birdog1960 Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 How is Israel a democracy? That implies equal rights for everyone. In their case Laws and penalties vary based on ethnicity....blatant recent example is destroying Arab terrorist homes, but not Jewish terrorists. And they occupy an area with millions of people who have virtually no rights at all. If those are democratic values i want no part of them. it certainly has programs and policies that test the definition of the word. i agree. but it's more democratic than anywhere else in the middle east.
truth on hold Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 No, it doesn't. Learn something, please. Anything. "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty." No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics since ancient times." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy Sound like Israel to you? Nope me either it certainly has programs and policies that test the definition of the word. i agree. but it's more democratic than anywhere else in the middle east. I think you have to look on a case by case basis. Its kind of a complicated issue, and one could argue at least Iraq, turkey and palestinean people are more democratic. But when you occupy an entire population of millions like isrsel IMO that puts you in the back of the class.
meazza Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty." No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics since ancient times." http://en.m.wikipedi.../wiki/Democracy Sound like Israel to you? Nope me either I think you have to look on a case by case basis. Its kind of a complicated issue, and one could argue at least Iraq, turkey and palestinean people are more democratic. But when you occupy an entire population of millions like isrsel IMO that puts you in the back of the class. Yes Turkey is quite democratic. Just don't ask Armenians or Kurds. Edited July 14, 2014 by meazza
truth on hold Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Yes Turkey is quite democratic. Just don't ask Armenians or Kurds. Armenia is its own country (and more democratic than Israel BTW) so I'm not sure what that refers to. And yes there's some discontent among the Kurdish community at times, but they're not discriminated against like Palestinians by, for example, being restricted from jewish-only roads. And there's no UN mandate for a Kurdish nation in turkey. Pretty silly really to compare Kurds in turkey to palis in Israel. Lebanon as a parliamentary democracy another one that's arguably more democratic than Israel. Edited July 14, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack
meazza Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Armenia is its own country (and more democratic than Israel BTW) so I'm not sure what that refers to. And yes there's some discontent among the Kurdish community at times, but they're not discriminated against like Palestinians by, for example, being restricted from jewish-only roads. And there's no UN mandate for a Kurdish nation in turkey. Pretty silly really to compare Kurds in turkey to palis in Israel. Lebanon as a parliamentary democracy another one that's arguably more democratic than Israel.
GG Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 By the idiot standard, Mexico should be allowed to vote in US elections.
DC Tom Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, and liberty." No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics since ancient times." http://en.m.wikipedi.../wiki/Democracy Sound like Israel to you? Nope me either Sure it does. Palestinians simply aren't ELIGIBLE. What was your TOEFL score?
truth on hold Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Sure it does. Palestinians simply aren't ELIGIBLE. What was your TOEFL score? If you want to hang on that word, and leave open the possibility that "democratic" values provides for occupying millions with no rights and arbitrarily determining who's "eligible" for equal treatment, then go ahead. (I'd strongly argue that's not what democratic values conveys nor what's meant in that context). So let's examine Israel under your narrower definition: The Or Commission, set up to explain the October 2000 unrest in many Israeli Arab communities found, "The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state. Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon. According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
Justice Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 I sure missed a lot. First I'd like to address DCTom. Here you go: http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/fox-news-misrepresents-destroyed-palestinian-home-destruction-israel-palestinian-rockets ABC went on to apologize for their error, but I'm not sure if they've done it on air yet. The second issue I'd like to address is Hollywood. I'm not offended by Hollywood's portrayal if Arabs because as some of you already said we're not the only ones. Russians, Koreans and other nationalities have been portrayed negatively as well. We've been portrayed positively, too. Here are some examples: Body of Lies showed both the good and the bad from the Arab world. Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom did the same. People even cried for the hero in The Kingdom at the movie theatre in Miami. There are some Muslim comedians out there too. Ahmed Ahmed comes to mind. There are others too. Overall I don't feel Hollywood has a huge impact on how the world views us. Terrorists have done enough damage on their own, but people shouldn't allow the very worst of us to represent us.
GG Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 If you want to hang on that word, and leave open the possibility that "democratic" values provides for occupying millions with no rights and arbitrarily determining who's "eligible" for equal treatment, then go ahead. (I'd strongly argue that's not what democratic values conveys nor what's meant in that context). So let's examine Israel under your narrower definition: The Or Commission, set up to explain the October 2000 unrest in many Israeli Arab communities found, "The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state. Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon. According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. http://en.m.wikipedi...acism_in_Israel Idiot, Arab citizens living inside Israel proper do have a right to vote and have representation in the Knesset.
truth on hold Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Idiot, Arab citizens living inside Israel proper do have a right to vote and have representation in the Knesset. what good is value of vote when there's "institutional and legal" discrimination? If having a vote is your standard for democracy, then Syria is equally democratic. Edited July 14, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack
DC Tom Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 If you want to hang on that word, and leave open the possibility that "democratic" values provides for occupying millions with no rights and arbitrarily determining who's "eligible" for equal treatment, then go ahead. (I'd strongly argue that's not what democratic values conveys nor what's meant in that context). So let's examine Israel under your narrower definition: The Or Commission, set up to explain the October 2000 unrest in many Israeli Arab communities found, "The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state. Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon. According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. http://en.m.wikipedi...acism_in_Israel "Hang on" that word? That word's rather important, since it's actually defines "democracy." The entire history of democracy has been one of qualifying who is and is not eligible to participate in the government, and no democratic government EVER has achieved universal suffrage (including the US today - ask any convicted felon in Virginia.) Democracy does not and never has required the equal participation of all citizens (except in the few cases - classical Athens, for example - where "citizenship" is defined as "he who has a vote.") In short, "democracy" is not "equality," and "equality" is not "democracy." The simple facts that you can't even define "democracy" properly, can't understand the proper definition when spoon-fed to you, and think that pointing out your ignorance somehow represents a value judgement on Israel rather makes you an unmitigated moron, doesn't it?
3rdnlng Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Why don't we use the actual Or Commission's report rather than Wiki's: The behavior of the Arab sector leadership contributed to the depth of the events and their force. The leadership did not succeed in directing the demands of an Arab minority into solely legitimate democratic channels. It did not succeed in understanding that the violent riots, obstruction of traffic arteries and identification with armed activity against the state and its citizens, constitute a threat against the state's Jewish citizens and substantially damaged the delicate fabric of Jewish-Arab relations in Israel. This created the mold for the threat of serious violence and the use of violence to achieve various goals, as evident in house destructions and land expropriation, and concerning negotiations regarding Jerusalem and the status of the Temple Mount. In various mosques, messages were transmitted delegitimizing the state and its security forces, and serious hostility and antagonism toward its symbols were expressed. Various circles raised demands to grant autonomy in some areas to the Arab minority, and to abolish the definition of the state as a Jewish state and make it "a state for all its citizens." This blurred more than once the line between the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria and the Arab citizens of the state. http://www.jewishvir...sionReport.html We can play this game all night if you want. The cherry picking game that is. Edited July 14, 2014 by 3rdnlng
truth on hold Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) "Hang on" that word? That word's rather important, since it's actually defines "democracy." The entire history of democracy has been one of qualifying who is and is not eligible to participate in the government, and no democratic government EVER has achieved universal suffrage (including the US today - ask any convicted felon in Virginia.) Democracy does not and never has required the equal participation of all citizens (except in the few cases - classical Athens, for example - where "citizenship" is defined as "he who has a vote.") In short, "democracy" is not "equality," and "equality" is not "democracy." The simple facts that you can't even define "democracy" properly, can't understand the proper definition when spoon-fed to you, and think that pointing out your ignorance somehow represents a value judgement on Israel rather makes you an unmitigated moron, doesn't it? well actually I conceded it's a complicated, nuanced argument starting with defining it. I'd agree with this wiki summation as a generalization: "No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics since ancient times" and whether we're talking about Israel proper, or Israel including the occupied territories it fails miserably on the characteristic of "legal equality, freedom and rule of law". And if you're saying those aren't defining characteristics, then who gives a s#@t when someone claims "Israel is the only democracy"? means nothing in terms of values Edited July 14, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack
DC Tom Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 well actually I conceded it's a complicated, nuanced argument starting with defining it. I'd agree with this wiki summation as a generalization: "No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics since ancient times" and whether we're talking about Israel proper, or Israel including the occupied territories it fails miserably on the characteristic of "legal equality, freedom and rule of law". Equality and freedom, maybe. Rule of law, not so much - I'd wager that, given our President's willful flouting of so many laws with nothing more than a "pen and a phone," Israel does a better job than we do. And if you're saying those aren't defining characteristics, then who gives a s#@t when someone claims "Israel is the only democracy"? means nothing in terms of values Have I ever given the impression that I give a **** when someone claims Israel is the only democracy? They're as retarded as you are.
truth on hold Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 Equality and freedom, maybe. Rule of law, not so much - I'd wager that, given our President's willful flouting of so many laws with nothing more than a "pen and a phone," Israel does a better job than we do. Have I ever given the impression that I give a **** when someone claims Israel is the only democracy? They're as retarded as you are. good at least we agree that defense of Israel is nothing but hollow BS, and those claiming it "retarded" in your words
GG Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) what good is value of vote when there's "institutional and legal" discrimination? If having a vote is your standard for democracy, then Syria is equally democratic. Syria is not equally democratic, because it doesn't confer the same democratic rights to all its citizens, nor are elections free. Yet, it's still hilarious to watch you argue points where you have no clue of what you are arguing about, only to pick on the next shiny object, while thinking people won't consider you less of an idiot because you moved on to a different topic. In conclusion, you're still an idiot. Edited July 15, 2014 by GG
Alaska Darin Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 we aren't taking sides in a one sided televised war between any of those countries nor are we selling them f16's and spare parts. You might be the dumbest educated person in history. Your ability to twist yourself into a knot and find the tiniest scraps that you think somehow prove something is breathtaking in its retardedness. Bravo, Corky. Bravo.
Nanker Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 No, it doesn't. Learn something, please. Anything. Perhaps he could start with this.
Bronc24 Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) Armenia is its own country (and more democratic than Israel BTW) so I'm not sure what that refers to. And yes there's some discontent among the Kurdish community at times, but they're not discriminated against like Palestinians by, for example, being restricted from jewish-only roads. And there's no UN mandate for a Kurdish nation in turkey. Pretty silly really to compare Kurds in turkey to palis in Israel. Lebanon as a parliamentary democracy another one that's arguably more democratic than Israel. You look more idiotic with every post and I didn't think that could be possible pages ago. Wow. Edited July 15, 2014 by Bronc24
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