eball Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Goodwin, again, I just don't understand the sentiment. His college numbers are worse than Graham's. He too is being expected to do what he's never done. I don't think he'll even be with the team after the '15 season if perhaps not even after this one. I don't think that he'll be a "surprise cut" simply because the team has too much faith in him seemingly. I don't ever see him as being more than a 4th or 5th or putting up much more than Graham ever did. Everyone used to talk about Graham similarly although now the realization has set in. Key difference between Goodwin and Graham? Goodwin can catch. Statements like those made above give me the impression you didn't watch the games. You have every right to be skeptical, we all do despite others trying to convince us otherwise. I think you have it backwards. The skeptics are doing everything they can to convince the optimists otherwise. Again -- if the offseason is not the right time to hope for the best, when is? They should have kept Stevie for one more season, it would have helped immensely with the transition to all of the youth. Instead we get a 4th rounder, maybe a 3rd, but given our history of 3rd and 4th round picks, that falls into the who cares category. Shoulda kept Stevie. I'm willing to guarantee, right now, that unless the Bills sustain injuries to three or more receivers there will not be a single time this season when Bills fans will say during a game, "I wish we still had Stevie."
chris heff Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) This group of WRs is scary that's for sure. Probably the best we've ever had. At least on paper. Let's hope Williams and Watkins can pick it up right away. J. D. Hill, Ahmad Rashad and Bob Chandler were pretty good. As were Reed, Lofton and Beebe, but I get your point. Edited June 2, 2014 by chris heff
YoloinOhio Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) Yeah, Woods was the logical choice to play slot and the team even said that prior to now. You're right. Lotsa "IF's" though. Think about it, we're really expecting a whole lotta things that have never happened to happen here. Watkins hardly made his success in college playing the role of a traditional split (X) WR that he's now going to supposedly be playing regularly with Woods in the slot. Here's the thing about Watkins though, if the team plans on using him in the flats and on screens like Clemson used him, we all saw that this was probably Manuel's worse kind of throw, to the flats and on screens and such. Goodwin, again, I just don't understand the sentiment. His college numbers are worse than Graham's. He too is being expected to do what he's never done. I don't think he'll even be with the team after the '15 season if perhaps not even after this one. I don't think that he'll be a "surprise cut" simply because the team has too much faith in him seemingly. I don't ever see him as being more than a 4th or 5th or putting up much more than Graham ever did. Everyone used to talk about Graham similarly although now the realization has set in What are the expecations for Williams? If they're more than the 700 or 800 yards he's put up on average since he's been in the league I'm not sure that's huge cause for hope. Lastly, Woods. He's the biggest reason for hope here. He's also the only starting WR that Manuel's thrown to. They should have kept Stevie for one more season, it would have helped immensely with the transition to all of the youth. Instead we get a 4th rounder, maybe a 3rd, but given our history of 3rd and 4th round picks, that falls into the who cares category. Shoulda kept Stevie. You keep making this statement and it is refuted with fact, but you continue. Please take a minute to look up Watkins in college beyond this past season. What is Goodwin being asked to do that he's never done? He's the 4th WR. He showed he can catch TDs and that he has world-class speed. Williams averaged 910 yards/season for his first 3 years. Last season he only played in the first 6 games due to injury. Whether or not you choose to believe it, one of the reasons Stevie was traded was because the team felt he would do the exact opposite of what you state. I do know this, as I have a relative who works in a NFL FO in which they were involved in trade conversations with the Bills. Digging as deeply as you can into the negativity bucket is not the same as being skeptical. Edited June 2, 2014 by YoloinOhio
The Wiz Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Meanwhile in SF Wide receiver Stevie Johnson was not in attendance because he has a “little something he’s working through” said Harbaugh, who clutched his hamstring as he explained Johnson’s absence.
Webster Guy Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Meanwhile in SF [/size][/font] hilarious. oh wait until they really need him later in the season. that hammy/groin/ankle combo will really be acting up. harbaugh is going to hate that guy by the season's end.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) I always saw Woods as a Lee Evans type of guy. A little more polished, better at crisp route running and getting open than yards after catch. Our YAC guys seem to be Sammy and Goodwin, which is why I see them as more suited for slot receiver. Maybe I don't understand the slot, but I thought it was generally for shorter routes and quick hits, then letting the receiver make something happen running with the ball. Agreed that Sammy and Goodwin will be a lot more dangerous in the YAC department than Robert Woods. In a different offense I might agree with your larger point Webster, but the Bills play a run n shoot-style passing game, the key principle being attacking downfield in numbers. Using the outside receivers to force the safeties away from the middle of the field, opening deep routes between the hashes for the slot man. Andre Reed, Marques Colston (under Marrone himself) and Victor Cruz are examples of downfield threats who've thrived in the slot in related systems. I think Woods is a decent fit because he can do some of the Welker-style traditional slot stuff, and can attack down the field. FWIW I think the ultimate long-term goal now that we have a player like Watkins (talking years down the road) will be to set up our personnel in a way that allows Watkins to play the slot full-time, in other words to be the Andre Reed of this offense. Right now using him more on the outside and allowing Woods to make plays in the middle is the best way to get full value out of Woods and by extension the WR core at large. Edited June 2, 2014 by Aaron
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) I'm happy about this group, too. But with EJ in only his second year, Watkins a rookie, Woods and Goodwin still developing and no chemistry yet between anyone, this will likely be just a growing year, with us talking "exciting potential!" again next year at this time. I have slightly higher hopes for the defense, but it's tempered by the new scheme Schwartz is bringing in. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with it, but it involves another pretty major change, which means a "growing year" there, too. Someday I'd like to see a coordinator have enough self esteem to come in and keep the same scheme if it works rather than changing it for the sake of being able to claim it's his if it works out, rather than his predecessor's. The team is damned if the scheme is very successful (and the coordinator leaves a la Pettine, with a brand new scheme brought in to confuse the players) AND if it's awful, because it's awful. What you want is a pretty good coordinator who stays four or five years. But of course that damns you, too, since pretty good is not the way to get to the playoffs. Sorry for the cynicism. Fourteen years is long, long time. I'm not sure if in this case it would have been as simple as Schwartz choosing to keep Pettine's system. It was a system built on lining people up in different spots, and varying their roles to the point the offense had no idea who was rushing and who was covering on a given play. Schwartz has spent his career lining up the same four guys with their hand in the dirt and rushing from the same four positions snap after snap. Pettine didn't learn to deceive and befuddle offensive lines on a consistent basis overnight, and I'm skeptical that Jim S. could have. Edited June 2, 2014 by Aaron
Dorkington Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 hilarious. oh wait until they really need him later in the season. that hammy/groin/ankle combo will really be acting up. harbaugh is going to hate that guy by the season's end. How many games did SJ miss due to injury? To me, he was always banged up, but he always played and performed (other than some drops here and there). For all the hate on the guy, you'd think he should be ushered out of the league.
boyst Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 I really like this move. I've been thinking over it and how the game has changed. Woods in the slot will mismatch many defenses causing them to play nickel and dime. Other then Miami I do not this the AFCE has the D to match this lineup. Woods is a very fluid runner who runs crisp routes. His speed is underappreciated but he is like a gazelle. His physical size and his hands will make him valuable lining up against nickel and dime packages. Safeties will not have the speed or strength to match up. Corners he will face will not have the size nor agility to cover him, nor the ability to cover him in confined space. It is very hard to cover a WR or TE in limited space, especially when offenses are running these new type of pick plays against DB's
The Dog Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 I really think he will excel in the slot. And with Watkins, Williams, and Goodwin on the outside, wow this offense could be lethal! Watkins is going to be so fun to watch, I havent been this excited about a Bills team in a longggggggggg time http://www.nfl.com/n...h-buffalo-bills Go Bills, Goodwin and Woods will have break out years without Stevie out there dropping the ball.
YoloinOhio Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 I really like this move. I've been thinking over it and how the game has changed. Woods in the slot will mismatch many defenses causing them to play nickel and dime. Other then Miami I do not this the AFCE has the D to match this lineup. Woods is a very fluid runner who runs crisp routes. His speed is underappreciated but he is like a gazelle. His physical size and his hands will make him valuable lining up against nickel and dime packages. Safeties will not have the speed or strength to match up. Corners he will face will not have the size nor agility to cover him, nor the ability to cover him in confined space. It is very hard to cover a WR or TE in limited space, especially when offenses are running these new type of pick plays against DB's What he said
Jon in Pasadena Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 all of a sudden the BILLS WR corp has become a strength instead of a weakness... If I had a nickel for every time I've read that in the last decade+ of futility I'd have ... pretty much all of the nickels.
Webster Guy Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 How many games did SJ miss due to injury? To me, he was always banged up, but he always played and performed (other than some drops here and there). For all the hate on the guy, you'd think he should be ushered out of the league. well, he usually played and sometimes performed. no hate for stevie, he was a fun guy to watch. the drops never bothered me even though they cost us a few games here and there (pittsburgh a few years ago and last year the cinci drop). my issue with him was probably the same as the front office, he might not be worth the money especially considering he's inconsistent with his health and route running etc. he had good chemistry with fitz for sure, i'm surprised if the titans didn't consider trading for him.
John from Riverside Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 people just seem to remember him hobbling all over the place...... Now.....I credited him for guts for playing through that....but he was a easy cover cuz he was injured.....
smapdi Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Yeah, Woods was the logical choice to play slot and the team even said that prior to now. You're right. Lotsa "IF's" though. Think about it, we're really expecting a whole lotta things that have never happened to happen here. Watkins hardly made his success in college playing the role of a traditional split (X) WR that he's now going to supposedly be playing regularly with Woods in the slot. Here's the thing about Watkins though, if the team plans on using him in the flats and on screens like Clemson used him, we all saw that this was probably Manuel's worse kind of throw, to the flats and on screens and such. I really wish this misconception against Watkins would go somewhere and die a horrible death. I fear its been repeated out of ignorance so many times that people are just starting to believe it without actually reading up on the kid. As a true freshmen at Clemson, Sammy Watkins, in 13 put up: 82 rec / 1219 yards / 15 ypr / 12 TD ... 32 rush / 231 yards / 7.2 ypc In 2011, was just the fourth first-year freshman in NCAA history to garner AP first-team All-America recognition, joining Herschel Walker, Marshall Faulk and Adrian Peterson -- started 10-of-13 games and produced 82 receptions for 1,219 yards (14.9-yard average) and 12 touchdowns. He ran every route under the sun and dominated as an 18 year old. Just look at the company he keeps with his unanimous All-American selection as a true freshmen: Herschel Walker, Marshall Faulk, and Adrien Peterson- that is pretty outstanding company. Defenses had no answer for the way he dissected them down the field. He was truly a great player as a true freshmen. "Gimmick" players who can only catch screens don't get unanimously selected as a first team All-American as a true freshmen; you have to be outstanding to do that as a freshmen and beat out juniors and seniors that have earned their dues. Obviously defenses took notice on how dangerous he was down the field and did the only thing they could do: give him a massive cushion on the line (7-10 yards) and keep a safety deep. This led to him being wide open along the LOS and so Clemson took advantage of that. If Sammy Watkins is wide open, you better believe his QB is getting him the ball. He is just as dangerous 2 yards down the field as he is 40 yards. I'll leave you with his scouting report: Exceptional football playing speed -- can flat out fly and take the top off a defense. Has world-class track speed. Extends outside his frame and plucks the ball. Outstanding body control and agility. Tracks the ball well over his shoulder and is a natural hands-catcher who can make an average quarterback look good. Consistently turns 2-yard gains into 15-yard chunks -- possesses big-time playmaking ability and is very effective creating in the open field on bubble screens and quick-hitting short/lateral tosses. Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. There hasn't been a WR with his total package skill set too come along in a while. He will affect the way the defense plays every single time he is down the field. http://youtu.be/kiE2vjY9gso Edited June 3, 2014 by smapdi
thewildrabbit Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I think Woods could have a breakout year this season, and of course everything depends on EJ and that trio of inexperienced 2nd year QB's. Think about all those five WR sets that Chan Gailey ran with only one decent WR on the field, and everyone knew which one was getting the ball. The Bills now have enough talent on offense to field a great team. If only the Bills OC can put it all together. Will we see a George Edwards / Dave Wannstedt type of offense or a Mike Pettine type? Meaning will the Bills OC stop always running up the middle, and build an explosive offense that can score and win games?
BigBuff423 Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 If I had a nickel for every time I've read that in the last decade+ of futility I'd have ... pretty much all of the nickels. Fair enough to want to wait and see how these WRs perform, but are you really comparing the current WR corp to that of Donald Jones, SJ, and David Nelson?? Chan Gailey's Offense was productive based on his scheme, but for posterity's sake, I'll take EJ Manuel, Mike Williams, Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods and Goodwin with a dash of Chris Hogan or Ramses Barden or Kevin Elliot over the previously mentioned WR group....they haven't proven anything, but when this team seemed to take one scrub after another - save SJ - to try and produce an adequate WR group, this ONE looks the part of a professional gathering of pass-catchers and a playmaker or two...
YoloinOhio Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 If I had a nickel for every time I've read that in the last decade+ of futility I'd have ... pretty much all of the nickels. Really? I have not read that anyone was excited about our WR corp since we had TO and Lee Evans 5 years ago.
Webster Guy Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 How many games did SJ miss due to injury? To me, he was always banged up, but he always played and performed (other than some drops here and there). For all the hate on the guy, you'd think he should be ushered out of the league. well, he usually played and sometimes performed. no hate for stevie, he was a fun guy to watch. the drops never bothered me even though they cost us a few games here and there (pittsburgh a few years ago and last year the cinci drop). my issue with him was probably the same as the front office, he might not be worth the money especially considering he's inconsistent with his health and route running etc. he had good chemistry with fitz for sure, i'm surprised if the titans didn't consider trading for him.
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