WEDG Report: Rogers meets with Cuomo & Bills

[jo39416]

How did we get to a 7 8 page thread over a meeting that never occurred?

 

Edited: LAST!

Edited June 6, 2014 by jo39416

[Greg F]

This was one of my questions--the Non-Relo specifically states that both the team and county agree upon the terms of irreparable harm; given the context of the language, what makes it such a large hurdle?

 

Your question was addressed on page 3 by CodeMonkey:

 

It's a nit picky point, but according to a lawyer friend it would be Erie County bringing the new owners to court for violating the lease by attempting to move. if the court did not rule to force the Bills to stay put (which according to said lawyer he has never seen a court force a tenant to stay, but he also says he has not heard of anything like this involving a sports team before either so who knows) then the Bills would be forced to either pay the $400 million, or question the validity of the $400 million in which case the court could force Erie County to prove that much in damages.

 

In relation to the $400 million the contract states:

 

The Parties acknowledge that the reasonable forecast of direct damages provided in Section 5(b) is not an exact measure of actual damages, as such an exact measure would be infeasible to estimate or forecast with precision.

 

The new owners could argue that the $400 million is not a realistic estimate of the damages and ask for an adjustment.

[BarleyNY]

There is no denying that they can move in 2020 but it is impossible to do so before that. I don't know the specifics of the Browns lease but the Bills lease and non relocation agreement are 100% ironclad. That is not unintentional. The faster that the sale takes place the better off WNY will be. I still am not that concerned. I started at about 75-25 that they were staying and I am at about 95-5 now.

Here is the issue we had in Cleveland. There were two years left when they moved. Negotiations had been going on for some time prior to that. There were no out clauses, but Modell wanted to move the team. His threat was that if he was forced to stay he would trade away draft picks and players for future picks and put a product devoid of any talent on the field for those two years. Then he'd move the team. No way did the NFL want to see that. He got released from the last two years after agreeing to leave the colors, name and history in Cleveland.

Those tactics and others like them are available to the next Bills owner, too. Cleveland thought they had a lot more time than they actually did. I don't want the Bills fans to be too complacent and rely primarily on the lease. It would be a mistake. The sale of the team will take time. Stadium deals take time. Financing, design and construction take time. Things could be a lot tighter time-wise than most realize.

Edited June 7, 2014 by BarleyNY

[bbb]

Fans of most teams are so lucky. They get to enjoy football and not have to worry about their team moving.

 

We, on the other hand, have had to endure 14 non playoff years and spend our lives parsing lease agreements, trusts, wills, Toronto Sun articles, Tom Golisano interviews, Delaware North press releases, and radio station sound bites - just to name a few.

 

When I went to SU for grad school, I thought about that. Fans of a college team don't have to be under this constant threat that their team is going to leave. It's been the Sword of Damocles for us forever.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Shredd and Regan from WEDG 103.3 the EDGE are reporting that a meeting took place yesterday between Rogers and Cuomo, Schumer and the Bills. Apparently there was yelling involved. Rogers is planning on moving the Bills to Toronto after this season and pay whatever the $400 Million dollar penalty is all about take their chances in the courts.

 

Heard it on the radio, so I don't have a link, so please don't ask. Also, don't shoot the messenger!

 

Rogers ain't moving nothing and he ain't buying us either.

 

Isn't Rodgers dead?

 

he will be.

[ganesh]

The league should consider offering a new franchise to Toronto if there is such a demand for NFL football there. Not likely to put much of a dent in the Bills fan base. Would create a great rivalry and the league and owners get a nice payday.

The NFL is more likely to put a team in London first before Tornoto.

[GA BILLS FAN]

Toronto has always scared me more than L.A.; primarily because the way the NFL would view it, largely incremental, especially if it adds viewers in other Canadian cities. In addition, Toronto is close enough to Buffalo to ease the other NFL owner's conscious.

 

I think we have to be honest with ourselves about a couple of things. First, if a new owner wants this team, he might be willing to spend stupid money to get it. In other words, while money is a deterrent to buying and relocating, it isn't full proof. Second, while the lease is iron clad (or let's assume it is); a new owner who is willing to do the first thing, would certainly be willing to fight in court the lease. Again, neither of these assure a new owner of anything.

 

I think one important thing our politicians, especially Cuomo and Schumur could do is to openly and privately make sure Goodell understands that NY State will not go down without a bloody fight if the NFL approves an ownership group that wants to move team outside of WNY. It's important for Goodell to quietly politic with the other 31 owners to make sure they understand the stain such a legal battle would have on the "shield".

 

Not sure if any lawyers out there know whether fans could put together a class-action suit if these events transpired ?

 

I remain optimistic given the 4-member trust and the lease and local buyers already identifies (Golisano, Trump, hopefully others) that this is highly unlikely, but as one poster said, don't get complacent.

 

 

 

 

[Ronin]

Shredd and Regan from WEDG 103.3 the EDGE are reporting that a meeting took place yesterday between Rogers and Cuomo, Schumer and the Bills. Apparently there was yelling involved. Rogers is planning on moving the Bills to Toronto after this season and pay whatever the $400 Million dollar penalty is all about take their chances in the courts.

 

Heard it on the radio, so I don't have a link, so please don't ask. Also, don't shoot the messenger!

 

LMAO

 

The flack that I've taken for suggesting that this could easily happen.

[Big Turk]

ummm, i think we've strayed from the initial point. did what the initial poster suggest actually happen or is it bogus? no one seems to have any links to this thing or anything verified. the trouble that's occurring with this process is speculation and rumor-mongering are now driving the story to the point where it's very difficult to believe anything that's out there. and i fear this is only going to get worse given the vaccuum of any real news.

 

to suggest this is what was discussed on the radio and a failure to follow it up with actual verification will only lead to these endless debates and discussions that repeatedly fill a whole host of speculative threads already on this board.

 

jw

 

Sounds like their normal "tongue in cheek" news stories that sound real but arent

 

 

Here is the issue we had in Cleveland. There were two years left when they moved. Negotiations had been going on for some time prior to that. There were no out clauses, but Modell wanted to move the team. His threat was that if he was forced to stay he would trade away draft picks and players for future picks and put a product devoid of any talent on the field for those two years. Then he'd move the team. No way did the NFL want to see that. He got released from the last two years after agreeing to leave the colors, name and history in Cleveland.

Those tactics and others like them are available to the next Bills owner, too. Cleveland thought they had a lot more time than they actually did. I don't want the Bills fans to be too complacent and rely primarily on the lease. It would be a mistake. The sale of the team will take time. Stadium deals take time. Financing, design and construction take time. Things could be a lot tighter time-wise than most realize.

 

This only happens if the team is sold to someone wanting to move them, which I still find unlikely

[thebandit27]

 

 

LMAO

 

The flack that I've taken for suggesting that this could easily happen.

 

Perhaps you missed the source--it was Shredd and Ragan; it was obviously a joke

[Delete This Account]

If the new purchaser pays the 400 m, no court is going to issue an injunction. You don't get an injunction when you have money damages. Including the liquidated damages/ buy out provision in the lease kills the county's chance at an injunction.

 

It's going to be easy to void the lease, assuming the owner pays the 400 m and otherwise gets NFL approval.

 

no. the $400 million is not a buyout. it is in place only if a court fails to grant an injunction on relocation. that means, the Bills future would be tied up in court the minute any new ownership group that has previously expressed an intent on relocating the franchise outside of WNY.

should the prospective ownership group then be approved AND pass the legal hurdle, it would then be on the hook to paying the $400 million penalty.

 

the court case would come first. the penalty is the final option.

 

jw

 

 

The new owners could argue that the $400 million is not a realistic estimate of the damages and ask for an adjustment.

 

that could well happen. however, the argument can and will be made that the Bills former ownership signed off on this agreement and considered it to be fair, which would result in a 3 (state, county and franchise) against 1 (new owners) argument.

 

jw

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

no. the $400 million is not a buyout. it is in place only if a court fails to grant an injunction on relocation. that means, the Bills future would be tied up in court the minute any new ownership group that has previously expressed an intent on relocating the franchise outside of WNY.

should the prospective ownership group then be approved AND pass the legal hurdle, it would then be on the hook to paying the $400 million penalty.

 

the court case would come first. the penalty is the final option.

 

jw

 

 

 

that could well happen. however, the argument can and will be made that the Bills former ownership signed off on this agreement and considered it to be fair, which would result in a 3 (state, county and franchise) against 1 (new owners) argument.

 

jw

Great stuff as always JW!!

[ALF]

As long as a new stadium is built ,the other owners won't approve relocation.

[Kirby Jackson]

A sports team is so different than a typical lawsuit though. It has such an economic impact on the region that it simply won't go to liquidated damages IMO. I am not a legal expert but I know a little bit about the goals of a lease deal (at least from a team side). I know that the top legal people on both sides negotiated the lease and non relocation agreement. Neither side wants the team to have the option to leave New York. I am sure that it is written in a manner that will make that impossible until 2020. At that point though all bets are off.

[BillnutinHouston]

Mary Wilson and Mary Owen are decision makers on the trust, along with Littman and another person. It is strange to me that people believe Mr. Wilson would name these people to administer the trust and put them in a position they would be in by selling the team to an ownership group who will move the team.

I've been saying this ever since the trustees were named. No way that Ralph would put his family in harm's way by naming his wife and niece to the trust unless he was confident that the team would stay local. Edited June 7, 2014 by BillnutinHouston

[Greg F]

that could well happen. however, the argument can and will be made that the Bills former ownership signed off on this agreement and considered it to be fair, which would result in a 3 (state, county and franchise) against 1 (new owners) argument.

 

A court is not a democracy.

 

I can see why you would say that based on the lease language, but that's not how I think it is going to play out in reality. If the new owner makes the payment, they have effectively mooted the lawsuit. Game over.

 

The new owner can try to make the payment but the the County, ECSC, or the State are under no obligation to accept the payment. In fact the lease agreement specifically states they will first seek a "decree of specific performance or an injunction".

 

(a) The Parties acknowledge that: (i) the Bills’ obligations under the Non-Relocation Covenants are unique, are the essence of the bargain and are essential consideration for this Agreement and the other agreements being entered into by the Parties as relate to the renovation and operation of the Stadium Complex; (ii) the Team, as property, is extraordinary and unique and that under the organization of professional football by and through the NFL, none of the County, the ECSC or the State may be able to replace the Team; and (iii) the determination of damages caused by a Non-Relocation Default, the effects of which would be suffered by the State, the County, the ECSC and the Western New York community would be difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain. Therefore, the Parties acknowledge and agree that there exists no adequate and complete remedy at law to enforce this Agreement against the Bills, and that equitable relief by way of a decree of specific performance or an injunction (such as a prohibitory injunction barring the Bills from relocating or playing the Games in a facility other than the Stadium or a mandatory injunction requiring the Bills to play the Games at the Stadium) is the only appropriate remedy for the enforcement of this Agreement notwithstanding the provisions for liquidated damages provided elsewhere in this Section 5. In amplification and not in limitation of the foregoing, the County, the ECSC and the State acknowledge and agree that, in the event of a Non-Relocation Default, or the threat of a Non-Relocation Default, the County, the ECSC and/or the State, as the case may be, shall seek equitable relief before attempting to avail itself or themselves of the liquidated damages provisions set forth in Section 5(b), provided that equitable relief is a remedy available and enforceable at the time of the Non-Relocation Default. Additionally, based on the foregoing, the Bills hereby agree as follows:

[GA BILLS FAN]

I've been saying this ever since the trustees were named. No way that Ralph would put his family in harm's way by naming his wife and niece to the trust unless he was confident that the team would stay local.

+1 and the lease are the two BIGGEST things helping keep the team local --- add to that a local buyer, politicians who will fight an owner that wants to move and give owner that wants to stay financial incentives --- add to that a supportive commish and at least 10 supportive owners and things look good ---

[bowery4]

All of this could have been avoided if Ralph would have sold a portion of the team to the next owner. Say what you want about Modell, but that's what he did in Baltimore. Ralph could have chosen his next owner, sold them 49% a couple of years ago and then would have the sale completed upon his death. Instead, he left us with this mess. Sure, he put provisions in place so that it would be DIFFICULT to move the team, but not IMPOSSIBLE. And with $Billions at stake, it is likely that we will see more than a few predators attempt to buy this club with the intention of moving them.

 

I know I'm going to get roasted for this. That's fine. But IF it turns out that someone buys the club and moves them, it will be because Ralph left the door open for that to happen.

 

Knowing that I'm going to get roasted, let me save you the trouble:

 

You idiot. Ralph did everything he could to keep them here. It's not his fault that a group from Toronto overpaid for the team. How was he supposed to know that someone would willingly pay the $400 million to move the club?

 

Right. Because Ralph had NO IDEA that that people like the Roger's family would pay whatever it took to get an NFL team in Toronto. He had NO IDEA that there is literally a lineup of billionaires who have dreamt of owning an NFL team. He had NO IDEA that an overpayment for the Bills plus a $400 million penalty might actually be CHEAPER than getting an expansion franchise, if that option ever presents itself.

 

You idiot. Ralph did everything he could to keep the team in Buffalo. It's not his fault that nobody from Buffalo could compete with the offers from other regions!

 

Right. Because Ralph was completely unaware that a franchise in Buffalo would be worth less than a franchise in Toronto or LA. He knew that this discrepancy would do NOTHING to the bidding process on the club.

 

 

You idiot. Ralph had no choice but to sell the team to the highest bidder after his death.

 

Right. Because this process is the way that every other owner of a sports franchise has taken. Oh wait. NO IT'S NOT!!! There have been dozens and dozens of cases where an elderly owner had to worry about capital gains and estate taxes and STILL found a way to sell their franchise in a different way. THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. THIS PROCESS IS DESIGNED TO DRIVE UP THE VALUE OF THE FRANCHISE, SUBSTANTIALLY. It will do one of two things, drive up the price to the point where nobody in Buffalo can afford to match it, or drive up the price to the point where the new Buffalo owner will be forced to overpay and put the club under financial strain right from day one.

 

You idiot. The other owners still need to approve the move. They would NEVER approve a move to a city like Toronto!

 

Right. Because all of the extra revenue that would come to the league by being in a market with 6 times the population, 10 times the corporate support and the potential for HUGE television contracts will have no appeal to the other owners. Do you think Bob Kraft will give two sh*ts about the blood on his hands by approving a move when he sees how much more money he and the other owners would make? Good grief.

 

Sorry to be a jerk, but I'm pissed off. We shouldn't be having these conversations. Billionaires got to be billionaires because they are opportunistic and have figured out ways to get deals done that were tricky and full of challenges. In order to keep these predators out of this process, Ralph needed to make it AIR TIGHT. The only way to do that was to choose an owner before he died and sell off a portion before opening the door for this mess.

 

Again, I know I'm going to get roasted for this. But I needed to say it. I love the Bills and even though I don't live in Buffalo, it would break my heart to see them move. It would be a tragedy and the thought of it makes me physically sick. I am not saying that the Bills WILL move. Not at all. But I'm saying that Ralph has left that door ajar and that in itself is inexcusable, in my opinion.

 

Go Bills

You idiot ( wow I suddenly feel free to insult you like DC Tom would ). Ralph did everything he could to keep them here and my understanding is that selling before he passed would have had very negative tax implications for his heirs.

A to the rest of this threads contents, I have my doubts the story is true or that Mrs. Wilson would sell to Rogers if this plan was known. (but I guess anything is still possible).

[Kirby Jackson]

+1 and the lease are the two BIGGEST things helping keep the team local --- add to that a local buyer, politicians who will fight an owner that wants to move and give owner that wants to stay financial incentives --- add to that a supportive commish and at least 10 supportive owners and things look good ---

Great post TX, those are TE things that never get mentioned. It is not a fair fight for sure.

[Delete This Account]

 

 

I can see why you would say that based on the lease language, but that's not how I think it is going to play out in reality. If the new owner makes the payment, they have effectively mooted the lawsuit. Game over. I have seen this happen in similar cases (eg, non-compete agreements with liquidated damages provisions).

 

It is a classic "mistake" to include liquidated damages provisions in leases, assuming injunctive relief is what you really want. It basically quantifies the harm, and gives the breaching party the opportunity to calculate and pay the costs of breaching the agreement.

 

If Rogers pays the money, the county won't sue; and if it does, the case would be bounced pretty quickly or just used to get a little premium over the 400 m, IMO.

 

it's NOT a buyout. it is a disincentive and penalty. there is a huge distinction here. the State and County are not going to cave to a cash payment for numerous reasons.

 

first, they would not accept the offer because that would make them complicit in the potential relocation of the franchise. who in their right mind would want that?

 

second, they feel they have "home-field" advantage by having the case go to a NY court.

 

third, the mere process of a court case is a disincentive that would big down a prospective new owner's timetable and certainly make the anti-litigious NFL happy.

 

fourth, the $400 million payout if all fails.

 

jw