YoloinOhio Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) ill say this, Spiller showed me all i needed to see when he ran out of bounds on one of his usual sideways runs for a loss of 3, stopping the clock in a game we had a minute or 2 left in. He was always frustrating with his inability to pick the hole but that was just dumb. He moved to #2 on my dumbest bills list, right behind mckelvin. i hope hes gone in 2015 unless he is used soley as a 3rd down back but hed cost too much. Because you said this I had to look up his Wonderlic score. 10. McKelvin got a 13. Edited June 26, 2014 by YoloinOhio
3rdand12 Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 ill say this, Spiller showed me all i needed to see when he ran out of bounds on one of his usual sideways runs for a loss of 3, stopping the clock in a game we had a minute or 2 left in. He was always frustrating with his inability to pick the hole but that was just dumb. He moved to #2 on my dumbest bills list, right behind mckelvin. i hope hes gone in 2015 unless he is used soley as a 3rd down back but hed cost too much. Then how do you explain McKelvins nearly fantastic year . That dumb ass played like he knew what he was doing ! He also was the best CB on the team last season . The dumbest one is Dareus. Obviously. Spiller is a limited edition who needs a fantastic coordinator and some O line to work it out. His biggest issue is vision and confidence at the point of attack . He does not decide and then commit well. That can be coached . Here is what i see . Bryce Brown is Spillers replacement and Dixon is Freds. Both starters know this . I hope Fred retires gracefully and CJ picks up his game quite a bit this year ( Nate !! ). But i have no problem whatsoever with Marrone going with his best horses. I mentioned before that its a good problem to have for the Bills , but this should be a FUN problem to have for us fans . I think some folks here have taken beyond what should be a pretty good get together over all the potential at hand. I mean Frank Summers is still in the mix and i just watched video of him. Love the Tank ! Go Bills. every one of em . as annoying as they can be sometimes. Dont think i did not throw my pretzels at the TV when he danced behind legursky . and they prolly had mustard on them. Dammit CJ SPILLER I SPILLED MY BEER AGAIN
mrags Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 His seasons where he has started he is 1-1 if you want to bring it down to that level. Most people would be happy if he returned to his 2012 form. He seems to have a 50-50 shot at doing that. Are you saying you wouldn't be happy if he did? He was phenomenal that season. And before you bring up the stats remember, stats don't reflect the actual game Could they have possibly went after Brown because Jackson is 33? Are you saying we are going to go back to a single workhorse rb with Brown? If so then I would be interested to know what you see in Brown that you are putting so much faith in him Oh and if you were wondering why people are always so hostile towards you, its because of this. You didn't have to blatantly say it for people to get the vibe that you are just hoping/wishing for players you dislike to fail so that you can say you are right. Because if you are wrong, the player is not overrated, and you are "wanting them to fail" so that you can be right. Which is downright sad for a Bills fan to be doing. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/168625-decide-mrags-fate-on-tbd/#entry3164890
enlightener Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Then how do you explain McKelvins nearly fantastic year . hey hey i like mckelvin too hes a great cb, but there are great plumbers and great ditch diggers too. Im still remembering his fumble vs new england and how after he said hed "do it over again" if CJ got a wonderlic 10 and mckelvin a 13 that explains alot. I wonder if they play chess together....and just sit down in front of the board.... staring at it...never moving. Edited June 26, 2014 by enlightener
3rdand12 Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) In 2013 7 RB's beat or were near that total in rushing yards alone. 22 players were over 1,300 yards combined from scrimmage. Here is an interesting look at RB "value" (my word, not theirs) from Football Outsiders. I'm glad that you know this. My assumption was that he was brought in as insurance to both. Exactly and plus one. Because Bryce has quite a potential for producing more than his history speaks imo. And Dixon should be sturdy plus a little nifty .I am pretty cool with these two hey hey i like mckelvin too hes a great cb, but there are great plumbers and great ditch diggers too. Im still remembering his fumble vs new england and how after he said hed "do it over again" if CJ got a 10 and mckelvin a 13 that explains alot. I wonder if they play chess together....and just sit down in front of the board and stare at eachother....not moving. Even less than intelligent people move chess pieces around and not just stare. I am living proof .I do understand that his body of work makes last season look like an anomaly and perhaps it was . But last year was pretty impessive to watch him. Maybe it was Henderson , maybe it was Pettines game. Cj could find a niche and be very productive. If healthy. Thats a fair point made Edited June 27, 2014 by 3rdand12
PO'14 Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 ill say this, Spiller showed me all i needed to see when he ran out of bounds on one of his usual sideways runs for a loss of 3, stopping the clock in a game we had a minute or 2 left in. He was always frustrating with his inability to pick the hole but that was just dumb. He moved to #2 on my dumbest bills list, right behind mckelvin. i hope hes gone in 2015 unless he is used soley as a 3rd down back but hed cost too much. So I wasnt the only one to notice this? Ive mentioned it 2 times prior to your comment and no one has responded. Glad to see someone else seeing that he is one dumb idiot on the field!
mrags Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) So I wasnt the only one to notice this? Ive mentioned it 2 times prior to your comment and no one has responded. Glad to see someone else seeing that he is one dumb idiot on the field! you have both gained quite a bit of respect from me today. Edited June 27, 2014 by mrags
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 You know, funny that we heard rumors this off-season that Chip Kelly, who already has Shady McCoy in his stable, was interested in trading for Spiller. It's almost as though coaches who know what they are doing on offense can see his value on that side of the ball.
K-9 Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 You know, funny that we heard rumors this off-season that Chip Kelly, who already has Shady McCoy in his stable, was interested in trading for Spiller. It's almost as though coaches who know what they are doing on offense can see his value on that side of the ball. He's much more effective out of a spread formation, as is any back with that kind of speed, quickness, and elusiveness. Easy to see why Kelly would want him. I'm not sure we have the OLine to run spread formations much of the time. We sure didn't last year, anyway. GO BILLS!!!
Dibs Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) He's much more effective out of a spread formation, as is any back with that kind of speed, quickness, and elusiveness. Easy to see why Kelly would want him. I'm not sure we have the OLine to run spread formations much of the time. We sure didn't last year, anyway. GO BILLS!!! The stats look to back you up on that theory.......and I believe I recall Marrone(&/or Hackett....or some analysts?) commenting in the off-season the Bills lack of athleticism on the OL hindered the play calling last season. Here are the stats for CJ & FJ for the last 2 seasons by WR number: CJ: 2012 / 2013 2 WRs: 60-328(5.5 ave) / 128-542(4.2 ave) 3 WRs: 101-693 (6.9 ave) / 63-337 (5.3 ave) 4+ WRs: 17-103 (6.1 ave) / 7-37 (5.3 ave) FJ: 2012 / 2013 2 WRs: 34-140(4.1 ave) / 93-424(4.6 ave) 3 WRs: 49-204 (4.2 ave) / 91-432 (4.7 ave) 4+ WRs: 16-64 (4.0 ave) / 5-10 (2.0 ave) From those numbers one can see that CJ's average ypc dramatically increased in both years from a 2WR formation to a 3WR formation......while the less speedy/elusive FJ's numbers remained similar in both categories. One can also see that 2012 saw a far higher percentage of 3WR formations than 2013. I personally think that rookie QB(and rookie WRs) & athleticism of OL was the cause for this......we shall find out this season if that was the case. Edited June 27, 2014 by Dibs
FireChan Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 The stats look to back you up on that theory.......and I believe I recall Marrone(&/or Hackett....or some analysts?) commenting in the off-season the Bills lack of athleticism on the OL hindered the play calling last season. Here are the stats for CJ & FJ for the last 2 seasons by WR number: CJ: 2012 / 2013 2 WRs: 60-328(5.5 ave) / 128-542(4.2 ave) 3 WRs: 101-693 (6.9 ave) / 63-337 (5.3 ave) 4+ WRs: 17-103 (6.1 ave) / 7-37 (5.3 ave) FJ: 2012 / 2013 2 WRs: 34-140(4.1 ave) / 93-424(4.6 ave) 3 WRs: 49-204 (4.2 ave) / 91-432 (4.7 ave) 4+ WRs: 16-64 (4.0 ave) / 5-10 (2.0 ave) From those numbers one can see that CJ's average ypc dramatically increased in both years from a 2WR formation to a 3WR formation......while the less speedy/elusive FJ's numbers remained similar in both categories. One can also see that 2012 saw a far higher percentage of 3WR formations than 2013. I personally think that rookie QB(and rookie WRs) & athleticism of OL was the cause for this......we shall find out this season if that was the case. We can also see that CJ's YPC went down significantly. Not trying to hijack your post, because if I do know anything about CJ is that the kid is way better in the spread. He's much more effective out of a spread formation, as is any back with that kind of speed, quickness, and elusiveness. Easy to see why Kelly would want him. I'm not sure we have the OLine to run spread formations much of the time. We sure didn't last year, anyway. GO BILLS!!! Has Spiller lived up to his draft pick? So you a pushing for a guy to start (Bryce Brown) that couldn't push LeSean Mccoy out of the starting position? He must be horrible. Not every year, but I believe the potential is there. Time for my question - Are the Bills better with Spiller? The Bills, as it stands now, are better with Spiller. Of course they are. If Freddy retires and Spiller is our #1, then we aren't. If Spiller wants $6 million a season, then we aren't.
Dibs Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 ..... Has Spiller lived up to his draft pick? ..... That question relates solely to assessing management and has nothing to do with Spiller as a player.
YoloinOhio Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) That question relates solely to assessing management and has nothing to do with Spiller as a player. Completely agree. I don't obsess about where someone was drafted to determine whether the player was valuable. You take what you want when you can get him in order to build the team you are trying to build and fit the system you are trying to run. When the system changes and the FO changes and the plan changes, then you need to fit the players you have into the new plan. Some stay, some go. Edited June 27, 2014 by YoloinOhio
CountryCletus Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 I don't see how you can look at the final numbers and yes yes or no- player X is good or he isn't... CJ has been used lightly and in the eyes of many, incorrectly for most of his career. His season high in carries is 207, was 202 last year- you know, 80-100 less than most other starting RB's... His first two seasons he averaged 5.3 and 6.7 rushes per game... Wow, no wonder he didn't have monster rushing numbers!! His yards per carry have been: 2013: 4.6 2012: 6.0 2011: 5.2 Not the mark of a bum! Use him right, and he will flourish... He does need to make improvement hitting up in the inside runs, but he's shown the ability to do that in 2012
Dibs Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) ..... .....His season high in carries is 207, was 202 last year- you know, 80-100 less than most other starting RB's... ..... Just on this point above..... There is a common misconception as to how many carries a typical starting RB has. Last year there were only 2 above 300 carries(314 & 301), 5 above 280 carries(17.5/game), 10 above 250 carries(15.6/game) and 15 above 220 carries(13.75/game). The days of the 25 carries per game(400 carries) RB might be gone(at least for the foreseeable future) as more teams have become less reliant on a single workhorse RB and are spreading the load. Marrying in to other aspects covered in this thread, this is also a likely reason as to why RBs are commanding lower contracts and being drafted later in the draft. Edited June 27, 2014 by Dibs
mrags Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 I don't see how you can look at the final numbers and yes yes or no- player X is good or he isn't... CJ has been used lightly and in the eyes of many, incorrectly for most of his career. His season high in carries is 207, was 202 last year- you know, 80-100 less than most other starting RB's... His first two seasons he averaged 5.3 and 6.7 rushes per game... Wow, no wonder he didn't have monster rushing numbers!! His yards per carry have been: 2013: 4.6 2012: 6.0 2011: 5.2 Not the mark of a bum! Use him right, and he will flourish... He does need to make improvement hitting up in the inside runs, but he's shown the ability to do that in 2012 hes shown the ability to be be injured every season. He's showed the inconsistency to not deserve more carries.
Dibs Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 hes shown the ability to be be injured every season. He's showed the inconsistency to not deserve more carries. The inconsistency issue is legitimate IMO. He may show more consistency in the right situation(fingers crossed for future seasons).....but maybe not. The injury comment is a bit unrealistic. FJ has had injuries which has hampered his performance every year for the last 5 years. McCoy injured 3 of the last 4 seasons. Forte, Charles, Peterson.....all regularly injured. It seems there are very few RBs who survive an NFL season without having either games missed or performance hindered due to injury.
mrags Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 The inconsistency issue is legitimate IMO. He may show more consistency in the right situation(fingers crossed for future seasons).....but maybe not. The injury comment is a bit unrealistic. FJ has had injuries which has hampered his performance every year for the last 5 years. McCoy injured 3 of the last 4 seasons. Forte, Charles, Peterson.....all regularly injured. It seems there are very few RBs who survive an NFL season without having either games missed or performance hindered due to injury. im not comparing his injuries with other players. The fact is true that others get injured and miss games. However CJ seems to be injured and plays. It's the fans here that use those injuries as an excuse. They shouldn't be. Regardless if those other RBs get injured just as much, they produce more. That's what this argument is about.
Dibs Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 im not comparing his injuries with other players. The fact is true that others get injured and miss games. However CJ seems to be injured and plays. It's the fans here that use those injuries as an excuse. They shouldn't be. Regardless if those other RBs get injured just as much, they produce more. That's what this argument is about. But you just used the injury issue as a rebuttal. If the argument is about production, then considering that most RBs are regularly hampered by injuries, raising the injury issue is irrelevant. I do agree with your point about other posters raising the injury issue as an excuse, as all RBs suffer the injury factor. Neither side should logically be claiming the injury factor as a reason why Spiller is/isn't worth having on the team.
mrags Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 But you just used the injury issue as a rebuttal. If the argument is about production, then considering that most RBs are regularly hampered by injuries, raising the injury issue is irrelevant. I do agree with your point about other posters raising the injury issue as an excuse, as all RBs suffer the injury factor. Neither side should logically be claiming the injury factor as a reason why Spiller is/isn't worth having on the team. i being up the injuries because it's clearly obvious that the CJ backers use that as an excuse as to why he doesn't produce more. "Given the opportunities, given the right supporting cast, barring any injury, CJ would be a monster" you hear this kind of crap all the time. Leading rushers in the league suffer the same issues but consistently lead the lead in yards and TDs. They also move the chains on consistent basis'.
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