Gugny Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 as long as prisoners are respectful, to themselves and others and don't cause problems, they are treated with respect. I wont say that all of them fail to return to society. It happens. Very rare but it happens. But most of them don't. When I was at the drug treatment center/shock camp a a Drill Instructor, I can tell you that the return rate was in the 70% range. There were times in the 6 months that I worked there I saw parolees 2 times and it's a 97 day program. Yiu can take that however you want. I'm some cases, my best parolee of the 70 person group, my platoon leader, would come back. In other cases, my platoon leader would drop out of the program. When I showed up at Attica I saw him in the special housing unit. He was restricted do to him throwing his own feces on officers. He was my best one at shock camp. My best one. And people want to ask why we have trust issues towards inmates. Because one minute, yiur most trusted inmate on the block, can be your best one there, the next minute he could take a broom handle to your face. Cletus has it right on. No one can really say until they have experienced it. And I respect every bit of what you and Cletus are saying. I'm just wondering aloud (kind of aloud since you really can't "hear" me, but you get the gist) whether a different approach - not necessarily the personal approach/interaction by COs, but an entirely new philosophy, - would help improve the rate of returns. I think a lot of it is substance abuse and mental illness, myself. But again ... these are just guesses from someone on the outside looking in. I want to make it abundantly clear that I have the utmost respect for COs and their families. This is in no way a knock on you guys. I hope you know that.
CountryCletus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 And I respect every bit of what you and Cletus are saying. I'm just wondering aloud (kind of aloud since you really can't "hear" me, but you get the gist) whether a different approach - not necessarily the personal approach/interaction by COs, but an entirely new philosophy, - would help improve the rate of returns. I think a lot of it is substance abuse and mental illness, myself. But again ... these are just guesses from someone on the outside looking in. I want to make it abundantly clear that I have the utmost respect for COs and their families. This is in no way a knock on you guys. I hope you know that. There are so many resources committed to reforming crooks these days it's a shame to see how everything goes down... Inmates are evaluated thoroughly... From between their ears, to their education, to the type of crime they committed... Based on what I mentioned, and more, they are given a plan... Drop out of school?? Here's your GED program... Bat S HIT crazy??? Here's the shrink.... Touch kids??? There are groups for that... But the thing is, they aren't automatically enrolled into them. They must REQUEST to be put into them... And there is a waiting list... Now the catch... In the great COMMONWEALTH of PA.... Of an inmate wishes I be considered for parole or pre-release, he needs to complete all the required programming- which means the inmate has to take the initiative to complete them as prescribed.... Absolutely, there are a huge majority of inmates that skate through and are get released... Only to recommit and return in short order... I think the failure is between the ears of those people, not on the system... The only system that 100% guarantees inmates won't reoffend .....
mrags Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I know you mean no disrespect Gug. There's no answer to this problem. Society practically encourages it. Unemployment, free health care. It's easier and more profitable to do nothing if your a scumbag and be well off more than others that work. I wanna say it heard somewhere that an unemployed person taking advantage of all the government programs essentially makes over $55k a year. Why work when you can just do that? And on top of it, it's easy to sell drugs, so double up while your at it. That's the mindset of most. I'm sure I'll start hearing the flaming now. Of people don't like being broke or think the minimum wage should be increased, find a job or a better job. The taxpayers were never intended to support the unemployed. It makes our society look more and more like Communism every day. Edited July 22, 2014 by mrags
The Big Cat Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 forcing them to do the program doesn't work either. There's not a problem with the program. The ones that want to succeed at it, succeed. The problem is with the inmates. Most of them don't want it. Most of them want to be back on the street with their boys. Selling drugs. Shooting people. Flames... Waiting for flames... Cletus and Rags: are you guys affiliate with private or public institutions? Or both. Personally, I think the concept of a prison-for-profit is a crime itself. Just being honest.
CountryCletus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Cletus and Rags: are you guys affiliate with private or public institutions? Or both. Personally, I think the concept of a prison-for-profit is a crime itself. Just being honest. State employee... Would never work for a privatized institution... Please explain prison for profit...
The Big Cat Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 State employee... Would never work for a privatized institution... Please explain prison for profit... http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/21/john_oliver_prison_segment_on_last_week_tonight_is_one_you_should_watch.html My views on this were pretty well formed before he lambasted them Sunday. But he makes a pretty good case against privatizing prisons.
CountryCletus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/21/john_oliver_prison_segment_on_last_week_tonight_is_one_you_should_watch.html My views on this were pretty well formed before he lambasted them Sunday. But he makes a pretty good case against privatizing prisons. Now there is one guy who shouldn't be allowed to report ANYTHING as news.... Granted, I'm sure a lot of people got a chuckle out of his show, but most probably walked away thinking that they know what's really up... Privatization of prisons is horrible... You pay your staff barely over minimum wage, cut every corner as far as any type of rehabilitation, and they charge the state top dollar to house them... Granted, it alleviates the state from any lawsuits that the inmates may file, which is something that people outside of corrections have no idea about.... For example... I am named in 2 lawsuits currently... Why? Because I do my job... In ages have nothing but time to plot and plan... I don't care what anyone thinks about my next statement: without putting a percentage on it- as I have stated before, some inmates are being housed for relatively petty crimes, learn from their mistakes and get out to become a productive member of society... Most are complete turds... Wastes of life.... Lowest form of human... I don't know how else to say it... I haven't seen much if any of it from TBD, but there are people that actually defend these inmates... Feel sorry for their living conditions... The overwhelming feeling of entitlement that these inmates possess are mainly due to upper management... The kinder, gentler prison system.... There have been recent occurrences where an inmate has assaulted a staff member, and he was not taken to the restricted housing unit.... From upper management at each facility, all the way to the top at state level, they feel if they cater to these scum bags, they will be quiet and go along for the ride... Sorry for the tangent...
The Big Cat Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Now there is one guy who shouldn't be allowed to report ANYTHING as news.... Granted, I'm sure a lot of people got a chuckle out of his show, but most probably walked away thinking that they know what's really up... Privatization of prisons is horrible... You pay your staff barely over minimum wage, cut every corner as far as any type of rehabilitation, and they charge the state top dollar to house them... Granted, it alleviates the state from any lawsuits that the inmates may file, which is something that people outside of corrections have no idea about.... For example... I am named in 2 lawsuits currently... Why? Because I do my job... In ages have nothing but time to plot and plan... I don't care what anyone thinks about my next statement: without putting a percentage on it- as I have stated before, some inmates are being housed for relatively petty crimes, learn from their mistakes and get out to become a productive member of society... Most are complete turds... Wastes of life.... Lowest form of human... I don't know how else to say it... I haven't seen much if any of it from TBD, but there are people that actually defend these inmates... Feel sorry for their living conditions... The overwhelming feeling of entitlement that these inmates possess are mainly due to upper management... The kinder, gentler prison system.... There have been recent occurrences where an inmate has assaulted a staff member, and he was not taken to the restricted housing unit.... From upper management at each facility, all the way to the top at state level, they feel if they cater to these scum bags, they will be quiet and go along for the ride... Sorry for the tangent... Well, you may not agree with his politics, but what data did he present in the report that runs counter to what you just shared yourself?
CountryCletus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Well, you may not agree with his politics, but what data did he present in the report that runs counter to what you just shared yourself? Get back with you when I have time- don't want to half ass my response
Deranged Rhino Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 From this past Sunday but seemed relevant in this thread: NSF Language
mrags Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 New York State is State. There are no or profit correctional facilities in New York to my knowledge. At least on a prison level. Maybe jail level.
BuffaloBill Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Seems to me that the system has never even one to reform or deter people from crime. Are there exceptions, sure. I would bet the data over a long period of time shows high recidivism and it is likely higher in the past two decades due to the proliferation of drugs.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Seems to me that the system has never even one to reform or deter people from crime. Are there exceptions, sure. I would bet the data over a long period of time shows high recidivism and it is likely higher in the past two decades due to the proliferation of drugs War on Drugs. Fixed
mrags Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Fixed what war??? You mean the one where Cuomo closed down 9 correctional facilities over the past 3 years to eliminate state spending. Meanwhile the ones that are open are subject to double bunked cells for inmates, and overcrowding which has led to increased assaults on staff and inmates. http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/02/new_york_state_announces_it_will_close_4_prisons_including_1_in_wayne_county.html Less inmates in the state??? Sure, let's just let the drug offenders walk out early to save money, let's just let the Rapist of a child out into public. http://www.wgrz.com/story/news/local/west-seneca/2014/02/12/state-places-sex-offenders-in-group-home/5437007/ Have fun with those stories everyone. Try and tell me I'm being a little too crazy about this subject after reading and watching this.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 what war??? You mean the one where Cuomo closed down 9 correctional facilities over the past 3 years to eliminate state spending. Meanwhile the ones that are open are subject to double bunked cells for inmates, and overcrowding which has led to increased assaults on staff and inmates. http://www.syracuse....yne_county.html Less inmates in the state??? Sure, let's just let the drug offenders walk out early to save money, let's just let the Rapist of a child out into public. http://www.wgrz.com/...p-home/5437007/ Have fun with those stories everyone. Try and tell me I'm being a little too crazy about this subject after reading and watching this. That's in no way, or in no shape, the point I was making. To deny the war on drugs and its policies have played a significant role in the fact the US now leads the world in the number of inmates is to live in fantasy land. The "proliferation of drugs" as the cause is a myth. That was the point I was making.
mrags Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 That's in no way, or in no shape, the point I was making. To deny the war on drugs and its policies have played a significant role in the fact the US now leads the world in the number of inmates is to live in fantasy land. The "proliferation of drugs" as the cause is a myth. That was the point I was making. yes and no. It's all hand in hand. Looking at it from a large scale. If not for the drugs in this country, the crime would definately be lower. Murders would be down. The amount of people locked up would decrease. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't continue somehow. But there's no secret that prior to 9-11 the government and state wide resources were pooled at the drug game and gangs across America. Then 9-11 hit and all the resources then went to the war on terror. Kind of like the little kid in the 3rd Die Hard movie... "It's like Christmas out here, everyone's into something" the drugs and gangs popped back up and it's now a more serious problem than ever. My wife works for customs and won't allow me to buy items from the stands in the middle of the malls, from places like DHGate, because at the end of the trail, they find terrorism some way or another. That comes from Customs and Border Protection. They aren't wrong about these things. The drug and gang situation in this country is the same way. Eventually it all comes back to the gangs and drugs are their biggest source of income.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 yes and no. It's all hand in hand. Looking at it from a large scale. If not for the drugs in this country, the crime would definately be lower. Murders would be down. The amount of people locked up would decrease. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't continue somehow. But there's no secret that prior to 9-11 the government and state wide resources were pooled at the drug game and gangs across America. Then 9-11 hit and all the resources then went to the war on terror. Kind of like the little kid in the 3rd Die Hard movie... "It's like Christmas out here, everyone's into something" the drugs and gangs popped back up and it's now a more serious problem than ever. My wife works for customs and won't allow me to buy items from the stands in the middle of the malls, from places like DHGate, because at the end of the trail, they find terrorism some way or another. That comes from Customs and Border Protection. They aren't wrong about these things. The drug and gang situation in this country is the same way. Eventually it all comes back to the gangs and drugs are their biggest source of income. I hear what you're saying but your premise is simply incorrect. "If not for the drugs in this country, the crime would definately be lower," is the myth that keeps the war on drugs going. The crime rate in this country is at an all time low, actually a historic low from a species perspective, yet the prisoner count has never been higher. The reason for that largely (though not completely) derives from the policies enacted on behalf of the war on drugs. Incarceration for possession, going after users and distributors with equal fervor, have driven up those numbers -- that's very different from what you're suggesting. You're suggesting there's an actual increase in offenses and offenders when the numbers tell us otherwise. We are living in the most crime free era in history and yet the population of inmates keeps climbing.
DC Tom Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I hear what you're saying but your premise is simply incorrect. "If not for the drugs in this country, the crime would definately be lower," is the myth that keeps the war on drugs going. The crime rate in this country is at an all time low, actually a historic low from a species perspective, yet the prisoner count has never been higher. The reason for that largely (though not completely) derives from the policies enacted on behalf of the war on drugs. Incarceration for possession, going after users and distributors with equal fervor, have driven up those numbers -- that's very different from what you're suggesting. You're suggesting there's an actual increase in offenses and offenders when the numbers tell us otherwise. We are living in the most crime free era in history and yet the population of inmates keeps climbing. Fallacious argument, based on the hope that no one notices you're isolating crimes such as possession and use as "non-crimes" distinct from other crimes. Fact is: they're crimes. And people get incarcerated for them. Whether or not they should be crimes is a valid point of discussion...but not a point for ignoring that such crimes are, in fact, currently crimes.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Fallacious argument, based on the hope that no one notices you're isolating crimes such as possession and use as "non-crimes" distinct from other crimes. Fact is: they're crimes. And people get incarcerated for them. Whether or not they should be crimes is a valid point of discussion...but not a point for ignoring that such crimes are, in fact, currently crimes. I'm not ignoring that, I'm highlighting it as the reason for the inflated number of inmates despite the lower crime rate overall. The crime rate is down overall, historically so, even including those numbers.
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