Orton's Arm Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 This thread is amazing. I look at the 2014 Bills and I see the talent level as the best that it's been in a decade. Are there questions about ownership? Yup. Are there questions about the FO? Yup. Are there questions about the coaching staff? Yup. What I'm left with is a team that possesses more talent at key positions vs. the past decade. I'm left with a coaching staff that has been improved over 2013 (how? well, they now have a majordomo for Hackett to lean on and they have a QB coach. For those of you ringing your hands over the loss of Pettine I would suggest that you go watch the tape of the 2013 season with both eyes open. The key components also have a year of experience under their belts.). I'm left with the strongest running game in the NFL that has been improved significantly over 2013. I'm left with an offensive line that should be head & shoulders better than the 2013 group. Too many in this thread are those that others point to when they say that there are people on this site who do really want the team to fail (to prove themselves correct). That quite frankly sucks. You don't have to be head over heels in love with the team, but prior to the start of a season (heck, prior to the start of TC) you can't find anything to like? You can't post something without also taking a backhand at the GM, or coach, or QB? You always have to focus on the negative? If you've been here long enough to know you understand that I have serious concerns about several aspects of the team. I don't let those concerns overwhelm me though. I have hope and I can't wait for the 2014 season to get kicked off. > You don't have to be head over heels in love with the team, but prior to the start of a > season (heck, prior to the start of TC) you can't find anything to like? You can't post > something without also taking a backhand at the GM, or coach, or QB? You always > have to focus on the negative? The Bills haven't won a playoff game since 1995. Since then, there's been a lot of heartbreak. We've also been sold a lot of false hope. Many of us--including me--have bought into at least some of these false hopes. In the late '90s, I remember getting excited about the quarterback Rob Johnson would become. I remember believing an article about how Erik Flowers was going to "bloom." I remember my excitement over the Mike Williams pick. After getting your feet knocked out from under you enough times, you stop swallowing everything you're fed. You abandon the "front office must know best" belief held by many Bills' fans, and start doing your own thinking. Did the team do some positive things this offseason? Absolutely. Sammy Watkins has the potential to be an elite playmaker. Talent has been added at RB and on the offensive line. Some other players have been added too. I acknowledge all that. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I don't see a plan in place to build a Super Bowl winner. At best, I see a plan which--if successful--will create a team like the Mark Sanchez Jets; back when that Jets team was good. I'm talking about a team which goes maybe 10-6, wins a playoff game or two, and gets knocked out in the divisional round. I'm not saying this stuff is what will happen. I'm saying it's the ceiling of Whaley's plan. It's not a scenario which will last very long either. After one or two of those 10-6 seasons, the team will decline; much like the Mark Sanchez Jets declined. But plenty of my fellow Bills fans don't see things that way. They are buying into the hype, just as I once bought into the hype from some of the earlier Bills' regimes. It's less painful to take a realistic view from the beginning, than it is to build a tower of hope on a foundation of quicksand. I know from personal experience what it's like to pour emotional energy into this team, only to have them rip your heart out. I don't want to see other Bills fans exposed to this any more than necessary.
thewildrabbit Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 The Bills haven't won a playoff game since 1995. Since then, there's been a lot of heartbreak. We've also been sold a lot of false hope. Many of us--including me--have bought into at least some of these false hopes. In the late '90s, I remember getting excited about the quarterback Rob Johnson would become. I remember believing an article about how Erik Flowers was going to "bloom." I remember my excitement over the Mike Williams pick. After getting your feet knocked out from under you enough times, you stop swallowing everything you're fed. You abandon the "front office must know best" belief held by many Bills' fans, and start doing your own thinking. Did the team do some positive things this offseason? Absolutely. Sammy Watkins has the potential to be an elite playmaker. Talent has been added at RB and on the offensive line. Some other players have been added too. I acknowledge all that. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I don't see a plan in place to build a Super Bowl winner. At best, I see a plan which--if successful--will create a team like the Mark Sanchez Jets; back when that Jets team was good. I'm talking about a team which goes maybe 10-6, wins a playoff game or two, and gets knocked out in the divisional round. I'm not saying this stuff is what will happen. I'm saying it's the ceiling of Whaley's plan. It's not a scenario which will last very long either. After one or two of those 10-6 seasons, the team will decline; much like the Mark Sanchez Jets declined. But plenty of my fellow Bills fans don't see things that way. They are buying into the hype, just as I once bought into the hype from some of the earlier Bills' regimes. It's less painful to take a realistic view from the beginning, than it is to build a tower of hope on a foundation of quicksand. I know from personal experience what it's like to pour emotional energy into this team, only to have them rip your heart out. I don't want to see other Bills fans exposed to this any more than necessary. Then there is also the point of being a realist, and not wearing the rose colored glasses all the time. Looking at things from the outside, and being able to see things from a different perspective. In regards to Sammy Watkins, exactly how many 6-10 teams can you name that traded away their next years #1 draft pick for a WR? So many fans here keep making the comparison to the 2011 Atlanta Falcons. That Falcon team was previously 13-3 in 2010, 10-6 in 2011, and thinking all they needed was another playmaking WR to open up the offense. That Falcon team that gave up so may draft picks for a WR already had their #1 WR in Roddy White, a top TE In Tony Gonzalaz, a decent O line, and run game. The biggest point being is that they already had a playoff caliber QB in Matt Ryan. Now looking back at a 4-12 season in 2013, and that five player trade for Julio Jones not only seems foolish, its looks to me to be downright moronic. Simply because those four draft picks would have gone a long way to help keeping that team a playoff team. A first round, a second round, and two number four draft picks all given up for one player who only played five games last year. That's right, I think the Falcons were downright moronic to trade away that many picks for a WR when they could have drafted Torry Smith in the second round or opted for free agents Vincent Jackson, Sidney Rice that year. The Buffalo Bills basically traded away their starting #1 WR in Stevie Johnson for a third string RB in Bryce Brown. SJ a player who loved playing for the Bills, was usually always open, and was playing injured a lot last year. Then they brought in a troubled, injured WR from the Buc's in Mike Williams who may or may not even make the team. If Williams does make the team this year he probably won't be the #1 WR, and most likely will be behind both Watkins, and Woods. Then there are the odds of how successful a rookie WR will be in the NFL. Had Watkins gone to a team with an already established QB such as Brady, Brees, Manning. He might flourish, or he might not. Rookies tend to make rookie mistakes, and those can lead to INT's when the wrong route is run or a mishap miscommunication with the play. Which then leads to lost confidence between the QB- WR. The odds of a rookie WR making a big impact his first year is usually marginal. ESPN has Watkins ranked as the 48th best fantasy WR this year, and behind Woods. NFL.com has him at #44, and ahead of Woods. Some say this move was to save jobs... on the contrary it will more then likely put another nail in this front office. So, in all probability this Watkins trade will come back to haunt Bills fans next year when Cleveland makes that #1 selection instead of Buffalo.
thebandit27 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Just so we're all clear here: history is 100% irrelevant as to how this front office staff goes about building their team. Yes, completely irrelevant. It does not matter at all what the team has done the last 14 seasons; build the team the way you believe it should be built. Only frightened fans care about what previous regimes did. It does not matter at all whether or not another team would've made the Watkins trade; if he's the best offensive player in the draft, and that's what you're after, go get him and let his play on Sundays prove you right. You think the Seahawks cared at all that every other team laughed at the Bruce Irvin pick 3 seasons ago? Think they care now? Anyone think they cared what people thought when they traded 1st, 4th, and 7th round picks for a WR whose career stat line is strikingly similar to Stevie Johnson, and then said WR failed his physical and missed the entire regular season? Think they care now? Guys, this stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, I know, 14 years, bean counters, blah blah blah; it's all rubbish. If you're scared, get a dog. If you're a Bills' fan, suck it up and watch. /rant over Edit: sorry, one more thing...we've devolved into using ESPN's fantasy rankings to evaluate the Watkins trade now? Man, I need to take my kids outside. Edited July 6, 2014 by thebandit27
JohnC Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) > You don't have to be head over heels in love with the team, but prior to the start of a > season (heck, prior to the start of TC) you can't find anything to like? You can't post > something without also taking a backhand at the GM, or coach, or QB? You always > have to focus on the negative? The Bills haven't won a playoff game since 1995. Since then, there's been a lot of heartbreak. We've also been sold a lot of false hope. Many of us--including me--have bought into at least some of these false hopes. In the late '90s, I remember getting excited about the quarterback Rob Johnson would become. I remember believing an article about how Erik Flowers was going to "bloom." I remember my excitement over the Mike Williams pick. After getting your feet knocked out from under you enough times, you stop swallowing everything you're fed. You abandon the "front office must know best" belief held by many Bills' fans, and start doing your own thinking. Did the team do some positive things this offseason? Absolutely. Sammy Watkins has the potential to be an elite playmaker. Talent has been added at RB and on the offensive line. Some other players have been added too. I acknowledge all that. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I don't see a plan in place to build a Super Bowl winner. At best, I see a plan which--if successful--will create a team like the Mark Sanchez Jets; back when that Jets team was good. I'm talking about a team which goes maybe 10-6, wins a playoff game or two, and gets knocked out in the divisional round. I'm not saying this stuff is what will happen. I'm saying it's the ceiling of Whaley's plan. It's not a scenario which will last very long either. After one or two of those 10-6 seasons, the team will decline; much like the Mark Sanchez Jets declined. But plenty of my fellow Bills fans don't see things that way. They are buying into the hype, just as I once bought into the hype from some of the earlier Bills' regimes. It's less painful to take a realistic view from the beginning, than it is to build a tower of hope on a foundation of quicksand. I know from personal experience what it's like to pour emotional energy into this team, only to have them rip your heart out. I don't want to see other Bills fans exposed to this any more than necessary. I don't understand your position of not buying into the hype. What hype are you referring to? Is this a SB caliber team? Of course not. Who is promoting that ideal notion? The organization surely isn't promoting that zany idea. You again lost me with your nebulous comments about the failure of this franchise's staff not building a foundation for a SB. What dos that mean? If the orgnization drafts well and finds their franchise qb then they can compete at a higher level and position themselves for a more serious SB run some day down the line. How else can it be done? Why do you insist that they are not only not doing that but that they are as they are currently functioning not planning on doing that? The Bills have been out of the playoffs for 14 consecutive years. Under Whaley they are steadily upgrading the roster. The drafts are better and the free agent acquisitions are very sound. The central issue for this franchise is over the qb issue. Is EJ the answer? You conclusively say no whle I suggest that we should be more patient on the qb issue and see how it plays out. What has me perplexed is that I don't know what more you want this front office to do that they haven't been doing over the last couple of years? You have to remember that this historically backwater franchise has for a very long time been been run in an erratic faashion by utter incompetents. You don't think that the Levy hiring as a GM was weird? The Dick Jauron hring wasn't very inspiring. And extending his contract was simply dispiriting. It seems to me under Whaley he has stabilized this very chaotic organization and made it into a normal franchise that hopefully in the near future will be a successful franchise. Edited July 6, 2014 by JohnC
dave mcbride Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) > You don't have to be head over heels in love with the team, but prior to the start of a > season (heck, prior to the start of TC) you can't find anything to like? You can't post > something without also taking a backhand at the GM, or coach, or QB? You always > have to focus on the negative? The Bills haven't won a playoff game since 1995. Since then, there's been a lot of heartbreak. We've also been sold a lot of false hope. Many of us--including me--have bought into at least some of these false hopes. In the late '90s, I remember getting excited about the quarterback Rob Johnson would become. I remember believing an article about how Erik Flowers was going to "bloom." I remember my excitement over the Mike Williams pick. After getting your feet knocked out from under you enough times, you stop swallowing everything you're fed. You abandon the "front office must know best" belief held by many Bills' fans, and start doing your own thinking. Did the team do some positive things this offseason? Absolutely. Sammy Watkins has the potential to be an elite playmaker. Talent has been added at RB and on the offensive line. Some other players have been added too. I acknowledge all that. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I don't see a plan in place to build a Super Bowl winner. At best, I see a plan which--if successful--will create a team like the Mark Sanchez Jets; back when that Jets team was good. I'm talking about a team which goes maybe 10-6, wins a playoff game or two, and gets knocked out in the divisional round. I'm not saying this stuff is what will happen. I'm saying it's the ceiling of Whaley's plan. It's not a scenario which will last very long either. After one or two of those 10-6 seasons, the team will decline; much like the Mark Sanchez Jets declined. But plenty of my fellow Bills fans don't see things that way. They are buying into the hype, just as I once bought into the hype from some of the earlier Bills' regimes. It's less painful to take a realistic view from the beginning, than it is to build a tower of hope on a foundation of quicksand. I know from personal experience what it's like to pour emotional energy into this team, only to have them rip your heart out. I don't want to see other Bills fans exposed to this any more than necessary. Why is Manuel comparable to Sanchez? It seems that you entire argument boils down to a disbelief in Manuel -- and your argument has neen that for about a year now. Will Manuel bust out and be a good player? I don't know, but neither do you. After all, you admitted to believing that Rob Johnson would be great. Johnson was an (alleged) first round talent who fell to the fourth. In your eyes and based on minimal watching of FSU games, Manuel is a fourth round talent who fell up to the first (and the Bills weren't the only team who saw him as a first round talent). I'll trust the scouts and GMs here. If you can admit to yourself that we're still in wait-and-see mode regarding Manuel (which we really and truly are), you might enjoy the preseason a bit more and be less pessimistic. Just as with the Bills, I'll hold out some hope for you. Edited July 6, 2014 by dave mcbride
RuntheDamnBall Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 > You don't have to be head over heels in love with the team, but prior to the start of a > season (heck, prior to the start of TC) you can't find anything to like? You can't post > something without also taking a backhand at the GM, or coach, or QB? You always > have to focus on the negative? The Bills haven't won a playoff game since 1995. Since then, there's been a lot of heartbreak. We've also been sold a lot of false hope. Many of us--including me--have bought into at least some of these false hopes. In the late '90s, I remember getting excited about the quarterback Rob Johnson would become. I remember believing an article about how Erik Flowers was going to "bloom." I remember my excitement over the Mike Williams pick. After getting your feet knocked out from under you enough times, you stop swallowing everything you're fed. You abandon the "front office must know best" belief held by many Bills' fans, and start doing your own thinking. Did the team do some positive things this offseason? Absolutely. Sammy Watkins has the potential to be an elite playmaker. Talent has been added at RB and on the offensive line. Some other players have been added too. I acknowledge all that. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I don't see a plan in place to build a Super Bowl winner. At best, I see a plan which--if successful--will create a team like the Mark Sanchez Jets; back when that Jets team was good. I'm talking about a team which goes maybe 10-6, wins a playoff game or two, and gets knocked out in the divisional round. I'm not saying this stuff is what will happen. I'm saying it's the ceiling of Whaley's plan. It's not a scenario which will last very long either. After one or two of those 10-6 seasons, the team will decline; much like the Mark Sanchez Jets declined. You know, Mark Sanchez sucks, but if you're referring to the "Mark Sanchez Jets" that made it to the AFC championship game twice, yeah, I think that'd be OK. There is so much fortune involved in making the Super Bowl - relative to health, clutch performance, the 3-4 plays that change a game - that I don't think any of us could possibly be mad if this team made it to the NFL's equivalent of a semifinal two seasons in a row. If they were to tank after that based on hubris, bravado, and bad drafting, sure -- get mad. Right now, with no playoffs in the rearview for 14 seasons running, maybe we should see how this plays out rather than banking on ignorant fan assessments of a guy with 10 games in the league. To say nothing of the fact that this was a guy that the team did not plan to have starting from day one. Every rational observer's best grade on Manuel was "A+ potential, raw, needs seasoning." But "he's not Andrew Luck and I want what I want now now now so 0-16, because playoffs."
Beerball Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Just so we're all clear here: history is 100% irrelevant as to how this front office staff goes about building their team. Yes, completely irrelevant. It does not matter at all what the team has done the last 14 seasons; build the team the way you believe it should be built. Only frightened fans care about what previous regimes did. It does not matter at all whether or not another team would've made the Watkins trade; if he's the best offensive player in the draft, and that's what you're after, go get him and let his play on Sundays prove you right. You think the Seahawks cared at all that every other team laughed at the Bruce Irvin pick 3 seasons ago? Think they care now? Anyone think they cared what people thought when they traded 1st, 4th, and 7th round picks for a WR whose career stat line is strikingly similar to Stevie Johnson, and then said WR failed his physical and missed the entire regular season? Think they care now? Guys, this stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, I know, 14 years, bean counters, blah blah blah; it's all rubbish. If you're scared, get a dog. If you're a Bills' fan, suck it up and watch. /rant over Edit: sorry, one more thing...we've devolved into using ESPN's fantasy rankings to evaluate the Watkins trade now? Man, I need to take my kids outside. What does matter?
chris heff Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) I don't understand being a fan of a team and hoping they lose. I don't understand hoping that players or coaches fail just to be right. I've been a Bills fan pretty much from the beginning. I never, never root for them to lose. I never root for failure from anyone associated with this team. I'm not delusional, I know when the team is a mess. It's hard to be optimistic some times, like when Levy is named GM and Jauron is named HC. We all pretty much knew that wasn't going to work out, but I didn't wish for failure. I have long believed the problem with the Bills came down to one individual and that was Ralph Wilson. Prior to that team of the 90s Ralph was not considered to be a good owner. That team was built by Polian, who became GM by default. Ralph Wilson was instrumental in building the NFL of today, but a good owner? No. The amount of bone headed moves are too numerous to list. When Ralph relinquest controll to Ross Branden and what subsiqently happened gave me more hope than I had for decades. Whaley becoming GM and the hiring of Marrone was completely un-Wilson like. Yes I know that the bean counters stayed. No one knows how this is going to turn out. There will be new ownership. I hope that Whaley and Marrone have enough success that the new owner doesn't feel the need to blow the whole thing up. I think that blowing it up would be a set back. Edited July 6, 2014 by chris heff
thebandit27 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 What does matter? If you're asking in an existential sense, then I'll go with something thought provoking like "everything...and nothing...and bacon". I we're addressing solely the team, I'll go with (1) whether or not the QB develops, (2) how the defense comes together with the various additions and subtractions, and (3) how healthy they stay throughout the season. The point here being that criticizing the current regime based on past regimes' failures is silly IMO, as is panning the Watkins trade because no other team has recently made a similar trade (or because ESPN ranks him low on their fantasy draft chart).
EasternOHBillsFan Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 On offense: we lost our best receiver. Yes, our best receiver. I dont care about his antics, or what you think a true number 1 receiver should look like. It doesn't matter--Stevie Johnson was our biggest producer on offense over the last 3 years, and he's gone. Who will replace him? It's a gamble, but for whatever reason, Whaley saw fit to ship out our most productive offensive weapon. Our best running back is now a year older and 30 is long-since faded out of his rear-view mirror. We are, at this point in time, worse on offense. Oh sure, there's potential to be better, but for now, we are worse. You lost all credibility with this statement!! SJ was NOT our best WR last year, and isn't this year if he stays. You confuse numbers over a past number of seasons with PRESENT production. Robert Woods outplayed SJ in a number of games, and it is not difficult at all for most everyone but you to see now why we got rid of him. Ohh, and we did pick up another RB from the Eagles, in case you didn't notice... and even if Spiller underwhelms, we have more beef at RB than we have had in YEARS. I'll accept the Manuel criticism, but this idea we are worse is insanity.
K-9 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Hey, I'm just impressed that Edwards' Arm was able to denigrate EJ Manuel without citing YPA and using the term "mental bandwidth" in order to do so. GO BILLS!!!
thewildrabbit Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) First off, In regards to my last post in this thread, and Sammy Watkins. Don't get me wrong here as I genuinely like the kid, and hope he turns out to be another Julio Jones clone. The odds just show that first round wide receivers usually have a huge NFL learning curve to contend with just like any other position, and most don't become superstars their first season. Particularly when you also have a second year QB who is still learning the game himself. Case in point, even the mighty Calvin Johnson only had 48 receptions for 756 yards, 4 TD's his first season. Then you have OC Nathaniel Hackett, and when the Bills needed a brilliant tactician running the offense considering you have three rookie QB's on the roster. Instead the Bills had a hammer who chose to run the ball 70+% of the time mid guard, or up the middle. Actually, he was more like a jackhammer in the way he forced CJ Spiller to try and make plays between the tackles instead of getting him in space like his predecessor used to do. The Bills were the #2 team in the NFL in rushing yards, and the #1 team in attempts. Yet, that didn't win many games for them because the offense was trying to run a hurry up offense with rookie QB's, and that limited their ability to stay on the field. Last season the Bills were one of the very worst teams in the NFL in 3rd and out percentage because of that hurry up offense. It remains to be seen if this second year offensive coordinator can develop that first round pick at QB EJ into a top 15 QB, and to me that is the most important aspect of the upcoming season. I remain highly skeptical about this coaching staff considering all the mistakes they made their first season. Then you have Doug Whaley who has been masterful at helping to build a great defense by adding so many good players in that area of the team. The other side has been treated differently, as you have the offense, and the Bills making the decision to let their best pass blocker leave in free agency, and replacing him with utter garbage that was cut and released by week six during last year. Then the backup center who has graded poorly throughout his career was the replacement at LG, and he played up to his grading. This left the Bills precariously thin on the O line all season, and they were exceeding lucky to have not suffered any further serious injuries on that line last year. Then this off season free agency the Bills brought in another player who graded as the very worst player on his last team, and throughout his career. Paying 5.5 million for a player who wouldn't even make it as a backup on some of the better teams in the NFL. A very questionable move by Whaley considering the Bills are trying to develop three young QB's, and need the very best pass protection they can get. The one big addition to the line was a new RT drafted in the second round. Whaley finally adding some quality talent to a very suspect line. I still question the talent at the two OG positions. Whaley has made some mistake in his first year as an NFL GM, and history shows that bad teams usually don't evolve into good teams after so many mistakes. I see where the OP is coming from, and he just went way overboard in stating he wants the team to tank and go 0-16. No true Bills fan can't possibly want to see another team get the first overall pick because of their bad season. Like I said earlier I'm hoping that the Bills overcome some very questionable decisions made by this regime, and finish this season with at least a 9-7 record. Will they? The eternal optimistic Bills fan in me says HECK YEAH! The realist in me says no way, and the result is a new coaching staff / FO after ownership changes hands. I will always support change until this franchise starts to have winning seasons....or at least shows improvement in the W / L column Edited July 6, 2014 by FeartheLosing
Beerball Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 If you're asking in an existential sense, then I'll go with something thought provoking like "everything...and nothing...and bacon". I we're addressing solely the team, I'll go with (1) whether or not the QB develops, (2) how the defense comes together with the various additions and subtractions, and (3) how healthy they stay throughout the season. The point here being that criticizing the current regime based on past regimes' failures is silly IMO, as is panning the Watkins trade because no other team has recently made a similar trade (or because ESPN ranks him low on their fantasy draft chart). I'm not a huge fan of the bacon. I like it occasionally with eggs, but beyond that not so much. I find that it overpowers whatever it is paired with. If I have a burger I want to taste the burger, not bacon. Can we replace the bacon option with something else?
K D Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 I'm not a huge fan of the bacon. I like it occasionally with eggs, but beyond that not so much. I find that it overpowers whatever it is paired with. If I have a burger I want to taste the burger, not bacon. Can we replace the bacon option with something else?
thebandit27 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 I'm not a huge fan of the bacon. I like it occasionally with eggs, but beyond that not so much. I find that it overpowers whatever it is paired with. If I have a burger I want to taste the burger, not bacon. Can we replace the bacon option with something else? If I were a mod I would ban you for an offense akin to blasphemy...twice. Might as well replace attractive females and sports while you're at it. And here I thought we were pals...
Orton's Arm Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 I don't understand your position of not buying into the hype. What hype are you referring to? Is this a SB caliber team? Of course not. Who is promoting that ideal notion? The organization surely isn't promoting that zany idea. You again lost me with your nebulous comments about the failure of this franchise's staff not building a foundation for a SB. What dos that mean? If the orgnization drafts well and finds their franchise qb then they can compete at a higher level and position themselves for a more serious SB run some day down the line. How else can it be done? Why do you insist that they are not only not doing that but that they are as they are currently functioning not planning on doing that? The Bills have been out of the playoffs for 14 consecutive years. Under Whaley they are steadily upgrading the roster. The drafts are better and the free agent acquisitions are very sound. The central issue for this franchise is over the qb issue. Is EJ the answer? You conclusively say no whle I suggest that we should be more patient on the qb issue and see how it plays out. What has me perplexed is that I don't know what more you want this front office to do that they haven't been doing over the last couple of years? You have to remember that this historically backwater franchise has for a very long time been been run in an erratic faashion by utter incompetents. You don't think that the Levy hiring as a GM was weird? The Dick Jauron hring wasn't very inspiring. And extending his contract was simply dispiriting. It seems to me under Whaley he has stabilized this very chaotic organization and made it into a normal franchise that hopefully in the near future will be a successful franchise. > If the orgnization drafts well and finds their franchise qb then they can compete at a higher level and position themselves for a more serious SB run some day down the line. Finding a franchise QB is easier said than done. Below is a list of AFC East teams, together with the number of franchise QBs they've had since the first Super Bowl. Buffalo: 1 (Jim Kelly) New England Patriots: 1.5 (Tom Brady, and the first half of Bledsoe's career) Miami: 2 New York Jets: 1 (Joe Namath) Every Super Bowl victory achieved by an AFC East team has been achieved with the help of a franchise QB. Nearly every Super Bowl appearance by an AFC East team involved a franchise QB also. Finding a franchise QB fundamentally changes the equation for your football team. Without a franchise QB, a GM has to try to be so strong at non-QB positions that he compensates for his team's weakness at QB. It's very difficult to hold a complete team together for any length of time. Some of your best players will leave in free agency, as Byrd just did. Or they'll get old and pass the peak of their usefulness. Complete teams typically don't stay complete for very long. > Is EJ the answer? You conclusively say no while I suggest that we should be more patient on the qb issue and see how it plays out. If Manuel were to become the second franchise QB in Bills' history, it would fundamentally change my analysis. Whether that will or won't happen has already been discussed elsewhere. My expectation is that he won't rise to that level; and that the front office will spend the next two to three years figuring that out. That means wasting two to three years of every current Bills' player's career--at least as far as Super Bowl opportunities go. By that point, guys like Kyle Williams and Mario Williams will be nearing the ends of their careers; and even a guy like Eric Wood will have much more of his career behind him than in front of him. > It seems to me under Whaley he has stabilized this very chaotic organization and made it into a normal franchise Much the same thing was said when TD took over the reins from Butler. Similar optimistic sentiments were voiced a year or so after Marv took over from TD. Or when Buddy Nix took over from Marv/Jauron. The common thread throughout all of these regimes is that they lacked a viable plan to achieve long-term success at quarterback. In the absence of such a plan, everything else they did proved ephemeral and ineffectual.
chris heff Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 First off, In regards to my last post in this thread, and Sammy Watkins. Don't get me wrong here as I genuinely like the kid, and hope he turns out to be another Julio Jones clone. The odds just show that first round wide receivers usually have a huge NFL learning curve to contend with just like any other position, and most don't become superstars their first season. Particularly when you also have a second year QB who is still learning the game himself. Case in point, even the mighty Calvin Johnson only had 48 receptions for 756 yards, 4 TD's his first season. Then you have OC Nathaniel Hackett, and when the Bills needed a brilliant tactician running the offense considering you have three rookie QB's on the roster. Instead the Bills had a hammer who chose to run the ball 70+% of the time mid guard, or up the middle. Actually, he was more like a jackhammer in the way he forced CJ Spiller to try and make plays between the tackles instead of getting him in space like his predecessor used to do. The Bills were the #2 team in the NFL in rushing yards, and the #1 team in attempts. Yet, that didn't win many games for them because the offense was trying to run a hurry up offense with rookie QB's, and that limited their ability to stay on the field. Last season the Bills were one of the very worst teams in the NFL in 3rd and out percentage because of that hurry up offense. It remains to be seen if this second year offensive coordinator can develop that first round pick at QB EJ into a top 15 QB, and to me that is the most important aspect of the upcoming season. I remain highly skeptical about this coaching staff considering all the mistakes they made their first season. Then you have Doug Whaley who has been masterful at helping to build a great defense by adding so many good players in that area of the team. The other side has been treated differently, as you have the offense, and the Bills making the decision to let their best pass blocker leave in free agency, and replacing him with utter garbage that was cut and released by week six during last year. Then the backup center who has graded poorly throughout his career was the replacement at LG, and he played up to his grading. This left the Bills precariously thin on the O line all season, and they were exceeding lucky to have not suffered any further serious injuries on that line last year. Then this off season free agency the Bills brought in another player who graded as the very worst player on his last team, and throughout his career. Paying 5.5 million for a player who wouldn't even make it as a backup on some of the better teams in the NFL. A very questionable move by Whaley considering the Bills are trying to develop three young QB's, and need the very best pass protection they can get. The one big addition to the line was a new RT drafted in the second round. Whaley finally adding some quality talent to a very suspect line. I still question the talent at the two OG positions. Whaley has made some mistake in his first year as an NFL GM, and history shows that bad teams usually don't evolve into good teams after so many mistakes. I see where the OP is coming from, and he just went way overboard in stating he wants the team to tank and go 0-16. No true Bills fan can't possibly want to see another team get the first overall pick because of their bad season. Like I said earlier I'm hoping that the Bills overcome some very questionable decisions made by this regime, and finish this season with at least a 9-7 record. Will they? The eternal optimistic Bills fan in me says HECK YEAH! The realist in me says no way, and the result is a new coaching staff / FO after ownership changes hands. I will always support change until this franchise starts to have winning seasons....or at least shows improvement in the W / L column So after almost two decades of this franchise being a mess, it should have been fixed in a year?
bowery4 Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Just so we're all clear here: history is 100% irrelevant as to how this front office staff goes about building their team. Yes, completely irrelevant. It does not matter at all what the team has done the last 14 seasons; build the team the way you believe it should be built. Only frightened fans care about what previous regimes did. It does not matter at all whether or not another team would've made the Watkins trade; if he's the best offensive player in the draft, and that's what you're after, go get him and let his play on Sundays prove you right. You think the Seahawks cared at all that every other team laughed at the Bruce Irvin pick 3 seasons ago? Think they care now? Anyone think they cared what people thought when they traded 1st, 4th, and 7th round picks for a WR whose career stat line is strikingly similar to Stevie Johnson, and then said WR failed his physical and missed the entire regular season? Think they care now? Guys, this stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, I know, 14 years, bean counters, blah blah blah; it's all rubbish. If you're scared, get a dog. If you're a Bills' fan, suck it up and watch. /rant over Edit: sorry, one more thing...we've devolved into using ESPN's fantasy rankings to evaluate the Watkins trade now? Man, I need to take my kids outside. What does matter? Hey, I'm just impressed that Edwards' Arm was able to denigrate EJ Manuel without citing YPA and using the term "mental bandwidth" in order to do so. GO BILLS!!! Funny stuff!
thewildrabbit Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 So after almost two decades of this franchise being a mess, it should have been fixed in a year? Where exactly did I say that it should have been fixed in a year? Feel free to bold that part in a quote.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Would you not consider Jack Kemp or Joe Ferguson franchise QB's?
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