Mr. WEO Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Esmonde makes the case for all the small thinkers in life. it takes someone with VISION to build things. someone like Terry & Kim PEGULA SABRES = First Niagara Center = HARORCENTER = facilities used by college and amateur teams in addition to Pro Sports. BILLS = New Waterfront Stadium & Convention Center = ONE SENECA TOWER = facilities used by business, college, high schools and amateur sports. Then let the "big thinker" spend his money to buy the things he wants, instead of foisting it on the taxpayers. This post makes no sense.
BillnutinHouston Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) And again, the PSLs go to the owner. You're speaking pretty generally there but it seems that it may vary depending on the specific location. This is from the Vikings' new stadium website, in a FAQ section on their "Stadium Builder's Licenses": How is the project being financed? Of the project’s $975 million upfront capital costs, $477 million, or 49% of the stadium cost, will be paid by private funds made up of a combination of Vikings private financing and equity and the MSFA’s sale of Stadium Builder’s Licenses (SBLs). The Vikings private financing and equity includes certain NFL financing in the form of a loan repaid by stadium revenues. The Stadium Builder’s Licenses program was authorized by the Minnesota legislature in the 2012 stadium legislation (for more on SBLs, click here). The remaining $498 million public contribution will be split between the City of Minneapolis ($150 million) and the State of Minnesota ($348 million). The State has issued appropriation bonds in an approximate amount of $462 million and will finance the remainder of the $498 million public contribution with available State funds. The stadium legislation provides that the City’s $150 million contribution will be advanced to the MSFA through the issuance of the appropriation bonds and will be repaid by the City to the State by redirecting a portion of the current “Convention Center Taxes.” The remaining amount of the appropriation bonds will be repaid to the bondholders from other sources available to the state, including the modernization of state-authorized charitable gaming that includes electronic pull-tabs and bingo and a one-time inventory tax on cigarettes, which raised approximately $36 million. What is a Stadium Builder’s License? A Stadium Builder’s License (SBL) is a one-time contribution that grants Season Ticket Members the right to control their seats for a defined term as long as they continue to purchase Vikings season tickets. SBLs are used to help finance construction of new stadiums; programs have been used as a finance tool for half of all stadium projects in the NFL. Why are SBLs used? SBLs are used to help finance construction of new stadiums; programs have been used as a finance tool for half of all stadium projects in the NFL. The economics of new stadium construction require a partnership between the state and local governments, the team and the fans. This new stadium cannot be accomplished without the support of fans, and in previous SBL programs around the country, fans have had a positive experience with SBLs. EDIT: Where does the money from SBLs go? All net proceeds from SBL programs are directed toward construction costs of the new stadium and stadium infrastructure. How many NFL stadiums have used SBLs? Prior to this project, 16 stadiums that serve as the homes for 17 NFL teams have used SBL programs as a project finance tool. Most recently, new stadiums for the Cowboys, 49ers, Jets and Giants were significantly funded by SBL programs. These stadiums have SBL prices that are more than three-four times higher than the program being discussed in this market. For a market comparison, click here. Edited June 24, 2014 by BillnutinHouston
bbb Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Esmonde makes the case for all the small thinkers in life. it takes someone with VISION to build things. someone like Terry & Kim PEGULA SABRES = First Niagara Center = HARORCENTER = facilities used by college and amateur teams in addition to Pro Sports. BILLS = New Waterfront Stadium & Convention Center = ONE SENECA TOWER = facilities used by business, college, high schools and amateur sports. He seems to be tying it in with the Bass Pro fiasco. That certainly does look like a case where we were better off without the Magic Bullet. But, this whole thing comes down to keeping the Bills. It's a different story. I think you've said this about One Seneca before - are you saying they should tear it down?
PromoTheRobot Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) He seems to be tying it in with the Bass Pro fiasco. That certainly does look like a case where we were better off without the Magic Bullet. But, this whole thing comes down to keeping the Bills. It's a different story. I think you've said this about One Seneca before - are you saying they should tear it down? Bass Pro was a fiasco of leadership as much as anything. It should have been obvious that was going nowhere years ago. Funny how a little course correction and Canalside is rocking. Edited June 24, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Hplarrm Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Bass Pro was a fiasco of leadership as much as anything. It should have been obvious that was going nowhere years ago. Funny how a little course correction and Canalside is rocking. As far as Bass Pro and stupid proposals like the Peace Bridge Expansion (a great idea if you are an out of town Peace Bridge Bond holder but a bad idea for the WNY community) the fiasco would have been if these projects were done with huge subsidies being paid by WNY taxpayers for limited economic development payoff and large logistical negatives. A new downtown Bills stadium from a WNY taxpayer perspective should be built if: 1. A stadium is built as part of a realistic plan not to simply create ongoing activity for 8 home games and 2 pre-season games but as part of a larger complex with virtually daily activity. A tough nut but possible. 2. The costs need to be substantially borne not simply by WNY tapayers but with a subsidy NYS such that though there is probably not sufficient ROI to justify investment by WNY taxpayers, the actual investment is made by the much larger population of NYC and the profit center of Wall St. the actual investment by WNY taxpayers is diluted but the the returns mostly come to WNYers. 3. A larger plan is launched by WNY community leaders and elected officials which highlights the fact that though the economic fates of WNYers in the city, the suburbs and rural areas are totally interlinked, there is far too little we share in common besides the Bills. Community leaders need to use the fact of the Bills being here to emphasize an economic development strategy which promotes sharing of natural resources we own together (Niagara Falls, Zoar Valley, waterfront access, Niagara Rr. wind as relatively cheaper energy producer along with the already built hydro power) to push a new approach to economic development.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) As far as Bass Pro and stupid proposals like the Peace Bridge Expansion (a great idea if you are an out of town Peace Bridge Bond holder but a bad idea for the WNY community) the fiasco would have been if these projects were done with huge subsidies being paid by WNY taxpayers for limited economic development payoff and large logistical negatives. A new downtown Bills stadium from a WNY taxpayer perspective should be built if: 1. A stadium is built as part of a realistic plan not to simply create ongoing activity for 8 home games and 2 pre-season games but as part of a larger complex with virtually daily activity. A tough nut but possible. 2. The costs need to be substantially borne not simply by WNY tapayers but with a subsidy NYS such that though there is probably not sufficient ROI to justify investment by WNY taxpayers, the actual investment is made by the much larger population of NYC and the profit center of Wall St. the actual investment by WNY taxpayers is diluted but the the returns mostly come to WNYers. 3. A larger plan is launched by WNY community leaders and elected officials which highlights the fact that though the economic fates of WNYers in the city, the suburbs and rural areas are totally interlinked, there is far too little we share in common besides the Bills. Community leaders need to use the fact of the Bills being here to emphasize an economic development strategy which promotes sharing of natural resources we own together (Niagara Falls, Zoar Valley, waterfront access, Niagara Rr. wind as relatively cheaper energy producer along with the already built hydro power) to push a new approach to economic development. A big question is how much value does being part of NFL bring to Buffalo? I think it does bring substantial value, especially in light of current and future redevelopment. But Buffalo has to do more to stay in that exclusive club than other richer cities. I don't think it's unreasonable for taxpayers to bear a small percentage of the cost of building a stadium, say 20%. Edited June 24, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Mr. WEO Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 You're speaking pretty generally there but it seems that it may vary depending on the specific location. This is from the Vikings' new stadium website, in a FAQ section on their "Stadium Builder's Licenses": From Deadspin: "But stadiums will forever get public funding, because the politicians who get to trumpet that they kept the team in town rarely stick around long enough when the bill comes due. Fourteen years after Cincinnati agreed to fund the Bengals' stadium, and 10 years after it opened, Hamilton County was still putting 16 percent of its annual budget toward paying off Paul Brown Stadium. So it will be with the Vikings' sweetheart deal, which is set up for the team to profit in every conceivable manner. They will take all the revenues from selling naming rights. Three-quarters of the seats in the new stadium will require the purchase of personal seat licenses, at an average cost of $2,500. The PSLs alone are expected to account for at least $100 million of the Wilfs' share of construction costs. Gov. Mark Dayton has aggressively and repeatedly pitched the project as "the People's Stadium." He's right—the people of Minnesota will be paying for it for a long while." A big question is how much value does being part of NFL bring to Buffalo? I think it does bring substantial value, especially in light of current and future redevelopment. But Buffalo has to do more to stay in that exclusive club than other richer cities. I don't think it's unreasonable for taxpayers to bear a small percentage of the cost of building a stadium, say 20%. There is no reason to believe that the future of the redevelopment of Buffalo depends on a brand new NFL stadium. Nearly all studies show that such a building does NOT "bring substantial value". If the new stadium is such a valuable asset, an intellignet billionaire will build one with his own funds.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Not from a stadium but from having major league sports in WNY. There is no reason to believe that the future of the redevelopment of Buffalo depends on a brand new NFL stadium. Nearly all studies show that such a building does NOT "bring substantial value". If the new stadium is such a valuable asset, an intelligent billionaire will build one with his own funds. You mean like TP and Harborcenter?
thebandit27 Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 It's worth noting in this discussion that the NFL's G-4 Program that provides loan money for stadium construction work does not allow for loans associated with change in a team's home territory. It's yet another mechanism that makes a new stadium in WNY more economically feasible than a new stadium elsewhere, what with as much as $200M available in low-interest loan money that can be paid back with money that would otherwise be contributed to shared revenue.
Mr. WEO Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Not from a stadium but from having major league sports in WNY. You mean like TP and Harborcenter? Well, not quite like that. If Pegula is the next owner, he can build a real stadium for the Bills. If the Bills loaded up the moving vans and left tonight, all of the planned development downtown would continue exactly as it is now. To believe otherwise makes no sense.
Hplarrm Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Why would Peace Bridge expansion be bad for WNYers? It all goes back to that ol bugaboo ROI- Return on Investment. Often folks talking about this fail to take into account the reality is who pays the investment and who gets the return. In the case of WNY I look at this from my perspective which is one of a WNY taxpayer. My own investment is actually relatively small as taxpayer investment is really spread pretty widely. Unfortunately the return does not come to me at all unless the Peace Bridge Authority sells bonds which I buy on the open market. The trolls at the Peace Bridge collect tolls to make money and pay the bondholders who they have borrowed money from. There are other more indirect costs (and potentially benefits to the area) from the activity at the Peace Bridge, but from the studies I have seen this almost all costs for the WNY area and very little benefit (unless you sell truck fuel, Slim Jims or porn near the bridge. The big negative which the powers that be often seem to try to ignore are the air pollution and health impacts for people living near the bridge. A UB Prof. Jamie Mukasa has done a lot of work looking at the health impacts on the breathing ofWNYers. His research pretty clearly shows heightened levels of lung cancer and also respiratory problems for folks living in concentric circles around the bridge. The closer you live to the bridge, the higher your rate of respiratory problems with a pretty straightline correlation between health problems an distance from the bridge (while I would not expect to win in court against a lawyer the PBA can easily afford because legally there is a difference between causation and correlation, it can be quite reasonable to make judgements based on "mere" correlation even if I would not make a court decision based on it). Of great interest to me was the experiment which that a hole bin Laden pulled on us on 9/11. We knew a lot about truck traffic on the bridge because there were tolls and money involved. We also knew a lot about respiratory health issues (in the aggregate due to HIPPA laws which block individual info. At any rate, we knew a lot about levels of truck traffic on 9/10 and we knew a lot about insurance payments for respiratory problems. On 9/11 horrible things happen. On 9/12 we close the bridge. Incredibly quickly (even more quickly than I would have guessed and I pay attention to this stuff) we saw truck traffic drop to near zero and we also saw reports of respiratory problems drop to near zero with that same concentric circle pattern of complaints vis a vis your home and the bridge. As bridge traffic crept up over time, we saw the respiratory reports also creep up in conjunction with the level of truck traffic. There are real and substantial costs associated with living near the Peace Bridge. The ROI calculation is completed by looking at the return generated by the bridge. The direct return does not really go to WNY, it goes to whomever the PBA is paying the tolls it collects to (primarily directly to bond holders and also to the general guvmints. The big rip-off here is the stupid tale elected officials (who collect tons of campaign dollars from the bondholders) try to sell that increased truck traffic benefits the local economy. Nope. When you are shipping something there are 2 things you care about. A. The place it is manufactured and B. the place it is sold. You want to manufacture at as low a cost as you can and you want to sell at a high a price as you can. All points in between you want them to be speed bumps as well really not slowing you down from where you manufacture them to the point you sell them. WNY is a necessary choke point in this journey because you have to cross the river somewhere. Howevver, the trucks have no desire to stop here and leave money here. They make their living driving from point A to point Z. The Peace Bridge ironically is changing as a root for transporting goods anyway. A peak was probably hit in the early part of the millineum but from what I see the manufacture and shipping models are really changing and the Peace Bridge model though it will always be a chokepoint is becoming outmoded as an economic generation tool. Even those bystanders like the Buffalo News that whined a lot about building a new bridge that was a "signature of the area are starting to realize that Frederick Law Olmstead argued for placing Front Park where it is because of its signature view of the natural area. Smart economic development strategies are not those which build more stuff to block human views of this signature location, the deal should be to attract more people to want to live or visit the waterfront and then build an economy around selling stuff to these people. Instead an expanded Peace Bridge merely leaves nothing but air pollution for WNYers while bondholders wwho live out of WNYer collect nickels from trucks driving through the area.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Well, not quite like that. If Pegula is the next owner, he can build a real stadium for the Bills. If the Bills loaded up the moving vans and left tonight, all of the planned development downtown would continue exactly as it is now. To believe otherwise makes no sense. Future development. A stadium in the vicinity of Canalside/Harborcenter would add to the momentum. But you're right, if the Bills left it would make all that TP development that much more important. All that expendable income that went to the Bills would be freed up for the Sabres alone. But with the new growth the city is experiencing losing the Bills would be a black eye.
GG Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Not from a stadium but from having major league sports in WNY. You mean like TP and Harborcenter? Are you comparing a $200 million multi-use commercial real estate project with a multi-billion dollar single use stadium?
l< j Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Details on the league's G-4 loan program: http://newstadium.atlantafalcons.com/funding/g-4-stadium-financing/ Did the Bills tap that program for the current renovations? I don't think that is the case. 15 year payback from the league's (shared revenue) share of the gate. kj
Big Turk Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) FWIW, I spoke with a fellow involved with the stadium process over the weekend... It is absolutely, most certainly feasible with even a small contribution from ownership and relatively I expensive PSLs. Esmonde is simply incorrect about the "truth"...so far exactly zero people have provided any financial analysis supporting the idea that a new stadium is not economically feasible. Of course its feasible---people can pay huge money for Sabres season tickets but cant pay what still will be way less for Bills seasons even with a new stadium?? People will find a way to pay for what they want. Maybe they go out to eat once or twice a month less..maybe they cut back on their premium TV channels, etc but they will figure out a way to pay the extra money...people are acting like its going to be a $5,000 a year increase in the ticket price when it will likely be $500-$1000 or less... Edited June 24, 2014 by matter2003
thebandit27 Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Of course its feasible---people can pay huge money for Sabres season tickets but cant pay what still will be way less for Bills seasons even with a new stadium?? People will find a way to pay for what they want. Maybe they go out to eat once or twice a month less..maybe they cut back on their premium TV channels, etc but they will figure out a way to pay the extra money...people are acting like its going to be a $5,000 a year increase in the ticket price when it will likely be $500-$1000 or less... You're preaching to the choir my friend
PromoTheRobot Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Are you comparing a $200 million multi-use commercial real estate project with a multi-billion dollar single use stadium? He's paying for it, ain't he? Give him a chance. El Pegual is just getting warmed up. VIVA, EL PEGUAL!
bbb Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 It all goes back to that ol bugaboo ROI- Return on Investment. Often folks talking about this fail to take into account the reality is who pays the investment and who gets the return. In the case of WNY I look at this from my perspective which is one of a WNY taxpayer. My own investment is actually relatively small as taxpayer investment is really spread pretty widely. Unfortunately the return does not come to me at all unless the Peace Bridge Authority sells bonds which I buy on the open market. The trolls at the Peace Bridge collect tolls to make money and pay the bondholders who they have borrowed money from. There are other more indirect costs (and potentially benefits to the area) from the activity at the Peace Bridge, but from the studies I have seen this almost all costs for the WNY area and very little benefit (unless you sell truck fuel, Slim Jims or porn near the bridge. The big negative which the powers that be often seem to try to ignore are the air pollution and health impacts for people living near the bridge. A UB Prof. Jamie Mukasa has done a lot of work looking at the health impacts on the breathing ofWNYers. His research pretty clearly shows heightened levels of lung cancer and also respiratory problems for folks living in concentric circles around the bridge. The closer you live to the bridge, the higher your rate of respiratory problems with a pretty straightline correlation between health problems an distance from the bridge (while I would not expect to win in court against a lawyer the PBA can easily afford because legally there is a difference between causation and correlation, it can be quite reasonable to make judgements based on "mere" correlation even if I would not make a court decision based on it). Of great interest to me was the experiment which that a hole bin Laden pulled on us on 9/11. We knew a lot about truck traffic on the bridge because there were tolls and money involved. We also knew a lot about respiratory health issues (in the aggregate due to HIPPA laws which block individual info. At any rate, we knew a lot about levels of truck traffic on 9/10 and we knew a lot about insurance payments for respiratory problems. On 9/11 horrible things happen. On 9/12 we close the bridge. Incredibly quickly (even more quickly than I would have guessed and I pay attention to this stuff) we saw truck traffic drop to near zero and we also saw reports of respiratory problems drop to near zero with that same concentric circle pattern of complaints vis a vis your home and the bridge. As bridge traffic crept up over time, we saw the respiratory reports also creep up in conjunction with the level of truck traffic. There are real and substantial costs associated with living near the Peace Bridge. The ROI calculation is completed by looking at the return generated by the bridge. The direct return does not really go to WNY, it goes to whomever the PBA is paying the tolls it collects to (primarily directly to bond holders and also to the general guvmints. The big rip-off here is the stupid tale elected officials (who collect tons of campaign dollars from the bondholders) try to sell that increased truck traffic benefits the local economy. Nope. When you are shipping something there are 2 things you care about. A. The place it is manufactured and B. the place it is sold. You want to manufacture at as low a cost as you can and you want to sell at a high a price as you can. All points in between you want them to be speed bumps as well really not slowing you down from where you manufacture them to the point you sell them. WNY is a necessary choke point in this journey because you have to cross the river somewhere. Howevver, the trucks have no desire to stop here and leave money here. They make their living driving from point A to point Z. The Peace Bridge ironically is changing as a root for transporting goods anyway. A peak was probably hit in the early part of the millineum but from what I see the manufacture and shipping models are really changing and the Peace Bridge model though it will always be a chokepoint is becoming outmoded as an economic generation tool. Even those bystanders like the Buffalo News that whined a lot about building a new bridge that was a "signature of the area are starting to realize that Frederick Law Olmstead argued for placing Front Park where it is because of its signature view of the natural area. Smart economic development strategies are not those which build more stuff to block human views of this signature location, the deal should be to attract more people to want to live or visit the waterfront and then build an economy around selling stuff to these people. Instead an expanded Peace Bridge merely leaves nothing but air pollution for WNYers while bondholders wwho live out of WNYer collect nickels from trucks driving through the area. Thanks. Interesting stuff I never thought about...............You are exactly at 1000 posts, BTW!
GG Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 He's paying for it, ain't he? Give him a chance. El Pegual is just getting warmed up. VIVA, EL PEGUAL! Of course he's paying for it. The possible return on investment is infinitely higher than if he spent money to build a football stadium.
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