Andy1 Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Irv said: I originally thought this was a stupid post but then I re-read it and most of it makes sense. Education programs could address safe storage, theft prevention, safe use (Agree 100%) Removal of guns from the mentally ill, Red Flag laws (Agree almost 100%. If somebody is prescribed an anti-depressant - no gun? That's the concern) Voluntary gun give back to police (I don't think there is any law stopping this now) Reporting concerns to police (I don't think there is any law stopping this now) Education on the risks associated with gun ownership (This exists and is provided by the NRA - Eddie The Eagle Program) Doctors should talk to parents of children about gun risks. (Don't disagree, but not sure why Doctors need to do this. Anybody can. You can.) Funding mental health programs, etc. (Agree 100%) The goal should be to change the way society thinks about guns and gun ownership. Education health programs have worked with DWI and smoking, without banning cigarettes or alcohol. (I don't think the average gang banger gives a crap about this) Yea, I don’t know what you do about the gang bangers other than enforce current laws. Half of Americans are idiots. They may be good people, but they are clueless. Some things like voluntary give back to police seem obvious but sometimes dumb people just need reminding that these are options if they have unwanted guns in their home. As for doctors, gun shootings are the number one cause of death to teens and younger. Kids are curious and too many get their hands on their parents guns. Teens go through emotional difficulties. People usually pay attention to their docs. It’s the same as if the parent has lead paint in their home.
B-Man Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 NEWS YOU CAN USE: 5 Ways to Protect Your Gun Rights and Those of Your Children. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/5-ways-to-protect-your-gun-rights-and-those-of-your-children/ 1
ArdmoreRyno Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 15 hours ago, Irv said: Removal of guns from the mentally ill, Red Flag laws (Agree almost 100%. If somebody is prescribed an anti-depressant - no gun? That's the concern) This is the part I take issue with. Again, what is the standard of "mentally ill" that warrants losing your firearm rights? Right now, in nearly every state... it's being a danger to yourself or others. But what if a person is going through a loss of a loved one or divorce and are taking medication and seeking counseling for that? Do they lose their 2A rights? Should I have to report their private information to LEO? No. As for red flag laws... this violates so many constitutional rights. You should never lose a right without due process. 1 3
All_Pro_Bills Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: This is the part I take issue with. Again, what is the standard of "mentally ill" that warrants losing your firearm rights? Right now, in nearly every state... it's being a danger to yourself or others. But what if a person is going through a loss of a loved one or divorce and are taking medication and seeking counseling for that? Do they lose their 2A rights? Should I have to report their private information to LEO? No. As for red flag laws... this violates so many constitutional rights. You should never lose a right without due process. You make a good point. I could argue the standard of mentally ill is an inability to recognize reality and function in it. But what is the baseline definition for reality? An exception might be in cases where a person has made specific threats and taken specific actions to carry out some act. Sadly, law enforcement and public health officials miss most of these, even the most obvious. One reason is the behavioral health threshold of "evidence" to hold somebody against their will is very high. Most individuals, even those seeking voluntary treatment, are released after evaluation. The evaluation is highly subjective and as such there is potential for misdiagnosis and abuse of the statute. On top of that you're dealing with Protected Health Information (PHI) which adds another complexity into the issue when it comes to disclosure. 3 1
Andy1 Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 33 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: This is the part I take issue with. Again, what is the standard of "mentally ill" that warrants losing your firearm rights? Right now, in nearly every state... it's being a danger to yourself or others. But what if a person is going through a loss of a loved one or divorce and are taking medication and seeking counseling for that? Do they lose their 2A rights? Should I have to report their private information to LEO? No. As for red flag laws... this violates so many constitutional rights. You should never lose a right without due process. As someone who is in the mental health field, do you think there is any mental health condition that would justify removing guns from a person’s possession?
Irv Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, Andy1 said: As someone who is in the mental health field, do you think there is any mental health condition that would justify removing guns from a person’s possession? If somebody is prescribed an anti-depressant - no gun?
ArdmoreRyno Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 34 minutes ago, Andy1 said: As someone who is in the mental health field, do you think there is any mental health condition that would justify removing guns from a person’s possession? Definitely. If they are looking to harm themselves or others, or have a recent history of attempts. Most states have this rule in place. Some states have policies where if you were inpatient, you can't buy/own a firearm until you can prove you're competent to do so. I'm not pro-removing of rights if you're someone (example) who attempted a long time ago and did not complete suicide but have taken the steps to get better, have a safety plan, etc. A lot of fellow veterans have major PTSD, but that doesn't mean they should lose their 2A rights. Certain psychotic disorders or personality disorders. Schizophrenia for example. 42 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: You make a good point. I could argue the standard of mentally ill is an inability to recognize reality and function in it. But what is the baseline definition for reality? An exception might be in cases where a person has made specific threats and taken specific actions to carry out some act. Sadly, law enforcement and public health officials miss most of these, even the most obvious. One reason is the behavioral health threshold of "evidence" to hold somebody against their will is very high. Most individuals, even those seeking voluntary treatment, are released after evaluation. The evaluation is highly subjective and as such there is potential for misdiagnosis and abuse of the statute. On top of that you're dealing with Protected Health Information (PHI) which adds another complexity into the issue when it comes to disclosure. You're 100% right on everything you said. Especially when you said it's "highly subjective" and there ARE misdiagnosis that takes place in the field ALL THE TIME. Imagine you live in San Fran and are completely anti-2A. You feel the country should rework the Bill or Rights and get rid of the rights to own a firearm. You're also a shrink (blanket term for any therapist) and you are so bias, you help aide LEO in removing as many guns from people as possible via misdiagnosing people. That could be so abused. 3
Andy1 Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 42 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: Definitely. If they are looking to harm themselves or others, or have a recent history of attempts. Most states have this rule in place. Some states have policies where if you were inpatient, you can't buy/own a firearm until you can prove you're competent to do so. I'm not pro-removing of rights if you're someone (example) who attempted a long time ago and did not complete suicide but have taken the steps to get better, have a safety plan, etc. A lot of fellow veterans have major PTSD, but that doesn't mean they should lose their 2A rights. Certain psychotic disorders or personality disorders. Schizophrenia for example. Isn’t this what red flag laws are for? Maybe it’s all in the details of how the laws are worded.
ArdmoreRyno Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Andy1 said: Isn’t this what red flag laws are for? Maybe it’s all in the details of how the laws are worded. That's the idea, but it's been abused. You can call in on a neighbor you don't like and say they have firearms and have threatened you... or an ex. Just to be spiteful (and it's happened). 2
B-Man Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 48 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: That's the idea, but it's been abused. You can call in on a neighbor you don't like and say they have firearms and have threatened you... or an ex. Just to be spiteful (and it's happened). LIFE IN THE BLUE ZONES: Detectives Rep: New York Cops Are Too Busy With Red Flag Gun Confiscations to Arrest Violent Criminals. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/detectives-rep-new-york-cops-are-too-busy-with-red-flag-gun-confiscations-to-arrest-violent-criminals/ https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/state-police-union-says-investigators-18093968.php?IPID=Times-Union-state-spotlight https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/ERPOs-17268525.php 2
Andy1 Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 When it comes to creating laws to remove weapons from individuals who may use them to kill themselves or others, no law or system is going to be perfect. So the question comes down to which side does the law lean towards - protecting people or leaving guns in the hands of mentally unstable individuals. The police appear to support the intent of the laws but are currently overwhelmed by requests. At minimum, it sounds like a lot of mentally unstable people have guns that their family/friends are concerned about. In NY it sounds like we need more police staff to deal with the increased workload. That problem can be resolved over time.
Unforgiven Posted May 25, 2023 Posted May 25, 2023 Question to the the resident morons...ok for this guy to keep his guns amirite? Michigan Man Gets Community Service for Shooting Anti-Abortion Campaigner Richard Harvey, 75, was ordered to complete 100 hours of community service. Judge Suzanne Hoseth Kreeger also gave him a suspended jail sentence of two months and a delayed sentence of one year on probation. Harvey pleaded no contest last month to felonious assault, careless discharge of a firearm causing injury and reckless discharge of a firearm. Kreeger also must pay $347.19 in restitution and cannot have any contact with the woman he shot, 84-year-old Joan Jacobson. https://www.9and10news.com/2023/05/24/michigan-man-gets-community-service-for-shooting-anti-abortion-campaigner/
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 26, 2023 Posted May 26, 2023 8 hours ago, Andy1 said: When it comes to creating laws to remove weapons from individuals who may use them to kill themselves or others, no law or system is going to be perfect. So the question comes down to which side does the law lean towards - protecting people or leaving guns in the hands of mentally unstable individuals. The police appear to support the intent of the laws but are currently overwhelmed by requests. At minimum, it sounds like a lot of mentally unstable people have guns that their family/friends are concerned about. In NY it sounds like we need more police staff to deal with the increased workload. That problem can be resolved over time. how do you deal with teenagers with handguns? That’s problem #1 these kids don’t realize the consequences and stupidity… like most adolescents you don’t appreciate the future you are squandering until you get there and look back. 2
ArdmoreRyno Posted May 26, 2023 Posted May 26, 2023 16 hours ago, Unforgiven said: Question to the the resident morons...ok for this guy to keep his guns amirite? Michigan Man Gets Community Service for Shooting Anti-Abortion Campaigner Richard Harvey, 75, was ordered to complete 100 hours of community service. Judge Suzanne Hoseth Kreeger also gave him a suspended jail sentence of two months and a delayed sentence of one year on probation. Harvey pleaded no contest last month to felonious assault, careless discharge of a firearm causing injury and reckless discharge of a firearm. Kreeger also must pay $347.19 in restitution and cannot have any contact with the woman he shot, 84-year-old Joan Jacobson. https://www.9and10news.com/2023/05/24/michigan-man-gets-community-service-for-shooting-anti-abortion-campaigner/ Not sure why you're even asking that. He plead no-contest to a felony. That's how you automatically lose your gun rights. 1
B-Man Posted May 29, 2023 Posted May 29, 2023 Gun control laws are not the answer. Bloody Memorial Day Weekend, Chicago Style: 51 Shot, 12 Killed https://redstate.com/mike_miller/2023/05/29/bloody-memorial-day-weekend-chicago-style-51-shot-12-killed-2-year-girl-found-gun-and-shot-herself-n753091 1
Tommy Callahan Posted May 30, 2023 Posted May 30, 2023 8 hours ago, B-Man said: LMAO. Yeah. Attempted confiscation would be a hell of a show. and not in a good way. 1
Andy1 Posted May 31, 2023 Posted May 31, 2023 Here is something interesting I recently came across re gun violence: I have been reading and writing about gun violence for more than ten years. I have yet to see how one of the most significant factors that we need to understand about this peculiarly American form of behavior not only remains unstudied by all the public health mavens (read: experts) but isn’t even mentioned by this so-called scholarly community as an issue of concern. What I am referring to is the extraordinary differential between whites and blacks when we look at the numbers for homicides versus suicides committed with a gun. The difference is startling. For whites, the gun-homicide rate in 2021 was 3.05, for blacks it was 28.03. This puts the white gun-homicide in the United States right around Sri Lanka and Turkey, and considering that white Americans own ten times more guns that the residents of either those other countries, the rate of gun homicides suffered by American whites isn’t so bad. On the other hand, the rate of gun homicides experienced by American blacks is up there around countries like Sudan, Guinea, and the Dominican Republic. In 2021, the U.S. gun-homicide rate for blacks between ages 14 and 34 was – ready? – 64.05. The only country which matches that number in the entire world is El Salvador. No other country is even close. Looking at gun suicides, however, gives us a much different view of things. In 2020, the rate of white gun suicides was 7.84, the black gun suicide rate was 3.95. When it comes to how guns are used in this country for ending a human life, as opposed to using a gun for hunting or sport, whites use guns to shoot themselves, blacks use guns to shoot someone else. In that respect, I’m still waiting for the first researcher to attempt an analysis of the differential between gun homicide and gun suicide using race as the fundamental variable in both types of events. https://mikethegunguy.social/2023/05/18/does-public-health-understand-gun-violence/ 2
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