What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[ArdmoreRyno]

23 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

but if a judge in NY removes the right, can the person still buy a gun in Tennessee?

 

I would (assume) think that if someone loses a right in a state (NYS) due to that state having a certain law and moves to a state (Tenn) that doesn't have those laws... I would believe that they could buy a firearm. 

 

Now if someone couldn't own a gun in NYS for DV or some other offense, it would carry over to every state via the NICS check.

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

It's counterintuitive and surprising, but the presence of an armed officer in schools doesn't reduce the injuries/deaths from shooters and actually is associated with a slightly increased rate of injuries.

 

Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019

 

"Based on theory, multivariate models include the presence of an armed guard and control for region, school type (public, nonpublic), and grade level (high school, elementary, other); location (urban, suburban, rural); use of lockdown drills; if the attack was targeted; total number of weapons brought to the scene; number of shooters; and weapon type. Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present (incidence rate ratio, 2.96; 95% CI = 1.43-6.13; P = .003)."

Such statistics aren’t compelling enough not to do it as they don’t prove causation. There may be other factors at work. It stands to reason if a shooter can’t get in, they can’t commit the crime. We have armed officers in government buildings for a reason, and that reason clearly isn’t a higher incidence of deaths. Why is it standard practice if not for safety and security of the building’s occupants ? It appears reasonable that the most expedient thing we can do is make the soft target a hard target. This is about saving the lives of innocent workers and students inside the building. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

I would (assume) think that if someone loses a right in a state (NYS) due to that state having a certain law and moves to a state (Tenn) that doesn't have those laws... I would believe that they could buy a firearm. 

 

Now if someone couldn't own a gun in NYS for DV or some other offense, it would carry over to every state via the NICS check.

i don't believe that is true.  the minority of states have red flag laws  Tennessee does not.  one state has an anti red flag law.  

[ArdmoreRyno]

3 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

i don't believe that is true.  the minority of states have red flag laws  Tennessee does not.  one state has an anti red flag law.  

 

I was saying, I assumed the laws/rules/policies that are in one state won't apply to another. Now if it's a criminal case, like Domestic Violence, then it would carry over and be accessible to the FBI database.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by ArdmoreRyno

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, Irv said:

 You must not live in NY.  Go ahead.  Put your head back in the sand.

 

Enhancing New York’s Gun Laws in the Wake of Bruen

 

In the wake of the Court’s decision in Bruen, New York’s lawmakers were called back to Albany for a special session to pass new legislation clarifying and enhancing New York’s many public-safety-oriented protections for handgun licensing in a manner consistent with the Supreme Court’s decision. On July 1, 2022, Governor Hochul signed landmark legislation expanding restrictions on access to guns in the state. You can read the law here.

 

Sensitive Places: The new measures build on the constitutional carveout for protecting “sensitive places,” barring the carrying of firearms in specific public settings, such as: colleges and universities, hospitals, houses of worship, public transportation, including subways, places where alcohol is consumed, homeless shelters and other public residential facilities, entertainment venues, such as stadiums, theaters, casinos, and polling places, and places where children gather, such as schools, daycare centers, playgrounds, libraries parks and zoos.

 

New Eligibility Requirements: The new law adds requirements for New Yorkers applying for a concealed carry permit, including presenting a certificate of completion of a standardized firearm training and firing range training. Only applicants deemed to have “good moral character” and sufficient mental competence—a determination based on an in-person interview, a written exam and character references—will be eligible for a concealed carry permit. Applicants may be disqualified by past illicit behavior, including misdemeanor convictions for weapons possession and menacing (placing another person in fear of death or serious injury). Applicants who are denied a permit following this process may appeal.

 

Safe Storage, Background Checks and Body Armor: The new law also imposes new safe storage requirements, for example, prohibiting gun owners from leaving a firearm in a car unless stored in a lockbox with ammunition removed, and requiring safe gun ownership in a home where someone under 18 resides. Additionally, New York’s new law allows the State to conduct and exercise oversight over background checks for firearms, beyond those maintained by the FBI, which lack access to state- and local-owned databases. Finally, the law expands the scope of bullet-resistant protective equipment prohibited in New York, for example, the steel-plated vest worn by the shooter in the Buffalo, New York.

  

 

You don't like regulations?

 

Do you just blow thru red lights and stop signs?

 

ZERO - absolutely - ZERO sympathy for you... 

 

Grow up.

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

8 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

I was saying, I assumed the laws/rules/policies that are in one state won't apply to another. Now if it's a criminal case, like Domestic Violence, then it would carry over and be accessible to the FBI database.

 

 

ok.  so would you support a national red flag law?  why or why not.

[ArdmoreRyno]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

ok.  so would you support a national red flag law?  why or why not.

 

No. I'm in support of the "idea" but worry about how it can be used/abused. Even the ACLU is against it... which is saying a lot. Here is what they said: "People who are not alleged to have committed a crime should not be subject to severe deprivations of liberty interests...in the absence of a clear, compelling and immediate showing of need. As well-intentioned as this legislation is, its breadth and its lenient standards for both applying for and granting an ERPO are cause for great concern."

 

https://www.riaclu.org/en/news/aclu-rhode-island-raises-red-flags-over-red-flag-gun-legislation

[Joe Ferguson forever]

43 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

No. I'm in support of the "idea" but worry about how it can be used/abused. Even the ACLU is against it... which is saying a lot. Here is what they said: "People who are not alleged to have committed a crime should not be subject to severe deprivations of liberty interests...in the absence of a clear, compelling and immediate showing of need. As well-intentioned as this legislation is, its breadth and its lenient standards for both applying for and granting an ERPO are cause for great concern."

 

https://www.riaclu.org/en/news/aclu-rhode-island-raises-red-flags-over-red-flag-gun-legislation

so more guns...

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

We had this debate in my church.  A vagrant who was mentally unstable kept barging into and disrupting services.  Several people called for arming some of the congregation.  Law enforcement in the congregation, of which there are many, unanimously disagreed with this saying the likelihood of more deaths and injuries would be higher in an armed congregation.  Area Law enforcement eventually bought the guy a one way bus ticket out of town.  BTW, it's not easy to get someone involuntarily committed for psych issues.

Thanks a lot Hawk. I think I saw that guy wandering around MY street now. 😂

[ArdmoreRyno]

9 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

so more guns...

 

Where did I said that in my response? I posted a link to the ACLU and their quote. 

[Irv]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

You don't like regulations?

 

Do you just blow thru red lights and stop signs?

 

ZERO - absolutely - ZERO sympathy for you... 

 

Grow up.

 

 

 

You asked what rights are being taken away.   I tell you.  Then you change the subject when the truth hurts your fragile feelings.  Go hug your blanket and try not to have a breakdown.  I don't need your sympathy.  Thanks. 

 

What a mess.  

[aristocrat]

2 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

 

It's counterintuitive and surprising, but the presence of an armed officer in schools doesn't reduce the injuries/deaths from shooters and actually is associated with a slightly increased rate of injuries.

 

Presence of Armed School Officials and Fatal and Nonfatal Gunshot Injuries During Mass School Shootings, United States, 1980-2019

 

"Based on theory, multivariate models include the presence of an armed guard and control for region, school type (public, nonpublic), and grade level (high school, elementary, other); location (urban, suburban, rural); use of lockdown drills; if the attack was targeted; total number of weapons brought to the scene; number of shooters; and weapon type. Results are presented as incident rate ratios in Table 2 and show armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries; in fact, controlling for the aforementioned factors of location and school characteristics, the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present (incidence rate ratio, 2.96; 95% CI = 1.43-6.13; P = .003)."

the girl in this shooting literally avoided a school cause it had too much security. 

[ChiGoose]

17 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

the girl in this shooting literally avoided a school cause it had too much security. 

 

I get that. And I was a bit surprised at what studies show about SRO's. But an anecdote doesn't override data / studies.

[Tommy Callahan]

The study was 130 some events.  Not where the nutter chose not to do a shooting because of hardening .    Look at the buffalo shooter   had many targets checked off due to armed security before choosing tops. So that report only counted it as one.  Not the dozens he avoided.  Same with many of the past ones that were random.     No data point is even collected when the hardening prevented any event from happening.  

 

Vs that study that points to when am armed guard worked, vs a shooter.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Chris farley

[ArdmoreRyno]

16 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

I get that. And I was a bit surprised at what studies show about SRO's. But an anecdote doesn't override data / studies.

 

I saw a study where there has been no school shootings during school hours where A) Armed staff members and B) That information is provided in the front of the school on a sign. Honestly can't find it now but I'll keep looking. 

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, Irv said:

 

You asked what rights are being taken away.   I tell you.  Then you change the subject when the truth hurts your fragile feelings.  Go hug your blanket and try not to have a breakdown.  I don't need your sympathy.  Thanks. 

 

What a mess.  

 

But did they take your gun away Irv?

 

 

 

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, aristocrat said:

the girl in this shooting literally avoided a school cause it had too much security. 

 

Hey @aristocrat - is it cool for an adult to murder kids in school?  Yes or no?

[ChiGoose]

1 hour ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

I saw a study where there has been no school shootings during school hours where A) Armed staff members and B) That information is provided in the front of the school on a sign. Honestly can't find it now but I'll keep looking. 

 

That would be great. As I said, I was surprised by what the studies seem to show about SROs. 

[aristocrat]

2 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

That would be great. As I said, I was surprised by what the studies seem to show about SROs. 

 

The easy thing to do right now would be to create a federal school force. All schools have bullet proof glass, doors alarmed and locked and only opened by security, cameras, alarms, armed security etc.  Do this so shooters know they can't get in and will be met with resistance immediately. Do this for as long as we see attempts at shootings stop.  

[nedboy7]

5 hours ago, Irv said:

 You must not live in NY.  Go ahead.  Put your head back in the sand.

 

Enhancing New York’s Gun Laws in the Wake of Bruen

 

In the wake of the Court’s decision in Bruen, New York’s lawmakers were called back to Albany for a special session to pass new legislation clarifying and enhancing New York’s many public-safety-oriented protections for handgun licensing in a manner consistent with the Supreme Court’s decision. On July 1, 2022, Governor Hochul signed landmark legislation expanding restrictions on access to guns in the state. You can read the law here.

 

Sensitive Places: The new measures build on the constitutional carveout for protecting “sensitive places,” barring the carrying of firearms in specific public settings, such as: colleges and universities, hospitals, houses of worship, public transportation, including subways, places where alcohol is consumed, homeless shelters and other public residential facilities, entertainment venues, such as stadiums, theaters, casinos, and polling places, and places where children gather, such as schools, daycare centers, playgrounds, libraries parks and zoos.

 

New Eligibility Requirements: The new law adds requirements for New Yorkers applying for a concealed carry permit, including presenting a certificate of completion of a standardized firearm training and firing range training. Only applicants deemed to have “good moral character” and sufficient mental competence—a determination based on an in-person interview, a written exam and character references—will be eligible for a concealed carry permit. Applicants may be disqualified by past illicit behavior, including misdemeanor convictions for weapons possession and menacing (placing another person in fear of death or serious injury). Applicants who are denied a permit following this process may appeal.

 

Safe Storage, Background Checks and Body Armor: The new law also imposes new safe storage requirements, for example, prohibiting gun owners from leaving a firearm in a car unless stored in a lockbox with ammunition removed, and requiring safe gun ownership in a home where someone under 18 resides. Additionally, New York’s new law allows the State to conduct and exercise oversight over background checks for firearms, beyond those maintained by the FBI, which lack access to state- and local-owned databases. Finally, the law expands the scope of bullet-resistant protective equipment prohibited in New York, for example, the steel-plated vest worn by the shooter in the Buffalo, New York.

  

You forgot no guns at NRA rallies or GOP conversions bro. 

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

But did they take your gun away Irv?

 

 

 

he can’t have an honest discussion. He wants to be armed even during his colonoscopy cause the constitution talked about needing a well armed militia couple centuries ago.