3rdand12 Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 (edited) You are no longer allowed to be fan of this team. Your privileges are revoked. If YOU can no longer Billieve, then find a new team. If Trent Dilfer can hoist a Lombardi, then I have no reason not to Billlieve that EJ can as well. GO BILLS!!!! The thing is , or should be... do you believe the FO is trying to win ? are the players playing to win ?I think the majority is yes. Yes they are . Some folks have been so traumatized they cant see , or wont allow the hope to grow. being a fan of the Buffalo Bills is no simple matter it seems as i delve deeper into the mire and muck some have accrued here With Kiko is was predicting that we go 6 -0 in the division. Without Kiko I'll go with 4-2. I was 5-1 and im still 5-1. two squeakers and one heartbreaker Edited July 3, 2014 by 3rdand12
machine gun kelly Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Ok - look what happens when you have a busy day at work. OP, in the profound words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up Frances". There is no upside dude to going 0-16. How about we actually create momentum and capitalize on the additions we have in depth. Anyway, just enjoy your 4th and stop running down the hall with your hair on fire.
thewildrabbit Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 (edited) Man, and I thought i was pessimistic....is the OP a Browns fan? The OP lost credibility with me when he couldn't correctly recall last years overall win / lose record, and like others I couldn't finish reading his post. I certainly don't want this team to tank this year so Cleveland gets the first overall pick, and I question any Bills fans loyalty that desires that outcome. I'm hoping the team finishes the season with at least a 9-7 record so Whaley / Marrone / Hackett can finish* what they started. I'm very intrigued to see how EJ develops this year, and to see what that new 5.5 million dollar LG can do, along with the three new O line draft picks. Bottom line is new ownership will undoubtedly clean house should this team fall on its face this season, and anything less then a winning record would be unacceptable in my view. Edited July 4, 2014 by FeartheLosing
Orton's Arm Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Okay, I read this as the thesis/summary : Sorry to piss in your coffee this morning, but I've been thinking about this a lot since OTA's. But ask yourself this: are the pieces in place for this team to win a super bowl? Do you think EJ Manuel can be a Super Bowl winning quarterback? Ask yourself that. Don't just hit reply and tell me the sky isn't falling: ask yourself if you can picture EJ Manuel hoisting the lombardi trophy. If you're older than a 4th grader, the answer is likely "no." You might call it cherry-picking or mis-characterization; I call it putting a button on a rant. You said "nothing about his play in college suggested he should have been taken in the first two rounds"...he won 4 out of 4 Bowl games and put up good numbers. That's not nothing. Also, I'm not sure what gave you the idea that I didn't watch him play. And for the record, it's extremely likely that you have never watched "tape" of EJ Manuel. You've watched televised broadcasts, game videos, or YouTube highlights; not "tape". There's a huge difference...and yes, I know what to look for in a QB. If we're comparing EJ to Peyton Manning in his readiness to play in the NFL, then I'm perfectly fine with the fact that he's not up to snuff. If your assertion is that he's similar to Tebow, well, I'll have to ask if you've EVER seen him play at all? EJ can make the throws he needs to make in the NFL; college games (and some of his pro performances) show this...does he need to become more consistent? Absolutely. For the record, EJ was a 66.9% passer at FSU, and whether you want to acknowlege it or not, that stat does indeed tell the story regarding accuracy. You could claim--if you hadn't watched him--that this was a product of easy throws or short passes, but there's the whole YPA issue to confront. Tell me please: if he had a good completion percentage, and a very good YPA (both better than Manning in college by the way), how can he be so innaccurate? Or did you not watch him as you assumed I hadn't? I responded to the OP's post and the points therein...I did not assume anything about him or his learnedness, as you did. Your corrollary to Gladwell's Blink is, IMO, completely misplaced. We're not talking about the authenticity of antiques here; we're talking about a football player with the dynamic ability to change and become better. A statue is static, firm, etched in stone. A person is not; to be presumptuous enough to claim you know what a person is or isn't capable of based on a very, very small sample size is extremely misguided IMO. By the way, since we're quoting Gladwell, he also said this: "We prematurely write off people as failures. We are too much in awe of those who succeed and far too dismissive of those who fail.” Irony? So you'd have drafted a QB early if there's one you liked? Has it occurred to you that perhaps there wasn't one that they liked? Furthermore, isn't it possible that--looking down the road--they felt there isn't a franchise guy they'd like a whole lot in 2015 either? Perhaps you're chastising them for having the very forsight that you claim they lacked with their decision. Keep in mind it's very, very easy to criticize the move they didn't make while failing to provide an alternate plan--something you seem to have done. So you've seen enough from a 33-year old OC in one season with 2 rookies and a PS journeyman at QB to draw conclusions? You've seen enough of Manuel to say that he cannot execute a full playbook? I have to say that you're downright prescient if that's the case. Did you look back at the all-22 on Spiller last year? The opportunities were there (WGR and Buffalo Rumbling both have actual "tape" breakdowns of his missed plays); it's not Hackett's fault if he was missing holes. And for the record, he still had 4.8 YPC on the ground, so something must've been going right. Overall, the over-arching theme both from you and the OP is this: drawing conclusions based on incomplete-at-best information...so I say to you again: why don't we let this group have more than 1 season and see? > For the record, EJ was a 66.9% passer at FSU, and whether you want to acknowlege it or not, that stat does indeed tell the story regarding accuracy. Tim Tebow was a 67.1% passer at University of Florida. Do you feel that stat tells the story about Tebow's accuracy? > If your assertion is that he's similar to Tebow, well, I'll have to ask if you've EVER seen him play at all? My assertion is that most college QBs cannot process information quickly enough to become great at the NFL level. Manuel, Tebow, and Losman are similar in that respect. Just as the three QBs were also similar in having good foot speed. This is not to suggest that the three guys are identical across the board. > Tell me please: if he had a good completion percentage, and a very good YPA (both better than Manning in college by the way), how can he be so inaccurate? You keep bringing up his college stats. But you've inadequately addressed the issue I've raised. Namely, that there are plenty of college QBs who put up gaudy stats who later fail in the NFL. Below is a list of college QBs who won Heisman Trophies, from 1989 - 2011: Andre Ware Ty Detmer Gino Torretta Charlie Ward Danny Wuerffel Chris Weinke Eric Crouch Carson Palmer Jason White Matt Leinart Troy Smith Tim Tebow Sam Bradford Cam Newton Robert Griffin III While some of the guys on the list have gone on to have NFL success, most have been abject failures. But if you pick out any one of them, odds are he's going to have gaudy college stats. Danny Wuerffel averaged 9.3 yards per attempt in college. Chris Weinke averaged 8.9 yards per attempt in college. > Furthermore, isn't it possible that--looking down the road--they felt there isn't a franchise guy they'd like a whole lot in 2015 either? The above is a best-case scenario, at least if we're evaluating the competence of the front office. While what you described is possible, it's not very likely. Bear in mind that the 2015 draft class contains Hundley, Mariota, and Winston. I find it very difficult to believe the Bills' front office has already written off all three players so completely as to decide their 2015 first round pick would be wasted on a QB even if Manuel failed. > You've seen enough of Manuel to say that he cannot execute a full playbook? Nothing about Manuel's college play indicated he could handle the rapid information processing absolutely required to excel at the NFL level. It's possible that with more time and coaching, he'll show signs of that where there had been none before. Possible, but highly unlikely.
The Real Buffalo Joe Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Man, and I thought i was pessimistic....is the OP a Browns fan? Nah. Most Browns fans I've met are actually very knowledgable about football.
DC Tom Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 This organization is like the tree in your backyard that's dying. Oh sure, there are some branches with some green leaves on it, but by and large it's dead. You know it's dead, and the only thing to do is call a tree guy to come cut it down, chip it up, grind the stump, and give you the bill for it. That's the Bills for you right there--oh sure, Sammy Watkins may be great, Dareus is a pro bowler, Spiller has looked good in places... there's some healthy young, green leaf growth right there. But the trunk? Dead. Literally. We have a banner up top of the page in his honor. And before you jump down my throat and say "Is this another Kiko post? lol" consider the following--there was a point during the offseason (before the Byrd negotiations) where Marrone let it leak that there is a rift between the bean counters and the football guys. Breaking news: General Franco is still dead! I missed that "leak." I missed where that's new information - why do you THINK the Bills have had a coaching carousel for the past decade? And... Well, I'll lump them all together: everyone must go. I missed where that's any reason to replay the French Revolution and go all Jacobin on everyone's ass. Particularly with no owner to make that decision, you dumbass. See, here's the thing: I may be the biggest optimist on here. When the Bills are there usual 4-8, I'm the one on ESPN.com's playoff calculator figuring out just how easy it will be for the Bills to steal the 6 seed. I'm the one staying up to watch the Chargers/Bengals games in week 15, because it impacts the chances of the Bills getting a wild-card at 7-9. Affirming what you've already established at the start of your post: you ate too much lead paint as a child. But not this year. On offense: we lost our best receiver. Yes, our best receiver. I dont care about his antics, or what you think a true number 1 receiver should look like. It doesn't matter--Stevie Johnson was our biggest producer on offense over the last 3 years, and he's gone. Who will replace him? It's a gamble, but for whatever reason, Whaley saw fit to ship out our most productive offensive weapon. Our best running back is now a year older and 30 is long-since faded out of his rear-view mirror. We are, at this point in time, worse on offense. Oh sure, there's potential to be better, but for now, we are worse. Let's look at the numbers from this point last season compared to this season: 2014 season: so far, the offense has gained 0 yards and scored 0 points. 2013 season: by this point (July) in the 2013 season, the offense had gained 0 yards and scored 0 points. But on the plus side, there's no uncertainty surrounding Kevin Kolb's ability to navigate rubber floor mats...so it looks like, so far, 2014 is a net gain. Admittedly, that's very specious logic...but it's still one more objective measurable than you've provided to support your arrant nonsense. On defense: our coordinator, gone. our best safety, gone. our best linebacker, done for the season. our best d-lineman, in trouble with the law. this is a problem. The strength of our 5-11 unit is now weaker. this is undeniable. do not try to tell me that i am a glass half empty person, this point is irrefutable: our defense is weaker. special teams: an absolute disaster last season, remains largely intact. Same coaching. this is also a problem. Dareus is our best lineman? When did that happen? Unless you're defining "best" strictly by tackles...in which case, when did we lose Aaron Williams? Or are we judging safety strictly by passes defended and interceptions, in which case...when did we lose Aaron Williams? News flash, bonehead: the Bills' defense last year got production from ALL over the field. Byrd and Alonso are good players, Alonso had a great season...neither was the end-all and be-all of the defense (four players had 4 interceptions; three players had double-digit sacks - and tell me the last time THAT happened. Even when Bruce Smith played, there was only ONE season where someone else had double-digit sacks.) And the idea that Dareus is somehow washed up because he has a court date is just silly. And most importantly (as everyone will note) our quarterback, because this is what our season hinges on, right?: missed too many games to injury last season, a major major problem that Bills fans seem to be in denial about. 3 knee injuries in one season? THREE KNEE INJURIES IN ONE SEASON? If that happened to Brady, we would be dancing in the street. If that happened to Brady, we'd be laughing our asses off at the stupidity of an organization that lets their QB play on an unhealed knee. Generally, one knee injury is season-ending. THREE knee injuries indicates poor player management that should not be considered a reflection on the player, or a three-legged mutant at the QB position. ...mindless blather cut for sanity reasons... Sorry to piss in your coffee this morning, but I've been thinking about this a lot since OTA's. But ask yourself this: are the pieces in place for this team to win a super bowl? Do you think EJ Manuel can be a Super Bowl winning quarterback? Ask yourself that. Don't just hit reply and tell me the sky isn't falling: ask yourself if you can picture EJ Manuel hoisting the lombardi trophy. If you're older than a 4th grader, the answer is likely "no." If you're older than a 4th grader, you're reflecting on Trent Dilfer's Superbowl ring, and the answer is likely "yes." So open your mind. Let's be happy when Pegula takes over ownership, and then let's just enjoy this season for what it is: the curtain call for Bills football as we've known it for 2 decades. Yes, it's going to be painful to watch us struggle this year, and yes it's going to be even worse next offseason knowing we don't have a first round pick, but good times are on the horizon. Why in the ever-lovin' !@#$ would you start a post hoping for 0-16 and the first pick in the draft for the FRIGGIN' CLEVELAND BROWNS, then end with looking forward to the "good times" on the horizon? You just posted a truly inordinate amount of cyber-drool explaining why good times are emphatically NOT on the horizon. What the !@#$ sort of brain damage do you have? Where is DC Tom when we really need him? You're welcome.
Maury Ballstein Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Lets go 16-0 and win the whole !@#$ing thing! This makes more sense. 16-0 it is.
fansince88 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Just because your brain has diarrhea doesn't mean you have to share the crap with the rest of us. Of all the replies....this my fine friend....is the best!!! What a load of crap this post is.
Bill from NYC Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 > So the entire post is "I'm an optimist, and I think we suck, so you should all agree with my opinions or you're 4th graders"? That is a blatant mischaracterization of the OP. > No, the offense isn't worse. You're probably right. Young WRs like Woods will have another year of experience. That will help; as will the new offensive linemen you noted, and the addition of Watkins. > To say the defense is worse is an assumption, not an undeniable truth as you claim. That may be, but Pettine did a lot with a little. My impression of Schwartz is that he doesn't have Pettine's level of creativity or innovation. Schwartz's defenses look good when all the pieces are just so. But nothing about his track record suggests he has Pettine's gift for using lemons to make lemonade. > As to EJ, nobody knows whether or not he's a franchise guy... Perhaps. But nothing about his play in college suggested he should have been taken in the first two rounds. When you reach for a third round QB in the first round, you don't then have a guy who's as likely to succeed as any other first round QB. > all I can tell you is that it would be irrefutably ignorant for someone to gauge their opinion based on whether or not they can picture a guy lifting a piece of metal If you read the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, you might change your view about this. The OP is 100% right about the need to get rid of the bean counters. Littmann and Overdorf have been harming this franchise for decades. I think he's also right about the need to get rid of Marrone and his coaching staff. The one creative, innovative part of that coaching staff was Pettine; and Pettine is now in Cleveland. And--I hate to say this--but he's probably also right about the need to get rid of the front office. Signing the worst offensive lineman of the Rams to a multi-year, solid starter money contract was a head-scratching move. The kind of move Marv the GM would have made. Going all-in on EJ--as Whaley did this past draft--is the kind of mistake which gets you fired. I think that you know how much I enjoy your posts. That said, wanting the Bills to go 0-16 is impossible to defend under any conditions, let alone in a year in which they squandered a future first round draft choice which could quite possibly be a top 5 selection. The truth, in my strong opinion, is that even if the Bills reach 8-8, Whaley, Marrone, Hackett and Schwartz will be well deservedly fired. Think about it.....which of these men would get another NFL job at their current level? Whaley? I doubt it. Hackett? Little to no chance. Schwartz? Highly doubtful. Marrone? He would be lucky to get a job as an OC. My guess would be OL Assistant Coach. Brandon? He might catch on at Ringling Brothers. Maybe. Btw, Whaley's first draft was interesting. He took a first round qb and actually gained a second round pick while doing so. This, imo, is to be praised, given the talent of Kiko and Woods, a particular favorite of mine. The 2014 draft was marked by utter desperation imo. Whaley and especially Marrone knew that there days are numbered, so they went "all in" by trading the future for a wideout. They could have traded DOWN in this draft and picked a perfectly good receiver but again, their jobs were clearly on the line. My opinion of EJ might differ from yours. I think he would be fine as a read option QB. If his body cannot stand up, so be it. At this point Lewis is as good as EJ, although I readily admit that EJ has a higher ceiling. In any event my friend, there is NO room to defend wanting to go 0-16 in any season, and this would be the worst one to do so. May you, and anyone who reads this have a great 4th!
fansince88 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 By the way DC Tom has spoken. Great job DC Tom, please close the post Mods! PLEASE??
DanInUticaTampa Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I would love to call the OP crazy, but with my luck it seems just iike the bills to bottom out the year they don't have a first rounder. Too much to bottom out in a year with an Andrew luck/ Cam Newton and have a first round pick intact. Now, hoping the team bottoms out just to get people fired is crazy. I don't care that much who gets fired and not anymore. I just want a winning team, no matter who is running the show. I want a winning team, I don't want a bad season just to fire people. I am hoping for a winning season. Buffalo haters may root against that, but I won't ever cheer for this team to lose. Especially when there is no first round pick.
Sweet Lou Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I read the OP's entire post and I will admit that the read did require some patience. I was puzzled about some of his comments, then agreed with some and disagreed with others. However; The post didn't anger me, like it somehow managed to anger others. Opinions are like !@#$s and we all have one. And while some are nicer than others, It definitely could be worse. Imagine If everybody had the same opinion! Our lives would be a journey through the desert. Be thankful. Happy 4th everybody. Lou.
Orton's Arm Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I think that you know how much I enjoy your posts. That said, wanting the Bills to go 0-16 is impossible to defend under any conditions, let alone in a year in which they squandered a future first round draft choice which could quite possibly be a top 5 selection. The truth, in my strong opinion, is that even if the Bills reach 8-8, Whaley, Marrone, Hackett and Schwartz will be well deservedly fired. Think about it.....which of these men would get another NFL job at their current level? Whaley? I doubt it. Hackett? Little to no chance. Schwartz? Highly doubtful. Marrone? He would be lucky to get a job as an OC. My guess would be OL Assistant Coach. Brandon? He might catch on at Ringling Brothers. Maybe. Btw, Whaley's first draft was interesting. He took a first round qb and actually gained a second round pick while doing so. This, imo, is to be praised, given the talent of Kiko and Woods, a particular favorite of mine. The 2014 draft was marked by utter desperation imo. Whaley and especially Marrone knew that there days are numbered, so they went "all in" by trading the future for a wideout. They could have traded DOWN in this draft and picked a perfectly good receiver but again, their jobs were clearly on the line. My opinion of EJ might differ from yours. I think he would be fine as a read option QB. If his body cannot stand up, so be it. At this point Lewis is as good as EJ, although I readily admit that EJ has a higher ceiling. In any event my friend, there is NO room to defend wanting to go 0-16 in any season, and this would be the worst one to do so. May you, and anyone who reads this have a great 4th! > I think that you know how much I enjoy your posts. I feel the same way about yours. During the season, I always look forward to reading your thoughts about the game (in no particular order). > That said, wanting the Bills to go 0-16 is impossible to defend under any conditions Tom Landry was a legendary coach. But when the Cowboys went 1-15, he was fired. Jimmy Johnson took his place; and was also given control of player personnel decisions. Because of that 1-15 season, the Cowboys received the first overall pick--which they used on Troy Aikman. If Tom Landry had gone 8-8 or 9-7 that year, instead of 1-15, he might not have gotten fired. The Cowboys wouldn't have drafted Aikman or hired Jimmy Johnson; and wouldn't have gone on to win those Super Bowls. Would you take a 1-15 or 0-16 season if it meant the Bills would soon win three Super Bowls in four years? To give a few more examples: back in 1997, the Colts went 1-15. They used the first overall pick on Peyton Manning. As Manning was nearing retirement they went 2-14; and used the first overall pick on Andrew Luck. The closest the Bills have come to doing something like that was in 1984; when we went 1-15. We used the first overall pick of the '85 draft on Bruce Smith. It's better to go 1-15 and get a Bruce Smith or a Peyton Manning; than go 5-11 and get stuck with Donte Whitner. Unless you've traded your first round pick in next year's draft to the Cleveland Browns. But even then, a 1-15 season could work out in our favor, if it resulted in the same magnitude of front office upgrade that the Cowboys experienced after Landry's 1-15 season. While I won't be rooting for a 1-15 season, neither will you see me attack the OP. > Btw, Whaley's first draft was interesting. He took a first round qb and actually gained a second round pick while doing so. It's not clear how much of that was Whaley and how much was Nix. Either way, the Robert Woods and Kiko picks were excellent choices. > so they went "all in" by trading the future for a wideout. Sometimes a team is better off with one elite player than two good players. I'm not opposed to Watkins type trades in principle. I just wish we hadn't traded away next year's first rounder when there are serious question marks at quarterback. > At this point Lewis is as good as EJ, At least statistically, Lewis played significantly better than EJ during 2013. By no means am I suggesting we should write off every QB who has a bad rookie year. It's good to be patient--at least with QBs who should have been first round picks in the first place.
3rdand12 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Ok - look what happens when you have a busy day at work. OP, in the profound words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up Frances". There is no upside dude to going 0-16. How about we actually create momentum and capitalize on the additions we have in depth. Anyway, just enjoy your 4th and stop running down the hall with your hair on fire. Ha ha . i sure did chuckle MGK. hair on fire. still laughing
3rdand12 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 This makes more sense. 16-0 it is. Call me Blind Melon Chitlin. This, is all i ever envision this time of year. Winning every game. Thinking otherwise might be realistic but harshes my buzz . Its really not that hard if you try . Winning. it can be done .
BobDVA Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I have the need to let it be known, that I have not read the OP post, or any comments that followed it. Thank You!
Rocky Landing Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I have the need to let it be known, that I have not read the OP post, or any comments that followed it. Thank You! You're better for it.
Cynical Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 > I think that you know how much I enjoy your posts. I feel the same way about yours. During the season, I always look forward to reading your thoughts about the game (in no particular order). > That said, wanting the Bills to go 0-16 is impossible to defend under any conditions Tom Landry was a legendary coach. But when the Cowboys went 1-15, he was fired. Jimmy Johnson took his place; and was also given control of player personnel decisions. Because of that 1-15 season, the Cowboys received the first overall pick--which they used on Troy Aikman. Ah, no. That is incorrect. Jerry Jones bought the team in February of 1989, and fired Tom Landry soon after. The Cowboys went 1-15 in 1989 under the direction of HC Jimmy Johnson. If Tom Landry had gone 8-8 or 9-7 that year, instead of 1-15, he might not have gotten fired. The Cowboys wouldn't have drafted Aikman or hired Jimmy Johnson; and wouldn't have gone on to win those Super Bowls. Would you take a 1-15 or 0-16 season if it meant the Bills would soon win three Super Bowls in four years? Landry's last season as HC was 1988, and the Cowboys went 3-13. In 1987, the Cowboys went 7-8 (strike year, replacement players). In 1986, the Cowboys went 7-9. He was good as gone. .It's better to go 1-15 and get a Bruce Smith or a Peyton Manning; than go 5-11 and get stuck with Donte Whitner. While I think I get the point you are trying to make, this is a mischaracterization. The Bills did not get "stuck" with Whitner. They chose him. They could have just as easily chose Ngata. The fact the Bills chose Whitner over Ngata is more of a reflection of just how terrible Levy/Jauron were, and not draft position. IMHO, the Bills could have just as easily had the first overall pick, and Levy/Jauron would still have found a way to !@#$ it up (i.e. They probaly still would have drafted Whitner, and reference Maybin). At least statistically, Lewis played significantly better than EJ during 2013. By no means am I suggesting we should write off every QB who has a bad rookie year. It's good to be patient--at least with QBs who should have been first round picks in the first place. As you said, Lewis played better than EJ "statistically", but my eyes tell me there is nothing about his play that suggests he is anything more than a backup at best.My eyes tell me EJ has a higher potential. He may never become a "great" QB, but I do think he will better than Thad.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 If the wheels are going to come off, I'd rather we do it next season so we can at least start fresh with a nice shiny 1st round draft pick. I agree with much of what you say, though. This is a rather poorly run organization, and it starts at the top. We have some pretty glaring holes at important positions. Our coaches are questionable at best. We do not have an easy schedule. I could easily see us come away with a 4 win season. BUT... if those question marks have positive answers, I could easily see us with 10 wins. Either way, I'll be watching and rooting, and hoping for the best. The wheels have been off for a very long time.
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