise player in either the 2013 or 2014 draft. Would you have stuck with Fitz for two more years? Sign a free agent? If so, who? Vick? Freeman? Sanchez? How about any QB from this list of 2013 free agents?

 

Again, not only was there no sure bets at QB in either draft, there was no quality free agent QBs to sign in 2013 or 2014 either. So it was going to EJ any way you slice it.

 

PTR

Promo, your question is fair. That said, the Bills put themselves in this position by:

1) Not placing enough emphasis on the QB position.

2) Making poor decisions when they did allocate resources to the position (RJ and Losman).

The latter caused moves such as drafting Whitner over Cutler.

 

Again, your question is valid. But if we are to be honest, the Bills sealed their own destiny by devoting their best resources to running backs and the secondary. The damage that Levy/Jauron caused to this team should not be under estimated.

[JohnC]

 

Promo, your question is fair. That said, the Bills put themselves in this position by:

1) Not placing enough emphasis on the QB position.

2) Making poor decisions when they did allocate resources to the position (RJ and Losman).

The latter caused moves such as drafting Whitner over Cutler.

 

Again, your question is valid. But if we are to be honest, the Bills sealed their own destiny by devoting their best resources to running backs and the secondary. The damage that Levy/Jauron caused to this team should not be under estimated.

 

I have little criticism of the trading for RJ or the drafting of Losman. At least this organization attempted to address the critical qb position. More often than not qbs don't work out. There is nothing unusual about that. It seemed that because their selected qbs didn't work out that this organization was frightened to seriously address the position again.

 

Levy/Jauron's problems with respect to the draft were more associated with inept drafting in general and their antiquated football philosophy (which you made reference to). The light and quick approach to team building when the direction of the league was moving toward big and strong approach. Marv Levy was ill-suited for his GM position and the results were predictable. Following up that regime with the Nix regime (admittedly he did better) didn't help this organization get out of its rut of mediocrity.

[GG]

Let's give in to the idea for a moment that EJ isn't the guy. Did the Bills miss an opportunity with another QB? Listening to Schopp pretty much throw EJ (and Marrone for that matter) under the bus today, I started thinking about what other options there were in 2013 and 2014.

 

Nassib? Bridgewater? Geno Smith? Would you be any more optimistic with these QBs on the Bills right now instead of EJ? To me EJ was the best from an apparently weak class. But also keep in mind that 80% of Bills fans wanted a QB taken in 2013.

 

So the Bills got EJ and the feeling was that at least the Bills are taking a shot. We even got EJ plus Kiko by trading down. But a year later and good feelings are gone. What if we waited till 2014? No Sammy but Manziel at 9? Bortles? Would we be any more guaranteed success with those guys?

 

My point is the Bills really didn't have much choice but take EJ and go all in with him. There was no other QB that was a consensus franchise player in either the 2013 or 2014 draft. Would you have stuck with Fitz for two more years? Sign a free agent? If so, who? Vick? Freeman? Sanchez? How about any QB from this list of 2013 free agents?

 

Again, not only was there no sure bets at QB in either draft, there was no quality free agent QBs to sign in 2013 or 2014 either. So it was going to EJ any way you slice it.

 

PTR

 

Yet again false choices. You framed the argument to oil the excuse machine.

 

You cannot throw in 2013 and 2014 in the same conversation, because the circumstances are completely different. Drafting EJ in the first round was a reasonable gamble by the Bills and there's still hope that he will take the reigns. But that doesn't absolve OBD for risking the most critical position on a oft-injured nominal starter and that decision blew up on them in August. Throwing Leinart into the discussion is ridiculous because that was a desperation move with very little alternatives.

 

For the 2014 season, Whaley again took a very high risk approach by not bringing in a seasoned vet to push EJ. The jury is still out on EJ, and I don't know many people who would be comfortable with Lewis & Tuel as the 2nd string. But the biggest risk is that if EJ doesn't pan out, Bills are out of the QB market until 2016. Once Whaley traded out of 2015 first round, I think he should have taken a flyer on a QB in Rds 3-5. At least that would have provided some grooming potential in case EJ falls flat.

 

It's been discussed as nauseam, keep stocking up on QB prospects until you find that guy. I'd much rather take a flyer on a Mettenberger, Murray, McCarron than a Cockrell. Risk vs reward is vastly different.

[Nanker]

I think we missed out on opportunities because of the contract we gave Fitz. Then we scrambled and reached a bit for EJ. EJ was the best option when we drafted, but it was a weak QB year, it appears.

 

For better or worse, we have EJ until the 2016 draft. Until then, I'll be rooting for him to succeed, and hopefully he does.

 

Edit: Adding... Since we don't have a draft pick until 2016, and we're likely not to bring in a sure thing QB in FA. I hope EJ gets every first team snap while healthy. Give him every opportunity for three years, and see what happens. It's not guaranteed success, but it's our best shot.

 

Seriously? No pick till 2016. The situation is more dire than I knew. And please, just exactly is a "Sure Thing QB FA"?

 

Since this is a look back... What I had wished for at the time was that we'd grab Geno Smith (I thought he was #1, Manual was #2) and sit him behind Fitz a year or two. This is all pure speculation, but I felt Fitz could have won us a couple games last year (KC game comes to mind; and cue the "I'm nuts" replies). Fitz should have had no problem picking up a new offense and mentoring the new guy.

 

That said, the choice was made, and EJ is our guy. Whatever light bulb needs to turn on, I hope it does so early enough in this season to get us into the playoffs.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!

I thought Fitz took a hike on his own. He refused The Bills offer and got a ton more cash at Tenny which Bud TwoFingers Adams was happy to give him and flip The Bills off yet another time. It takes two parties to sign a contract. Fitz wasn't willing to be a tutor.

[Dorkington]

Seriously? No pick till 2016. The situation is more dire than I knew. And please, just exactly is a "Sure Thing QB FA"?

 

 

Sorry, forgot the "first round" bit. I will fix.

 

Sure thing QB... someone like Rodgers, Brady, P. Manning, etc... outside of the top 5-10 QBs in the league, any FA QB we pick up will be far from a sure thing.

[voodoo poonani]

I thought Fitz took a hike on his own. He refused The Bills offer and got a ton more cash at Tenny which Bud TwoFingers Adams was happy to give him and flip The Bills off yet another time. It takes two parties to sign a contract. Fitz wasn't willing to be a tutor.

 

Really? I don't recall any of this. Is there a link to a news article?

[BigPappy]

In 2012 the Redskins drafted RG3 with the 2nd overall pick. With an early 4th round pick they took Kirk Cousins and now it seem they have a pretty good insurance policy in case RG3 does a repeat of last year. If RG3 returns to form this season, then the Skins can probably get a first our early 2nd for Cousins.

 

There are ways to prepare for a QB not performing up to expectations.

 

In this year's draft there were some very good mid round prospects that the Bills should have taken a crack at. Aaron Murray went in the 5th, AJ McCarron went in the 5th, Zach Mettenberger went in the 6th round. Why not take a shot at someone just in case EJ fails this season? Then at least you have someone with potential who has been in the system for a year. To me EJ looked very shaky in year one and not having a plan B is a big mistake by Whaley.

Proteus,

I am not sure I understand your logic here. Why take one of these guys when you already have JT of TL in the barn. JT was a prospect player when picked up as a unsigned FA last year. Thad was coming into his second year (or third, i forget), and both now have a full year under the offense. Personally, to me Thad is your guy to come in when your starter gets hurt, he by all accounts thus far, plays better when thrown into the game. He played IMO horribly when he was taking 1st rep snaps after EJ went down. As for JT, last year was his rookie year. As an undrafted FA signing with little to no experience, did we really think he would preform well in his first NFL start. I know I didn't. My point is, we really don't know what we have with JT yet. I am not saying that he will be a great QB, or that he will be a good one for that matter. I'm just a fan, what the hell do i know about assessing his talent. But... he's a 2nd year pro now and by all media accounts anyway...is looking like he is taking that next step in his progression as a QB. So the question is, why waste the draft pick on another "prospect" QB when you already have one maybe two already?

 

BigPappy

Edited July 23, 2014 by BigPappy

[Nanker]

Really? I don't recall any of this. Is there a link to a news article?

The Bills released him because he refused to restructure his contract. Nix said he was drafting a QB.

ESPN write up of Flaming Thumbtacks Owner being a poor winner.

Fitz signs 2 year contract with Titans... gets released after one year.

Actually, I was wrong about the cash. He got less from them than he would have if he stayed put and took The Bills offer.

Like I said, it takes two to tango.

[GG]

So the question is, why waste the draft pick on another "prospect" QB when you already have one maybe two already?

 

BigPappy

 

Because the No. 2, 3, 4 guys in camp now are virtually interchangeable. You would not feel comfortable with any of these 3 to play more than 3 games. So why the need to have three of the same on the roster. The reason you bring in someone else is to add optionality and increase the odds that you may hit on a decent backup or even hit a home run with a potential starter.

Edited July 23, 2014 by GG

[PromoTheRobot]

Yet again false choices. You framed the argument to oil the excuse machine.

 

You cannot throw in 2013 and 2014 in the same conversation, because the circumstances are completely different. Drafting EJ in the first round was a reasonable gamble by the Bills and there's still hope that he will take the reigns. But that doesn't absolve OBD for risking the most critical position on a oft-injured nominal starter and that decision blew up on them in August. Throwing Leinart into the discussion is ridiculous because that was a desperation move with very little alternatives.

 

For the 2014 season, Whaley again took a very high risk approach by not bringing in a seasoned vet to push EJ. The jury is still out on EJ, and I don't know many people who would be comfortable with Lewis & Tuel as the 2nd string. But the biggest risk is that if EJ doesn't pan out, Bills are out of the QB market until 2016. Once Whaley traded out of 2015 first round, I think he should have taken a flyer on a QB in Rds 3-5. At least that would have provided some grooming potential in case EJ falls flat.

 

It's been discussed as nauseam, keep stocking up on QB prospects until you find that guy. I'd much rather take a flyer on a Mettenberger, Murray, McCarron than a Cockrell. Risk vs reward is vastly different.

 

You didn't explain why my logic was faulty. Just that the Bills "should have done better." But explain how? I described how the draft/free agency choices the last two seasons were poor so there was nothing the Bills could do but pick projects and cross their fingers. Just because they didn't pick your favorite long shot doesn't make them wrong.

 

As for selecting Cockrell over yet another QB project, Cockrell has a real shot at contributing this year unlike the QB's you mentioned. You still need 52 other players to have a football team.

 

Promo, your question is fair. That said, the Bills put themselves in this position by:

1) Not placing enough emphasis on the QB position.

2) Making poor decisions when they did allocate resources to the position (RJ and Losman).

The latter caused moves such as drafting Whitner over Cutler.

 

Again, your question is valid. But if we are to be honest, the Bills sealed their own destiny by devoting their best resources to running backs and the secondary. The damage that Levy/Jauron caused to this team should not be under estimated.

 

You do understand that the Bills have had several regimes in place the last 14 years, right? It's not the same people drafting Losman and Edwards.

 

2013 was the first season that Doug Whaley had any real input in the draft so to complain about what happened 2012 and earlier is pointless. You can't change the past. You can only go forward. If Whaley was going to start developing his QB in 2013, EJ Manuel was his only option.

Edited July 23, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[BigPappy]

They should have taken an insurance QB in the mid round this year. There where plenty available and I think it was a huge mistake for them not to take one. Say for example EJ fails this year and we end up 4-12. With no 1st round next year we are in big trouble. Taking a mid round this year... well at least we'd have something going into 2015 (if EJ fails of course.)

Who say's we are in trouble if EJ goes 4-12 this year? He played in 10 games last year, two of which he didn't finish. So for argument sake, he has played in 9 "full" games. That's one game more than half a season. Who's to say he doesn't come into year 3 and light it up with a full season of experience behind him.

The average rookie QB takes 3 years to develop into a good starting QB. Are there exception...of course, both on the good side and the bad. Peyton Manning is one that obviously comes to mind on the good side. He was great from the get go. Then you have a guy like Vince Young, he played pretty well his rookie year, but tanked it after. He couldn't turn the corner. But let's name a few QB's that started out on the bench because they needed to develop, or started out their career playing just okay football and are now considered some of the greatest QB's of all time. Hmmm.... Brett Favre, Drew Brees, Tom Brady.

So tired of people yelling fire in the crowded theater just because a player starts out slow. When EJ was drafted, the FO said that he would need to develop. He hasn't even started his 2nd season and you are looking for his replacement. Give me a break! Nothing against sharing opinions, but use some logic........PLEASE!

 

BigPappy

Edited July 23, 2014 by BigPappy

[GG]

You didn't explain why my logic was faulty. Just that the Bills "should have done better." But explain how? I described how the draft/free agency choices the last two seasons were poor so there was nothing the Bills could do but pick projects and cross their fingers. Just because they didn't pick your favorite long shot doesn't make them wrong.

 

As for selecting Cockrell over yet another QB project, Cockrell has a real shot at contributing this year unlike the QB's you mentioned. You still need 52 other players to have a football team.

 

Your logic is faulty because, as usual you provide false choices as the options. The issue is not whether they picked EJ over Geno, but how they handled the QB position last year and this year. In that regard, the individual player is irrelevant, because in the grand scheme, Bills are all in with one player who still needs time and is far from a sure NFL starter and the depth behind him is pathetic.

 

It's great to hear that Cockrell could contribute this year, only if he can beat out last year's UDFA for the position. Which is the whole point that people have been harping on about roster management. You can get a Ross Cockrell in rounds 5 - UDFA fairly regularly, and odds say that you should take a flyer on a developmental QB over a 4th string DB in round 4.

[PromoTheRobot]

Your logic is faulty because, as usual you provide false choices as the options. The issue is not whether they picked EJ over Geno, but how they handled the QB position last year and this year. In that regard, the individual player is irrelevant, because in the grand scheme, Bills are all in with one player who still needs time and is far from a sure NFL starter and the depth behind him is pathetic.

 

It's great to hear that Cockrell could contribute this year, only if he can beat out last year's UDFA for the position. Which is the whole point that people have been harping on about roster management. You can get a Ross Cockrell in rounds 5 - UDFA fairly regularly, and odds say that you should take a flyer on a developmental QB over a 4th string DB in round 4.

 

I'm sorry but you have to explain in detail how the Bills "mishandled" the quarterback position. Where they supposed to draft 5 QBs? We're they supposed to draft another project as insurance? How is that any different than Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel? At least Lewis had some NFL experience. It seems you are playing the game of overvaluing anyone not on the Bills roster.

Edited July 23, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[BigPappy]

Because the No. 2, 3, 4 guys in camp now are virtually interchangeable. You would not feel comfortable with any of these 3 to play more than 3 games. So why the need to have three of the same on the roster. The reason you bring in someone else is to add optionality and increase the odds that you may hit on a decent backup or even hit a home run with a potential starter.

GG,

I understand your logic, and don't necessarily disagree, but that wasn't really the point of my reply. As a prospect draft choice he like your previous years draft choice will need to develop which puts him a year behind your "prospect" QB draft choice from the previous year. But i was commenting on the posters logic of using a prospect draft choice as a replacement to EJ should he fail this year. Your chances of taking a 5th or 6th round draft choice that you target as a QB prospect and having him learn the offense well enough to start his following year are so remote it's not even funny. It happens, but not often. By using that logic, you end up rotating QB's every couple of years with no continuity and no one has a real chance to develop and since this team has played at the level of mediocrity for the last 15 years, they don't really have the opportunity to draft that Home run QB as you called it.

 

BigPappy

[GG]

 

I'm sorry but you have to explain in detail how the Bills "mishandled" the quarterback position. Where they supposed to draft 5 QBs? We're they supposed to draft another project as insurance? How is that any different than Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel? At least Lewis had some NFL experience. It seems you are playing the game of overvaluing anyone not on the Bills roster.

 

Let's start with the premise that OBD through various coaching staffs has been awful in QB evaluation. Maybe it's in the water?

 

And yes, Bills should have brought in at least one-two more bodies in for greater optionality. They know Dixon's ceiling. They know Lewis' ceiling. Tuel, more of an unknown. And that's the maddening part. If they can get a Lewis/Dixon type of talent as bargain basement replacement at end of August in 2013, they can certainly do that in 2014. That's why you bring in another prospect to give you more options. Lewis having NFL experience means squat, when that experience shows he's merely serviceable. I'm overvaluing anyone not on the Bills roster because I'm not confident of the talent on the Bills roster and the goal is to keep bringing in players who may provide a surprise. And looking at the early returns from camp, it appears that the quality of No. 2-3-4 QBs sucks (just like many would have predicted in March)