Do you believe that the Toronto group will keep the team in Buffalo?

[Kirby Jackson]

So anyone want to change their vote after this latest BS from Bon Jovi?: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/03/bon-jovi-clarifies-intentions-regarding-bills/

 

90% of us and 80% of the people on the nbc poll don't believe this guy for one second. The public displays last night were great. Hope for some more tonight during the game.

I am keeping my vote that he will keep the team. If he doesn't do that he won't win the bid -period. If the question was, "would this group rather have the team in Buffalo or Toronto?" I may change my mind. The fact remains that they will not have a choice if they have any chance of winning this bid (which is highly unlikely).

[QCity]

So anyone want to change their vote after this latest BS from Bon Jovi?: http://profootballta...egarding-bills/

 

90% of us and 80% of the people on the nbc poll don't believe this guy for one second. The public displays last night were great. Hope for some more tonight during the game.

 

For some reason that statement made me believe him even less.

[Dragonborn10]

Nothing changes. All he has to do is say Cuomo won't put up the money for a new stadium and poof the Bills are gone. The game plan is already set by Roger. He said the Bills need a new stadium. I truly think Roger would like the Bills in Buffalo. Stable fan base that routinely sells lots of tickets. No stadium shots of covered seats to worry about like Jacksonville. But it is all about facilities. A compromise like in Kansas City or Green Bay where significant upgrades were done may be a viable option. But the city needs investment in a complex more than a stadium that sits 40 minutes from downtown Buffalo.

[Kelly the Dog]

I am keeping my vote that he will keep the team. If he doesn't do that he won't win the bid -period. If the question was, "would this group rather have the team in Buffalo or Toronto?" I may change my mind. The fact remains that they will not have a choice if they have any chance of winning this bid (which is highly unlikely).

If Hell were to freeze over, and they won the bid, and then Hell was restored to its previous state and then froze over AGAIN, and the NFL approved to sale to the Toronto guys, do you genuinely believe that they would keep the team in buffalo after the lease was up?

[Kirby Jackson]

 

If Hell were to freeze over, and they won the bid, and then Hell was restored to its previous state and then froze over AGAIN, and the NFL approved to sale to the Toronto guys, do you genuinely believe that they would keep the team in buffalo after the lease was up?

I really do. I don't think that they can win the bid without a long term commitment beyond "yeah, we will keep them." The fact that there are other viable options means they are going to have to meet the trust's wishes or not own the Bills. Do I think that they WANT to keep the team in Buffalo over Toronto? Of course not, but that just doesn't appear to be an option.

[Kelly the Dog]

I really do. I don't think that they can win the bid without a long term commitment beyond "yeah, we will keep them." The fact that there are other viable options means they are going to have to meet the trust's wishes or not own the Bills. Do I think that they WANT to keep the team in Buffalo over Toronto? Of course not, but that just doesn't appear to be an option.

I hear what you are saying and know they would have to do something much more than say yeah, we will keep them. But it simply makes ZERO sense why Tanenbaum and Rodgers would do this. Put $500m in, and not have the team in Toronto, just to NOT be the face of the franchise and be at the table and in the meetings and be known as the owners. That defies all logic.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I hear what you are saying and know they would have to do something much more than say yeah, we will keep them. But it simply makes ZERO sense why Tanenbaum and Rodgers would do this. Put $500m in, and not have the team in Toronto, just to NOT be the face of the franchise and be at the table and in the meetings and be known as the owners. That defies all logic.

My guess is that they target (NF) strictly a guess. They will do their best to regionalize and operate the team in two markets simultaneously. A sales force in Toronto, regular media coverage, etc... all while continuing the way things happen in WNY. They will try to run the team like a major college (if that makes sense). I am about an hour and a half from LSU but make no mistake they are New Orleans' team as well. I think that this will be their compromise. I absolutely don't see them abandoning Toronto as a part of the market. The home games will just be played on this side of the bridge. Just my $.02 Edited August 3, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[FLFan]

My guess is that they target (NF) strictly a guess. They will do their best to regionalize and operate the team in two markets simultaneously. A sales force in Toronto, regular media coverage, etc... all while continuing the way things happen in WNY. They will try to run the team like a major college (if that makes sense). I am about an hour and a half from LSU but make no mistake they are New Orleans' team as well. I think that this will be their compromise. I absolutely don't see them abandoning Toronto as a part of the market. The home games will just be played on this side of the bridge. Just my $.02

I appreciate your optimism and respect your take on this, but it cannot agree. They are saying what they need to now. I am sure their bid will try to tickle stay in Buffalo box as well. However, it would be relatively easy, given the politics of funding a new stadium, for this group to walk a line pretending to want to stay but never having any intention of doing so. It comes down to who is truly committed to WNY long term and will do whatever it takes. I just do not see how that works with Bon Jovi. I agree with Kelly on this. All that Toronto money is not in this game for regionalization. Once the ink drys, they will do whatever they want. New Jersey boy's letter today changes nothing.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I appreciate your optimism and respect your take on this, but it cannot agree. They are saying what they need to now. I am sure their bid will try to tickle stay in Buffalo box as well. However, it would be relatively easy, given the politics of funding a new stadium, for this group to walk a line pretending to want to stay but never having any intention of doing so. It comes down to who is truly committed to WNY long term and will do whatever it takes. I just do not see how that works with Bon Jovi. I agree with Kelly on this. All that Toronto money is not in this game for regionalization. Once the ink drys, they will do whatever they want. New Jersey boy's letter today changes nothing.

They have no chance then so it's a win-win. That is all that I have said all along. Of course they would LOVE to move the team to Toronto but that's off the table for the Bills. Without a commitment to the region they are out. You are starting to see it with the fan alliance asking them to waive the opt out. This is the kind of thing that you will see moving forward.

 

The reality is that their chances of owning the team are closer to mine than they are to the next owner of the team. I am trying not to be blindly optimistic on the subject but the people making the decision are not stupid. They are about 75 steps ahead of us on this. No one is taking JBJ and company at their word.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[FLFan]

They have no chance then so it's a win-win. That is all that I have said all along. Of course they would LOVE to move the team to Toronto but that's off the table for the Bills. Without a commitment to the region they are out. You are starting to see it with the fan alliance asking them to waive the opt out. This is the kind of thing that you will see moving forward.

 

The reality is that their chances of owning the team are closer to mine than they are to the next owner of the team. I am trying not to be blindly optimistic on the subject but the people making the decision are not stupid. They are about 75 steps ahead of us on this. No one is taking JBJ and company at their word.

I hope you are right about not taking them at their word, which I think is worth nothing. I am just not the trusting type.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I hope you are right about not taking them at their word, which I think is worth nothing. I am just not the trusting type.

Ha ha, yeah their word doesn't mean a thing. It's actually a little insulting to be honest. They will have to put their money with their mouth is. Their odds are so long at this point it really isn't worth talking about. If he weren't a celebrity aligned with Toronto business people we wouldn't be spending this time on them.

 

I am not concerned at all about them leaving. Kelly the Dog and I were chatting via PM earlier. I hope that he doesn't mind me disclosing this but something he said really resonated with me. He said something to the tune of "the only thing holding me back from being 100% sure of them being here long term is that they are the Bills and bad things always happen to the Bills." Every other logical explanation in the world has been addressed or refuted. It just stuck that the only reason that we are worrying is because bad things happen to us. If we stick to the facts and information there is nothing to worry about. It's just tough to separate the 2.

[TheFunPolice]

I have no sources, just logic.

 

If you're Bon Jovi and you want to buy the Buffalo Bills and keep them in Buffalo, NY AND you are such an amazing businessman, father, human being, etc. why not align with some innocuous group of investors to finance your little fantasy and take all the credit for being such a hero and saving the team?

 

A rocker from a blue collar place stands with the great blue collar fans of Buffalo NY! The story practically writes itself. He's a freaking hero AND gets to play with a toy someone else paid for.

 

But what did he do? He aligned with literally the worst possible group of people he could to make all of the above happen. That is, unless the goal all along was to move the team to Toronto. Then it all makes perfect sense why Toronto billionaires would finance his purchase.

 

In politics and PR reality is not what matters; perception is. And the perception all around the sports world (and definitely in WNY) is that Bon Jovi is going to move the Bills to Toronto.

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

I've been lied to a lot in my life... Sounds like it's happening again!!!!

[Reed83HOF]

I have no sources, just logic.

 

If you're Bon Jovi and you want to buy the Buffalo Bills and keep them in Buffalo, NY AND you are such an amazing businessman, father, human being, etc. why not align with some innocuous group of investors to finance your little fantasy and take all the credit for being such a hero and saving the team?

 

A rocker from a blue collar place stands with the great blue collar fans of Buffalo NY! The story practically writes itself. He's a freaking hero AND gets to play with a toy someone else paid for.

 

But what did he do? He aligned with literally the worst possible group of people he could to make all of the above happen. That is, unless the goal all along was to move the team to Toronto. Then it all makes perfect sense why Toronto billionaires would finance his purchase.

 

In politics and PR reality is not what matters; perception is. And the perception all around the sports world (and definitely in WNY) is that Bon Jovi is going to move the Bills to Toronto.

 

Nice post

[Kelly the Dog]

I have no sources, just logic.

 

If you're Bon Jovi and you want to buy the Buffalo Bills and keep them in Buffalo, NY AND you are such an amazing businessman, father, human being, etc. why not align with some innocuous group of investors to finance your little fantasy and take all the credit for being such a hero and saving the team?

 

A rocker from a blue collar place stands with the great blue collar fans of Buffalo NY! The story practically writes itself. He's a freaking hero AND gets to play with a toy someone else paid for.

 

But what did he do? He aligned with literally the worst possible group of people he could to make all of the above happen. That is, unless the goal all along was to move the team to Toronto. Then it all makes perfect sense why Toronto billionaires would finance his purchase.

 

In politics and PR reality is not what matters; perception is. And the perception all around the sports world (and definitely in WNY) is that Bon Jovi is going to move the Bills to Toronto.

Which of the Buffalo guys with a billion dollars are going to do that? None. He needed the deep,pockets. They need him. Pegula, Golisano, Jacobs, Rich, etc, none of those guys have any reason to put up all the money and then take a back seat.

[first_and_ten]

This letter to the Bufalo Fans is a farce. We need to ask ourselves why he would write it. I believe he knows that any group intending to move this franchise has no hope of getting the team. Otherwise, why write it? Notice this letter didn't promise anything that would legally bind the team to western new york for the long term. It's smoke and mirrors. This letter made me lose more respect for BJ than I already had lost, if this is possible. What a snake. And shame on shills like Ron Jaworski for promoting this face

Edited August 4, 2014 by first_and_ten

[Pondslider]

According to a source Kryk reported in his most recent article that Toronto's plan was to relocate as soon as possible as recently as June.

 

http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/toronto-group-bidding-on-bills-rate-chances-as-slim-they-can-match-pegula-source-says/

 

Bon Jovi’s background investors are Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment chairman Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers family that runs Canada’s largest telecom empire, both of Toronto.

Sun Media has reported that until some point in June, the group’s plan had been to relocate the team to Toronto at first opportunity.

 

So there's that.

[TheFunPolice]

According to a source Kryk reported in his most recent article that Toronto's plan was to relocate as soon as possible as recently as June.

 

http://blogs.canoe.c...la-source-says/

 

 

 

So there's that.

 

 

Well, yes, of course!

 

People as incredibly wealthy and powerful as the people in Toronto putting the money behind Bon Jovi's effort do the impossible every day. I'm sure they still think deep down that they will find a way if they can just win this bid.

 

That might not be true, but these guys have already beaten the odds in business many times and are not used to having terms dictated to them. So let's hope they lose!

[Hplarrm]

 

Once the ink drys, they will do whatever they want. New Jersey boy's letter today changes nothing.

 

It seems that you do not understand that the NFL is a lot more than a simple collection of rich folks (mostly rich old white guys) who do whatever they want as individuals.

 

A real understanding of the economics of the modern NFL sees that perhaps back in the day of George Halas closer to WWII it was a bunch of rich individuals and the dollar and willingness to spend it defined the league. However, with the hiring of Pete Rozelle the league rushed toward a business model based more on the collaboration of the owners social compact than a traditional free market system.

 

In the conventional free market the amount of dollars you have and willingness to spend to get the best players would rule. However, the individual owner actually stands to produce a better product and more competitive product through systems which for example rather than rewarding success and lots of folks coming out of college want to sign to become part of the success of NE, the NFL instead rewards mediocrity by giving the sole rights to sign the best player to the worst team getting the first draft pick.

 

The NFL made a last gasp for the conventional business model when the owners outflanked and kicked the butt of the NFLPA and the AFL-CIO types liked Garvey whom the players hired to lead them. By locking the players out the NFL businessmen destroyed the NFLPA and the proud players crawled back to work.

 

However, the NFL hoist itself on its own petard by milking the colleges to pay for training athletes rather than the system in most other major sports leagues where pro teams pay to own or operate minor league teams and buy players with speculative contracts at the age of 16 or so. By not gaining control of NFL players until they are 21 or older, a talented 10th of these players are actually men and make adult choices. A few folks like Gene Upshaw were smart enough to listen to smart NYC lawyers and used their personal stature as great players and adult intellects to buy ideas like threatening to decertify the union. The traditional AFL-CIO types lost the respect of the players when the NFL owners kicked the player's butts in the lockout. This gave Upshaw and others the opportunity to sell the decertification threat strategy to their fellow players.

 

If the NFLPA went away, it would have thrown the owners into a more traditional free market. The resulting tumult would have turned some owners into winners but others into losers. The tumult also would have made it harder to have the stability which allowed the TV nets to sign long term contracts delivering tons of $ to the owners.

 

The owners ran kicking and screaming away from the conventional free market and signed the CBA. This essentially not only rejected free market principles as the operating strategy of the NFL but acknowledged the players as partners with the owners. The promised labor peace quickly resulted in unprecedented wealth for the owners from the TV nets.

 

When the CBA came up for renewal, Upshaw simply pre-empted negotiations by announcing prior to talking that the designated revenues making up the salary cap (which saw teams like the Bills reduce their ticket capacity by 5,000 but increase their premium seats which were designated as outside of the salary cap) to a system which instead looked at all revenues. Upshaw also announced that the final cap # needed to start with a 6.

 

The final agreement which gave players 60.5% of the gross revenues arguably defined the players not only as partners but in fact the majority partners of the new NFL.

 

Further decisions like the one Ralph contractually agreed to such as any new owner needing approval by 75% of the owners effectively gives the NFL a veto over who buys the team (even a high bidder).

 

It is simply wrong to assume that JBJ/CA will do whatever they want once the ink dries on the deal. You have to understand that the NFL historically whatever generates the most $ for the individual owners in total. The NFL makes a lot more $ not from having the Buffalo franchise leave behind millions in 45,000 plus season ticket holders, 20.000+ individual ticket buyers, millions from local advertisers, and millions from NYS govts incorporate welfare for the Bills in exchange for marginally higher similar payments from a bigger Toronto market.

 

The NFL clearly benefits the most from a result which allows them to BOTH keep the Buffalo $ and add new franchises which include the Toronto market.

 

I simply doubt JBJ/CA are going to lie to their new business partners in the NFL and pull an Art Modell and leave the money of Buffalo behind so that JBJ/CA benefits but the NFL is left cleaning up the mess.

[K D]

As per John Kryk, the Toronto group is expected to re-submit an initial bid and they have to have better assurance that the team will stay in Buffalo or they are out: http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/exclusive-toronto-group-bidding-on-bills-allowed-to-submit-higher-first-bid-and-must-provide-greater-assurance-it-would-not-relocate-team-sources-say/