Jail is so unfair

[Deranged Rhino]

Of people really think pot is the issue. It's not. That's my point about bpeople being naive. They don't realize how big the cocaine, crack, heroine, and meth problems are in this country. Ridiculously large.

 

And yet, the reality of the numbers don't reflect that. Since 1996, the arrests for marijuana far exceed those of harder drugs. Only 17.5% of arrests in that time period are for sales or distribution while 82.5% are arrests for possession. Of those arrested for possession, 42.1% of those offenders are for weed. Only 21% for heroin, cocaine and other derivatives COMBINED.

 

Those numbers are shocking. And directly from the FBI / DoJ.

[mrags]

 

 

And yet, the reality of the numbers don't reflect that. Since 1996, the arrests for marijuana far exceed those of harder drugs. Only 17.5% of arrests in that time period are for sales or distribution while 82.5% are arrests for possession. Of those arrested for possession, 42.1% of those offenders are for weed. Only 21% for heroin, cocaine and other derivatives COMBINED.

 

Those numbers are shocking. And directly from the FBI / DoJ.

again. Because law enforcement arrests and charges these guys with anything they can to get them off the streets.

 

If you really don't think the drug dealers, weed, cole, heroin or whatever, don't use brute force, violence, and any means necessary to protect their territory I don't know what to tell you. Gang violence is mostly sparked by drugs and drug territory.

 

[Deranged Rhino]

again. Because law enforcement arrests and charges these guys with anything they can to get them off the streets.

 

I have no doubt that a percentage of possession arrests account for that very factor. But it doesn't explain the massive difference in arrests for possession versus distribution, or weed for harder drugs. The numbers also don't support your view that drugs and violence are rampant in the United States, if anything they show the opposite is true. Are there drug dealers and gangs in America? Absolutely. But to assume that the majority of arrests are gangbangers or pushers is just simply not true.

 

You have a very narrow focus on this issue and are failing to see the larger picture, but I get it because your job offers a distinct viewpoint on the issue. Take a step back and look at the whole picture, I think you might be surprised.

[BuffaloBill]

 

 

I have no doubt that a percentage of possession arrests account for that very factor. But it doesn't explain the massive difference in arrests for possession versus distribution, or weed for harder drugs. The numbers also don't support your view that drugs and violence are rampant in the United States, if anything they show the opposite is true. Are there drug dealers and gangs in America? Absolutely. But to assume that the majority of arrests are gangbangers or pushers is just simply not true.

 

You have a very narrow focus on this issue and are failing to see the larger picture, but I get it because your job offers a distinct viewpoint on the issue. Take a step back and look at the whole picture, I think you might be surprised.

 

What are your sources or the basis for your conclusions?

[mrags]

 

 

What are your sources or the basis for your conclusions?

to add to this.

 

 

It's pretty hard to hide pounds and pounds of drugs. When the place gets raided it usually sticks. It's easy to throw a gun in the River tho.

 

These guys aren't stupid. They know what will put them in prison for 5 years and what will give them life.

 

People are being naive again.

Edited July 25, 2014 by mrags

[Deranged Rhino]

What are your sources or the basis for your conclusions?

 

Numerous, but for actual arrest figures and statistics the FBI and the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Both have excellent statistics with some analysis and projections.

 

to add to this.

 

It's pretty hard to hide pounds and pounds of drugs. When the place gets raided it usually sticks. It's easy to throw a gun in the River tho.

 

These guys aren't stupid. They know what will put them in prison for 5 years and what will give them life.

 

People are being naive again.

 

You keep making this argument but it doesn't add up. If what you were saying were true, that the skewed numbers were the result of bad guys copping a plea or because the DA can't make a murder/battery/et al stick, then you would expect the violent crime rate to still be rising. Instead the opposite has happened over the past decade.

 

The murder rate hasn't gone up, only the amount of people arrested for possession. In fact, violent crime (not arrests, reported acts of violence) has dropped significantly. The US still has the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation, but it's dropped from 24+ million to 14+ million in the past decade. The hard data just doesn't back up your theory.

 

Is it possible that harsher sentencing for possession has put some guys behind bars before they could do bad things? Absolutely. Is it possible that's the reason violent crime rates have dropped to historic lows? You'd have to be a mathamagician to make that case, but it might be possible. Even if you could finagle the numbers to win that point, think about the ramifications. You'd be justifying incarcerating everyone who's caught with weed/coke/heroin (not for sale but for consumption) in order to stop the few who might end up becoming violent offenders.

 

That's not how our justice system is designed to work. It's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, isn't it?

[mrags]

Hey man. You can believe whatever you want to.

[CountryCletus]

Hold on... There aren't drugs are there?? It's illegal...

[Fingon]

again. Because law enforcement arrests and charges these guys with anything they can to get them off the streets.

 

If you really don't think the drug dealers, weed, cole, heroin or whatever, don't use brute force, violence, and any means necessary to protect their territory I don't know what to tell you. Gang violence is mostly sparked by drugs and drug territory.

The only reason drugs are expensive is because of the war on drugs. If you made drugs legal gangs couldn't making money off selling them. It's that simple. Fighting the war on drugs means we WANT violence in our streets, it means we WANT addicts to steal to buy drugs. Do you think your local heroin junkie steals for the hell of it? He steals so he doesn't go into withdrawal.

 

It's like some people never even heard of prohibition.

[Buftex]

 

 

You have a very narrow focus on this issue and are failing to see the larger picture, but I get it because your job offers a distinct viewpoint on the issue. Take a step back and look at the whole picture, I think you might be surprised.

 

I think you are talking to a wall on this one...

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Of people really think pot is the issue. It's not. That's my point about bpeople being naive. They don't realize how big the cocaine, crack, heroine, and meth problems are in this country. Ridiculously large.

sure thats a problem too, but

 

3/4 's of a Million people arrested for a marijuana law violations (each year?)

 

 

(Total Annual Drug Arrests in the US, by Type)

(2012) Of the 1,552,432 arrests for drug law violations in 2012, 82.2% (1,276,099) were for possession of a controlled substance. Only 17.8% (276,333) were for the sale or manufacturing of a drug. - See more at: http://www.drugwarfa...h.WbItE3SI.dpuf

Edited July 25, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[mrags]

sure thats a problem too, but

 

3/4 's of a Million people arrested for a marijuana law violations (each year?)

 

 

(Total Annual Drug Arrests in the US, by Type)

(2012) Of the 1,552,432 arrests for drug law violations in 2012, 82.2% (1,276,099) were for possession of a controlled substance. Only 17.8% (276,333) were for the sale or manufacturing of a drug. - See more at: http://www.drugwarfa...h.WbItE3SI.dpuf

so what your saying is that people who get arrested for possession are just junkies and don't ever perform other crimes and the small amount that are arrested for distribution are much worse and don't account for enough of the crime out there??

 

You lost me.

 

How about this... I know the kind of people that get arrested seeing I walk among 2,200 of them on a daily basis. I'll believe my own eyes an ears.

 

Anyone else that takes some articles written by some random person and have no idea if it's actually true or if it even can be related.

 

Fwiw I was speaking with my porter today who's not in a gang and not in for murder. And he agreed with my take that about 70% or more of incarcerated in the state are involved in gangs. He also agreed that at least 50% of them would have probably murdered someone for sure regardless if they were actually arrested for it or not. He also said that extortion, prostitution and the practice of selling women into prostitution is ridiculously large. Not like small time stuff but like real life version of the movie Taken. But most people in their cushy little lives probably doesn't think that happens nearly as much as it does. Again, this is all coming from am actual inmate in the prison who's been there since 2000.

[DC Tom]

How about this... I know the kind of people that get arrested seeing I walk among 2,200 of them on a daily basis. I'll believe my own eyes an ears.

 

You work in a high-security environment though, right? If so, I'd expect that you're biased...the people you see incarcerated in a maximum security prison aren't representative of people arrested country-wide for whatever reason.

 

Not that I'm doubting your experience, or invalidating it. Just pointing out that you and BillsFan could be quoting numbers from contexts so wildly different that they're virtually incomparable.

[mrags]

Actually not Tom. I've worked in minimum security shock camps and it's no different. And I am 100% aware that medium security prisons have murderers, racists, armed robbers.

 

So if your argument is that because of my line of work I deal with criminals all day regardless of what kind of setting... Then I agree. And tell you that what's in prison doesn't scratch the surface of what's still out on the streets.

 

If your argument is that in a Max prison, we get only hardened criminals arrested for the most heinous things, I'll tell you the difference between a medium and a Max is nothing. The life sentence would be the only thing that max prison is going to add but my argument the whole time has been that criminals arrested for drug crimes are generally in gangs, and regardless what gang, if your in them, there's a very good chance you have committed murder. As I stated, my porter confirmed today his belief that probably 50% of the gang members in today for even things as small as drugs, have done so. And that was a low estimate on his end.

 

He's there 24 hours a day and knows who's who in the jail. He's not in a gang and is in for armed robbery and stayed even from a prisoner standpoint, the gangs have gotten out of control and they run the states prison system.

 

My point all along.

[Sweet Lou]

DNA Testing is done at our facility often; Somtimes once a week. Our judicial system, which includes the FBI do not for the hell of it decide to random DNA test some run of the mill potheads. These people are using DNA to solve crimes, and some of the crimes they are working on even surprise some of us.

 

DNA Testing for what it's worth, released a man at our facility for a crime he did not committ. He did over 20 years and for some reason he did it quietly and professionally. I know if I was innocent and spent that much time in jail I would probably be a dick.

I think the LIfetime Channel is working on a movie about his incarceration and the "set-up" that put him behind bars.

 

One day years ago I was eyeballing him just because I could and all staff employees had a great report with this guy. After he seen me eyeballing him he approached me and simply said: "Lou, I didn't do it" My simple reply was: "I never said you did"

 

Guys, Mrags is correct. A lot of these guys already incarcerated have committed multiple crimes in NY and other states before they got arrested and convicted in NYS. I have seen men in the past who think they are going home, but when they get to the administration building, the long arm of the law is waiting for them and they have no idea that they are even there. And when the arrest is made in our lobby, the look on their face is priceless and that look usually tells the rest of the story.

 

For the previous posters, the following posters, and the un-posters; Jail is supposed to be unfair.

If you consider the victims and their families and the grief that they have suffered, only then will you begin to think like us. As in football; There are two teams in jail and I'll let you readers figure out who the green team is. I'll give you all a clue; Most of the green team do not fit or can they function in our society.

 

My advice to those who post without knowing all the facts. Take the test and join the blue team. It will be an eye opener and a learning experience you will never forget. Or read the book "NewJack"

But keep in mind, this author only had a year on the job when he quit to write the book.

 

Lou

[DJasper Probincrux III]

Honestly, I know you have more experience dealing with these things, but from 30,000 feet, I don't really care about a prisoner's willingness to reform, if it's an opt-in program, it's destined to fail.

What part of successful life isn't an opt-in program?

[mrags]

Thanks Lou. Glad you chimed in here. Just like inside the walls, we stick together.

 

I actually haven't read that book but I was told an old Sgt of mine from Sullivan was mentioned in it by name when he was an officer.

 

I sent you a PM a whole back. Asking what prison you work at. I think I can tell, especially base on your story (I think) but shoot me over a PM if you get a chance.

 

Oh, and just like many other things we argue about on this site.... I strongly believe that no matter what, people won't really believe what we say anyway but hey, I keep trying because we gotta get some recognition somehow. Mine is just trying to open some people's eyes as much as I can to let them know how good the bad guys actually have it, and how bad the good guys do sometimes. Of course not all the time, but when things go bad.

[ExiledInIllinois]

"...Storm the walls around this prison, leave the inmates, free the guards!..."

 

Just heard this song coming into work... Seger song you don't hear too often played on the radio.

[CountryCletus]

Actually not Tom. I've worked in minimum security shock camps and it's no different. And I am 100% aware that medium security prisons have murderers, racists, armed robbers.

 

So if your argument is that because of my line of work I deal with criminals all day regardless of what kind of setting... Then I agree. And tell you that what's in prison doesn't scratch the surface of what's still out on the streets.

 

If your argument is that in a Max prison, we get only hardened criminals arrested for the most heinous things, I'll tell you the difference between a medium and a Max is nothing. The life sentence would be the only thing that max prison is going to add but my argument the whole time has been that criminals arrested for drug crimes are generally in gangs, and regardless what gang, if your in them, there's a very good chance you have committed murder. As I stated, my porter confirmed today his belief that probably 50% of the gang members in today for even things as small as drugs, have done so. And that was a low estimate on his end.

 

He's there 24 hours a day and knows who's who in the jail. He's not in a gang and is in for armed robbery and stayed even from a prisoner standpoint, the gangs have gotten out of control and they run the states prison system.

 

My point all along.

 

I think what Tom was saying is that stats coming from arrests and those incarcerated are different... Two people arguing similar arguments from different perspectives... I totally agree with you, and I thought that everything being discussed was based off of incarcerated individuals, not all arrests...

 

DNA Testing is done at our facility often; Somtimes once a week. Our judicial system, which includes the FBI do not for the hell of it decide to random DNA test some run of the mill potheads. These people are using DNA to solve crimes, and some of the crimes they are working on even surprise some of us.

 

DNA Testing for what it's worth, released a man at our facility for a crime he did not committ. He did over 20 years and for some reason he did it quietly and professionally. I know if I was innocent and spent that much time in jail I would probably be a dick.

I think the LIfetime Channel is working on a movie about his incarceration and the "set-up" that put him behind bars.

 

One day years ago I was eyeballing him just because I could and all staff employees had a great report with this guy. After he seen me eyeballing him he approached me and simply said: "Lou, I didn't do it" My simple reply was: "I never said you did"

 

Guys, Mrags is correct. A lot of these guys already incarcerated have committed multiple crimes in NY and other states before they got arrested and convicted in NYS. I have seen men in the past who think they are going home, but when they get to the administration building, the long arm of the law is waiting for them and they have no idea that they are even there. And when the arrest is made in our lobby, the look on their face is priceless and that look usually tells the rest of the story.

 

For the previous posters, the following posters, and the un-posters; Jail is supposed to be unfair.

If you consider the victims and their families and the grief that they have suffered, only then will you begin to think like us. As in football; There are two teams in jail and I'll let you readers figure out who the green team is. I'll give you all a clue; Most of the green team do not fit or can they function in our society.

 

My advice to those who post without knowing all the facts. Take the test and join the blue team. It will be an eye opener and a learning experience you will never forget. Or read the book "NewJack"

But keep in mind, this author only had a year on the job when he quit to write the book.

 

Lou

 

We do DNA on all inmates in PA as well... It's great to tell some boot crook that he's gotta go get his DNA taken... That look on their face is all the confession I need... Lol- HILARIOUS!!!!

 

Random side note... I hate the phrase "victimless crime". I know it hasn't been stated here yet, or at least I haven't seen it... But no crime is victimless...

[mrags]

For every inmate there's at least one victim.