RuntheDamnBall Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Exactly. I don't believe Spiller is unstoppable, he isn't. But he is a dynamic player. His inconsistency is troubling and frustrating. However, Hackett's play calling was also frustrating. How many times did we see the "read option" called last year? And how many times did it result in handing the ball off to Spiller to have him run up the middle? Far too many times. The defense constantly stacked the box. They knew Manuel wasn't going to keep the ball and run with it. Spiller is not a bruising, short-yardage back. What made Marrone & Hackett ever think he was? I'm not giving up on Spiller. I still think he can be a very dangerous player for us. I just hope that Hackett has learned from his mistakes as well. In other words, Hackett needs to put him in a position to succeed. You're spot-on here.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 If you want to know the difference between CJ and the top 15 RB's in the league, look no further than the first down stat. The top ten are McCoy, Forte, Charles, Lynch, Lacy, AP, Morris, Gore, Murray and woah? Fred Jackson coming in hot at #10. Where's Spiller? Oh he's back at #45, getting beat out by Terelle Pryor, Steven Jackson, Danny Woodhead. And he's two first downs in front of those other fantastic RB's, like RG3, Andrew Luck, Alex Smith, Bobby Rainey? Fun fact, Spill's had either almost double, or almost triple the amount of attempts of anyone around him in this list, yet was right there in terms of FD conversions (except for Steven Jackson). Conclusion? Spiller sucks at keeping drives alive, perhaps the most important thing an RB can do besides score TD's. McCoy played 12 games that year, not 15. McCoy, with 12 games in 2012, doubled Spiller's FD stat in 15 games in 2013. On almost the same number of attempts. The players aren't even close. Bryce Brown in 2012, on 115 attempts, had more first downs than 2013 Spiller. Fred Jackson in 2012, on 115 attempts, had 1 less first down than 2013 Spiller. This is the one stat that exemplifies his weakness as a player. I don't think anyone is arguing Spiller is a short yardage back. That's Fred Jackson's job. How can having Fitz hurt Spiller, when his best year ever was with Fitz? Is Fitz the missing piece? As limited as Fitz is, right now, he's the best QB Spiller has ever played with. He was hurt last year. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Also, the playcalling and oline weren't as good. We didn't have good passing attack in Spiller's miracle year. That's a weak argument. First of all, I'm not following a "trend" here. I've been realistic when it comes to Spiller, even after his fantastic 2012, just check my posting history. I like CJ on this team as a #2 guy. Best case scenario, Freddy produces for a few years, CJ gets signed to a reasonable deal, and Bryce Brown becomes our #1 with CJ staying in his CJ role. Now, the only reason I'm "hating" on CJ is because for 2 years I've heard future Hall of Famer. I've heard Gayle references, Barry Sanders references, Walter Payton references. I've argued with them all. It's unrealistic and I disagree he will ever be that good after 5 years in the NFL. That's why I'm throwing stats up and making points. I'm arguing that CJ isn't a once in a generation back, even though everyone treats him like gold. Even you're doing it. "One of our best players?" For one good year in a 5 year career? As a top 10 pick? Playing the easiest position to transition to the Pro's? Dear Lord. Bryce Brown is somehow a more special rb than CJ? Brown averages a half yard less per carry for his career, plays on a far superior run blocking team, with a QB who was completely on fire last year. No rational human being on the planet would say Brown is a better rb than Spiller.
mrags Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I don't think anyone is arguing Spiller is a short yardage back. That's Fred Jackson's job. As limited as Fitz is, right now, he's the best QB Spiller has ever played with. He was hurt last year. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Also, the playcalling and oline weren't as good. Dear Lord. Bryce Brown is somehow a more special rb than CJ? Brown averages a half yard less per carry for his career, plays on a far superior run blocking team, with a QB who was completely on fire last year. No rational human being on the planet would say Brown is a better rb than Spiller. i think Brown will be a better RB than Spiller.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 i think Brown will be a better RB than Spiller. And I think you must have an irrational hatred of Spiller. All the best.
FireChan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) I don't think anyone is arguing Spiller is a short yardage back. That's Fred Jackson's job. As limited as Fitz is, right now, he's the best QB Spiller has ever played with. He was hurt last year. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Also, the playcalling and oline weren't as good. Dear Lord. Bryce Brown is somehow a more special rb than CJ? Brown averages a half yard less per carry for his career, plays on a far superior run blocking team, with a QB who was completely on fire last year. No rational human being on the planet would say Brown is a better rb than Spiller. So only "short yardage backs" are supposed to get first downs? Is AP short yardage? Is Jamaal Charles? Is Marshawn Lynch? So defenses didn't stack the box when Fitz was our QB? I thought that's all they did? No one said Bryce Brown is a better RB than Spiller. But I totally believe he will be. Brown averages a half yard less per carry for his career, plays on a far superior run blocking team, with a QB who was completely on fire last year. Brown didn't start last year. This is a ridiculous statement. Let's look at Bryce. 2012 season, started 4 games. 115 attempts, 564 yards. 4.9 YPC (more than 2013 Spiller) 4 TD's (double 2013 Spiller) 33 FD's (more than 2013 Spiller) 2013 season, started 0 games. 75 attempts, 314 yards. 4.2 YPC, 2 TD's (same as 2013 Spiller) 16 FD's (9 less than 2013 Spiller, 9 less first downs in a difference of 125 attempts!) Bryce may not have the "take it to the house" ability. But he has a helluva better shot of moving the chains, and replacing Fred Jackson than Spiller does. Spiller is a gadget, Bryce will be an RB. And Bryce is 23, not 26. Edited June 23, 2014 by FireChan
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 So only "short yardage backs" are supposed to get first downs? Is AP short yardage? Is Jamaal Charles? Is Marshawn Lynch? So defenses didn't stack the box when Fitz was our QB? I thought that's all they did? No one said Bryce Brown is a better RB than Spiller. But I totally believe he will be. He was 8th in first down % when HEATHLY in 2012. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-rushing-first-down-percentage/2012/ Honestly man, you really don't make sense to me. You want to run EJ out of town after his first year. Yet, you think Brown, who hasn't come close to Spiller, will be better? Who's QB play would you take last year? Philly or Buffalo? How about oline? Philly, with multiple pro bowlers, or the Bills? I'm game. More rushing yards. I got Spiller, you have Brown. What's the stakes?
What a Tuel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) We didn't have good passing attack in Spiller's miracle year. That's a weak argument. Miracle year? As someone else pointed out, Spiller has more than one good year. We had 8 more passing TDs and a few more yards. Imagine what Spiller would have done if Gailey would have utilized him correctly and defenses were sold on Fitzpatrick. His "miracle year" he was on par with the best RBs in the league. Bryce may not have the "take it to the house" ability. But he has a helluva better shot of moving the chains, and replacing Fred Jackson than Spiller does. Spiller is a gadget, Bryce will be an RB. And Bryce is 23, not 26. This may be more reasonable, CJ is definitely not a sole RB. All the more reason to attempt to extend CJ now, we have seen what he can do. Do you think we are a better team with Brown. Or Brown and Spiller? Edited June 23, 2014 by What a Tuel
Dan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 maybe I'm a bit overexagerrating when I say "he sucks". My words. Not yours. But at the end of the day he's a disappointment for a top 10 pick. And the fact is everyone swings from his jock like he's the next coming of Walter Payton. He's not. He's average in today's NFL.[\b] That's not saying a lot. ...2 coaches now can't seem to make this work on a regular basis. That's the problem. The whole team is average, starting with the coaches going right to the QB. Until we get a coaching staff that has a clue about how to call a game, game plan for specific opponents, and utilize the talent they have; and a QB that can perform at an NFL level... we'll see the same thing. All while we continue to run good players out of town, only to watch them play very well for other teams.
FireChan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) He was 8th in first down % when HEATHLY in 2012. http://www.sportingc...ercentage/2012/ Honestly man, you really don't make sense to me. You want to run EJ out of town after his first year. Yet, you think Brown, who hasn't come close to Spiller, will be better? Who's QB play would you take last year? Philly or Buffalo? How about oline? Philly, with multiple pro bowlers, or the Bills? I'm game. More rushing yards. I got Spiller, you have Brown. What's the stakes? Cordy Glenn? Eric Wood? God, I love it when fans say, "this roster has so much talent," and then turn around and throw that out the window to make excuses. "EJ needs more weapons, but SJ13 is awesome!" Philly has the 13th worst O-line in the league in 2012. I'm convinced you don't watch any football besides the Bills. I haven't run EJ out of anywhere. You need to step back, focus on one point, and argue it. Miracle year? As someone else pointed out, Spiller has more than one good year. We had 8 more passing TDs and a few more yards. Imagine what Spiller would have done if Gailey would have utilized him correctly and defenses were sold on Fitzpatrick. His "miracle year" he was on par with the best RBs in the league. This may be more reasonable, CJ is definitely not a sole RB. All the more reason to attempt to extend CJ now, we have seen what he can do. Do you think we are a better team with Brown. Or Brown and Spiller? In an earlier post, I gave my best-case scenario. Sign Spiller at a reasonable price. 2 years from now, Brown takes over Fred's role. Spiller stays where he is in the hierarchy. That would be a good running attack. Edited June 23, 2014 by FireChan
mrags Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 He was 8th in first down % when HEATHLY in 2012. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-rushing-first-down-percentage/2012/ Honestly man, you really don't make sense to me. You want to run EJ out of town after his first year. Yet, you think Brown, who hasn't come close to Spiller, will be better? Who's QB play would you take last year? Philly or Buffalo? How about oline? Philly, with multiple pro bowlers, or the Bills? I'm game. More rushing yards. I got Spiller, you have Brown. What's the stakes? your also arguing that based on the fact that Brown is listed as our 3rd RB and CJ the first. CJ will start the year and Brown will take over as #1 by week 8.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Cordy Glenn? Eric Wood? God, I love it when fans say, "this roster has so much talent," and then turn around and throw that out the window to make excuses. "EJ needs more weapons, but SJ13 is awesome!" Philly has the 13th worst O-line in the league in 2012. I'm convinced you don't watch any football besides the Bills. I haven't run EJ out of anywhere. You need to step back, focus on one point, and argue it. In an earlier post, I gave my best-case scenario. Sign Spiller at a reasonable price. 2 years from now, Brown takes over Fred's role. Spiller stays where he is in the hierarchy. That would be a good running attack. And I'm impressed that you can type with the way you constantly talk out of your butt. The Eagles had 2 1st team all pro offensive linemen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_All-Pro_Team People cry about Andy "freaking" Levitre and he hasn't he played in a pro bowl. No current Bills' olinemen has. The Eagles had 2 1st team all pros. I'm sure that helps as a rb. You're the type of fan who has a 2 second memory. That guy had a bad game. Replace him. I saw Brown have a good game once. He's going to be that Spiller. $50 and we can both put in it our sig for everyone to see - I say Spiller outrushes Brown in 2014, you say Brown will outrush Spiller. Deal?
FireChan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) And I'm impressed that you can type with the way you constantly talk out of your butt. The Eagles had 2 1st team all pro offensive linemen. http://en.wikipedia....13_All-Pro_Team People cry about Andy "freaking" Levitre and he hasn't he played in a pro bowl. No current Bills' olinemen has. The Eagles had 2 1st team all pros. I'm sure that helps as a rb. You're the type of fan who has a 2 second memory. That guy had a bad game. Replace him. I saw Brown have a good game once. He's going to be that Spiller. $50 and we can both put in it our sig for everyone to see - I say Spiller outrushes Brown in 2014, you say Brown will outrush Spiller. Deal? I would never take that bet. Not only is it completely illogical and unrelated to what I said, but Fred Jackson is still here. Freddy and Bryce isn't as good of a tandem as Freddy and CJ. First it was pro-bowl, now it's all-pro? Are we talking 2012 or 2013? What are you saying? I said 2012 (you know, when Bryce got some meaningful touches). You pull up a 2013 All-Pro list. How does that matter? Spiller had a bad game? I thought he had one good year and 4 mediocre ones. Edited June 23, 2014 by FireChan
What a Tuel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) In an earlier post, I gave my best-case scenario. Sign Spiller at a reasonable price. 2 years from now, Brown takes over Fred's role. Spiller stays where he is in the hierarchy. That would be a good running attack. Agreed. Also, I can't remember where in this thread I read it but someone said averaging 75 yards a game was crap. I just want to put that into perspective by saying: Jamaal Charles averages between 75 and 95 yards a game in his last 4 seasons. LeSean McCoy averages between 72 and 100 yards a game in his last 4 seasons. Last year being his "miracle" year. Adrian Peterson who is widely considered the best averages between 80 and 110 not including his beast 131 average per game (2097 yd) season in 2012. Guess that would be his miracle year Marshawn Lynch between 78 and 99 yards a game in the last three seasons. Averaging 150 yards a game like I think people imagine a good RB does, would put you in the 2400 rushing yards for a season. Just a little perspective for whoever said 75 yards a game is horrible especially for a rb tandem where you share carries. Edited June 23, 2014 by What a Tuel
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I would never take that bet. Not only is it completely illogical and unrelated to what I said, but Fred Jackson is still here. Freddy and Bryce isn't as good of a tandem as Freddy and CJ. First it was pro-bowl, now it's all-pro? Are we talking 2012 or 2013? What are you saying? Spiller had a bad game? I thought he had one good year and 4 mediocre ones. In post 77, you predicted that Brown would be our #1 rb. Also, you edited a post (backpedal) where you said Brown will be a better back than Spiller. your also arguing that based on the fact that Brown is listed as our 3rd RB and CJ the first. CJ will start the year and Brown will take over as #1 by week 8. No, I'm arguing on the fact that Spiller is a much better talent than Brown. It's why a guy gets drafted top 10, averages 5.1 ypc for his career, makes a pro bowl while another guy is drafted in the 7th round and traded for a 6th round pick. Talk is cheap. I'll give you the same deal FireChan is backpedaling from. More rushing yards, I got Spiller, you got Brown, $50. Deal?
Mr. WEO Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I understand the "cool" thing is for everyone to hate on CJ, which everyone does on and off the board. I disagree - I think he's one of our best players. I don't think CJ is the issue - if we had McCoy or Peterson, we'd still be in the same spot. At this point, what would you like the team to do? Let him go at year end? Ride 33 year old Fred Jackson for a couple more years? Draft another RB? This is ridiculous. These are the 2 best RBs in the league--hands down. CJ is a gamer, but not in league with these two. I would take either over CJ. Any sane fan would
FireChan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) In post 77, you predicted that Brown would be our #1 rb. Also, you edited a post (backpedal) where you said Brown will be a better back than Spiller. He will be a better back than Spiller. I haven't backpedaled You just don't know how to argue, you rely on snide comments and posts with no substance. Here;s what I said in post #77. I like CJ on this team as a #2 guy. Best case scenario, Freddy produces for a few years, CJ gets signed to a reasonable deal, and Bryce Brown becomes our #1 with CJ staying in his CJ role. Did you see what I said there? I said in a few years. I marked it as best as I could. You know what that means? It means not this year. Edited June 23, 2014 by FireChan
Maury Ballstein Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) We didn't have good passing attack in Spiller's miracle year. That's a weak argument. Huh ? A good passing game would open things up for Cj as opposed to getting all of the focus of the opponents defense no ? See Knowshon Moreno w Peyton. I'll leave this here....we have this same conversation every 3 months http://youtube.com/watch?v=QpLIDa2FdTA spiller time! apology threads coming in few months! Edited June 23, 2014 by Ryan L Billz
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 He will be a better back than Spiller. I haven't backpedaled You just don't know how to argue, you rely on snide comments and posts with no substance. Here;s what I said in post #77. I like CJ on this team as a #2 guy. Best case scenario, Freddy produces for a few years, CJ gets signed to a reasonable deal, and Bryce Brown becomes our #1 with CJ staying in his CJ role. Did you see what I said there? I said in a few years. I marked it as best as I could. You know what that means? It means not this year. I'm arguing with a crazy person. Enjoy your afternoon.
FireChan Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) I'm arguing with a crazy person. Enjoy your afternoon. Aw don't be like that. This is fun. You can just admit that you misread my post and attacked me instead of leaving. It happens to the best of us. Huh ? A good passing game would open things up for Cj as opposed to getting all of the focus of the opponents defense no ? See Knowshon Moreno w Peyton. Oh, of course it would. But that person was saying it was the reason he couldn't produce last year. Which wasn't true in 2012. Edited June 23, 2014 by FireChan
What a Tuel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Aw don't be like that. This is fun. You can just admit that you misread my post and attacked me instead of leaving. It happens to the best of us. Oh, of course it would. But that person was saying it was the reason he couldn't produce last year. Which wasn't true in 2012. That isn't what I said. The reason Spiller wasn't producing last year was because he was playing on one leg. I imagine he would have had similar stats this year if not for his injury. But that is all speculation. A better passing game wouldn't have hurt. How would a better passing game help this year but not last year? Edited June 23, 2014 by What a Tuel
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