To Shed Some Light on the whole New Stadium thing ...

[Kirby Jackson]

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/7264/stadium-group-spurs-talk-on-bills-future

That is the current lease. RB has talked on numerous occasions that the stadium will be 50ish when the lease expires. They won't be signing another 20 year deal to play in an antiquated stadium. This is even more true in today's landscape in terms of revenue splits. These newer stadiums are generating significantly more nonshared revenues. They didn't want to ask for a new stadium with an uncertain ownership future. The new owners will have much more leverage because of the threat to move.

[Kirby Jackson]

Does anyone with more knowledge than me about PSLs understand how they work? If you pay $3K for a PSL, is that a one-time purchase that cannot change? In other words, if the Bills decide five years later to increase the cost of PSLs to $5K, do existing PSL owners have to pay the difference?

 

Also, if a PSL owner chooses not to buy season tickets in a particular year, does that typically mean the PSL is forfeited? Does the owner get the PSL license money automatically refunded?

There are a bunch of variations. It will be a one time purchase and when you own it -you own it. You will have the option to resell it. Here are some FAQs from the Jets that should hopefully help: http://www.newyorkjets.com/tickets-and-stadium/faq.html. It will probably be a little different than theirs just because of the obvious market differences. With that being said, this has some pretty good info.

[Heitz]

Kirby, bandit, PTR (and others), thanks to you guys for being the voices of reason in this tread.

 

It blows mind the amount of folks on TBD that just KNOW it's IMPOSSIBLE to build a new stadium in Buffalo. Call me when you get the Flux capacitor complete and get back from 2020...

[Kirby Jackson]

Kirby, bandit, PTR (and others), thanks to you guys for being the voices of reason in this tread.

 

It blows mind the amount of folks on TBD that just KNOW it's IMPOSSIBLE to build a new stadium in Buffalo. Call me when you get the Flux capacitor complete and get back from 2020...

No problem, it bothers me that the people with the loudest voices (Esmonde) put out uninformed info. This is one of the most important issues that Buffalo has faced in a long time. If he wants to write about it he should be educating the masses not scaring them. He should be speaking with people like Dr. Shawn O'Rouke who heads the Master of Sport Administration program at Canisius. That guy knows SO MUCH about this kind of stuff and knows the market. He is an example of the type of voice that I would like to see educating people. He is a legitimate expert that understands the organization and market. Edited June 2, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Mr. WEO]

I still think it's absolutely amazing that folks believe there aren't enough fans with money in yr area to buy PSLs.

 

When the Sabres made the EC finals 2 years in a row, 19,000 fans had zero trouble plunking down $250/game for 3 home games (and that was for 300 level tix); that's $750 for just one series.

 

Somehow, we believe these same fans cannot afford a $5,000 PSL if given (as is common) a multi year payment plan.

 

Let's remember also that the local economy is stronger now than it was in 06 and 07.

 

Why some fans are so hurried to paint the picture of doom and gloom is beyond me, especially when none of this matters if the new owner is one of the locally-interested parties.

 

In my mind, the math here is pretty simple:

 

$300M from PSLs + $300M from subsidies (spread out over a 30-year tax hit to go along with the lease term) + $200M from the owner = new stadium

 

Wouldn't that amount to 60,000 PSL/Season ticket holders? The Bills just made a grand announcement that they just squeaked out 44,000 this year. Will they really get 60,000 to buy PSLs AND seasons simply because the stadium is new?

 

Please stop trolling the intelligent conversation. 20,000 WNYers at $5k a piece accounts for 40,000 seats. The other 20-25k seats will come from Rochester & Southern Ontario.

 

People have had viable alternatives in the past. You can buy premium seats with license fees (paid annually) or you can now buy regular tickets without. If your ONLY option is a PSL (not an annual license fee) people will buy them. I think that they easily will meet that.

 

Your commenting on the people running the team not knowing anything proves your ignorance (not that it needed a lot of proof). They have been planning this for 17 years (or whenever they moved camp to Fisher). The people running the Bills are GREAT business people with a total grasp of the financial landscape of the NFL. Please stay out of the deep end until you learn how to swim.

 

Not to sound dumb, but what exactly have they been planning for 17 years? They don't even know who the buyer is yet and therefore there is no solid plan for a stadium that will keep the team in town past 2020. Not that I think they will ever leave, just not sure what you mean.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Not to sound dumb, but what exactly have they been planning for 17 years? They don't even know who the buyer is yet and therefore there is no solid plan for a stadium that will keep the team in town past 2020. Not that I think they will ever leave, just not sure what you mean.

I was referring to the need for regionalization to succeed long term. They saw the changing landscape so began expanding to Rochester and later Southern Ontario to try to capitalize on the wealth in those areas. They were trying to cultivate fans. They have done a great job in Rochester and are getting there in Canada (which they have only been allowed to market in for about 1/2 of tht time). I guess the point is that the Bills new long term Buffalo area alone couldn't support the team.

[Mr. WEO]

I was referring to the need for regionalization to succeed long term. They saw the changing landscape so began expanding to Rochester and later Southern Ontario to try to capitalize on the wealth in those areas. They were trying to cultivate fans. They have done a great job in Rochester and are getting there in Canada (which they have only been allowed to market in for about 1/2 of tht time). I guess the point is that the Bills new long term Buffalo area alone couldn't support the team.

 

Got it. But as far as Canada goes, the actual advertisement was having the team play in Toronto. Besides the obviously disastrous game day results, I don't see where the evidence is that there has been a big payoff. Still struggle to sell out games. Just got season tickets back up to the level they were a couple years after the Toronto series started. Still without large Canadian corporate sponsors. I know Russ tells about all the new Southern Ontario ticket buyers, but they must be replacing Americans who no longer go to the games. There does't seem to be a net positive effect.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Got it. But as far as Canada goes, the actual advertisement was having the team play in Toronto. Besides the obviously disastrous game day results, I don't see where the evidence is that there has been a big payoff. Still struggle to sell out games. Just got season tickets back up to the level they were a couple years after the Toronto series started. Still without large Canadian corporate sponsors. I know Russ tells about all the new Southern Ontario ticket buyers, but they must be replacing Americans who no longer go to the games. There does't seem to be a net positive effect.

They have only been allowed to advertise in Canada for about 5 years. It used to fall under NFL Canada which was league specific not team specific (if that makes sense). It is still too early to tell (at least to me) if Canada is productive.

 

Where the net gains will come into play will be when the new stadium comes around. If you figure that with PSLs the seats will be $2k a piece ($1K PSL each year for 5 years & $1K for the tickets) you are shrinking the number of people that can afford it. You need to find more fans that can potentially buy the tickets. Those are my thoughts at least.

 

P.s. I apologize to everyone if I have hijacked this thread a little bit. It is something I am very passionate about and just don't agree with a lot of the info that is out there.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Mr. WEO]

They have only been allowed to advertise in Canada for about 5 years. It used to fall under NFL Canada which was league specific not team specific (if that makes sense). It is still too early to tell (at least to me) if Canada is productive.

 

Where the net gains will come into play will be when the new stadium comes around. If you figure that with PSLs the seats will be $2k a piece ($1K PSL each year for 5 years & $1K for the tickets) you are shrinking the number of people that can afford it. You need to find more fans that can potentially buy the tickets. Those are my thoughts at least.

 

P.s. I apologize to everyone if I have hijacked this thread a little bit. It is something I am very passionate about and just don't agree with a lot of the info that is out there.

 

I think everyone in Southern Ontario/Toronto know about the Bills and that they were playing in town once a year. Not sure what other advertisement would have made a positive difference.

 

Also, it seems clear that many here expect unprecedented levels of season ticket holder support solely due to the advent of a new stadium. It doesn't follow intuitively.

 

I guess if the Bills are playoff team in the next few years, that will be the driving force for all that ticket (and high price) demand. But if they are still a 6-10 team than I can't see MORE fans laying out for PSLs and more expensive seats....new stadium or not.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[mannc]

Kirby, bandit, PTR (and others), thanks to you guys for being the voices of reason in this tread.

 

It blows mind the amount of folks on TBD that just KNOW it's IMPOSSIBLE to build a new stadium in Buffalo. Call me when you get the Flux capacitor complete and get back from 2020...

No one said any such thing. Legitimate questions have been raised regarding the viability/necessity of a new stadium. No one has said it can't be done and no one has said the Bills are not viable long term in WNY. Feel free to disagree with those who raise these questions, but that does not make you or others who disagree the "voices of reason". Edited June 2, 2014 by mannc

[Ronin]

Please stop trolling the intelligent conversation. 20,000 WNYers at $5k a piece accounts for 40,000 seats. The other 20-25k seats will come from Rochester & Southern Ontario.

 

People have had viable alternatives in the past. You can buy premium seats with license fees (paid annually) or you can now buy regular tickets without. If your ONLY option is a PSL (not an annual license fee) people will buy them. I think that they easily will meet that.

 

Your commenting on the people running the team not knowing anything proves your ignorance (not that it needed a lot of proof). They have been planning this for 17 years (or whenever they moved camp to Fisher). The people running the Bills are GREAT business people with a total grasp of the financial landscape of the NFL. Please stay out of the deep end until you learn how to swim.

 

By the way, here's a piece from the weekend that you can use to get your knees wet.

 

http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive

 

It states the same things that I've argued and which have been stated often in the past by multiple sources, along with a few new ones. Things such as that if the Bills fanbase could support shelling out tons of money for luxury suites then they'd be doing it right now, not to mention that there's not a single home-based fortune-500 company.

 

Lastly, he says this;

 

Not to get conspiratorial, but I can’t dismiss the possibility that Goodell is talking “new stadium” to set a higher bar than Buffalo can reach – and give the league a face-saving “out.”

 

I've mentioned this possibility too but few seem to think that this could be the case. IMO that's exactly what's going on.

 

So once again, regarding your post, and ignorance, right back at ya.

Edited June 2, 2014 by TaskersGhost

[thebandit27]

 

 

By the way, here's a piece from the weekend that you can use to get your knees wet.

 

http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive

 

It states the same things that I've argued and which have been stated often in the past by multiple sources, along with a few new ones. Things such as that if the Bills fanbase could support shelling out tons of money for luxury suites then they'd be doing it right now, not to mention that there's not a single home-based fortune-500 company.

 

Lastly, he says this;

 

Not to get conspiratorial, but I can’t dismiss the possibility that Goodell is talking “new stadium” to set a higher bar than Buffalo can reach – and give the league a face-saving “out.”

 

I've mentioned this possibility too but few seem to think that this could be the case. IMO that's exactly what's going on.

 

So once again, regarding your post, and ignorance, right back at ya.

 

As a few of us have tried to explain, Kirby isn't speculating with his comments--he knows the business of the NFL and pro sports from the inside.

 

Please do not be willfully ignorant to that point--it does not strengthen your argument.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that amount to 60,000 PSL/Season ticket holders? The Bills just made a grand announcement that they just squeaked out 44,000 this year. Will they really get 60,000 to buy PSLs AND seasons simply because the stadium is new?

 

 

 

Not to sound dumb, but what exactly have they been planning for 17 years? They don't even know who the buyer is yet and therefore there is no solid plan for a stadium that will keep the team in town past 2020. Not that I think they will ever leave, just not sure what you mean.

 

Apologies as that was supposed to be a 2 ($200M)--hit the wrong button on the iPhone.

 

I was assuming 40,000 PSLs at $5,000 (avg) apiece.

[JohnC]

No problem, it bothers me that the people with the loudest voices (Esmonde) put out uninformed info. This is one of the most important issues that Buffalo has faced in a long time. If he wants to write about it he should be educating the masses not scaring them. He should be speaking with people like Dr. Shawn O'Rouke who heads the Master of Sport Administration program at Canisius. That guy knows SO MUCH about this kind of stuff and knows the market. He is an example of the type of voice that I would like to see educating people. He is a legitimate expert that understands the organization and market.

 

I'm a strong advocate that a new multi-purpose stadium in Buffalo can be feasible. It's obvious that you have a good working knowledge of the complexity and challenge of building a new facility in the region. But let's be fair. More than 50% of the experts of sports finance and economics have a negative view on the franchise's viability after the auction.

 

The funds used for the current stadium renovation bought the franchise some time to sort things out once a new owner was in place. But on the other hand the money used for the renovation could have been applied to a new facility if the prior owner was willing go along with that transition. He didn't. I'm not making a criticism but simply stating a fact.

 

In life you deal with the hand you are dealt. Nothing much could be done until the ownership issue played out. Once we are at the stage where a new owner is in place the stadium process has to move in a steady forward direction. If this region gets caught up in another interminable "Peace Bridge" stalemate or another lingering "Pro Bass" situation then the viability of the franchise will be in serious trouble.

 

 

[gobillsinytown]

I don't believe that it's impossible to build a new stadium in Western New York. To me that's not the issue. The issue to me is how badly does the Western New York community want it? How badly does the community want this entertainment venue? As fans, we all love the Bills. But ultimately, it's entertainment and not necessarily essential to the region.

 

Unfortunately, a new stadium will be the price that will have to be paid. It will be difficult, but not impossible.

[Lurker]

No one said any such thing. Legitimate questions have been raised regarding the viability/necessity of a new stadium. No one has said it can't be done and no one has said the Bills are not viable long term in WNY. Feel free to disagree with those who raise these questions, but that does not make you or others who disagree the "voices of reason".

That applies to the naysayers as well...

[Kirby Jackson]

I guess that I am not articulating my point very well so I apologize for that. I will give it one last try:

 

The Bills are certainly worth more outside of WNY. I don't think that anyone is debating that. What is being debated is whether or not the Bills can be successful in WNY long term and the answer is yes. I was simply trying to explain how it would be looked at from the inside out. The Bills know the economics of WNY but at the same time they do not need 300,000 people to buy PSLs. You may have 300,000 people in LA that WOULD buy them but at the end of the day you are selling 65,000 seats whether you are in LA or WNY. You can obviously charge more in LA.

 

The point that I have been trying to make is that the Bills know exactly what they will need in terms of revenue from PSLs and have a plan for how they will target the universe that can afford it. They have been developing the wealthier areas in the region to make sure that they pick up some of the slack that will be created when certain season ticket holders drop off because they can no longer afford it. A lot of those people will decrease their number of tickets or join with other groups. The fans will still be engaged but at a lower level.

 

My last point is that the economic landscape of WNY that these "experts" keep commenting on is the most overrated issue. They do not need everyone!! They need enough people to support the team and that's it. Obviously, they can make more elsewhere but that is not the issue being argued. There are lots of obstacles in place that will make moving the team difficult.

[Wayne Cubed]

I guess that I am not articulating my point very well so I apologize for that. I will give it one last try:

 

The Bills are certainly worth more outside of WNY. I don't think that anyone is debating that. What is being debated is whether or not the Bills can be successful in WNY long term and the answer is yes. I was simply trying to explain how it would be looked at from the inside out. The Bills know the economics of WNY but at the same time they do not need 300,000 people to buy PSLs. You may have 300,000 people in LA that WOULD buy them but at the end of the day you are selling 65,000 seats whether you are in LA or WNY. You can obviously charge more in LA.

 

The point that I have been trying to make is that the Bills know exactly what they will need in terms of revenue from PSLs and have a plan for how they will target the universe that can afford it. They have been developing the wealthier areas in the region to make sure that they pick up some of the slack that will be created when certain season ticket holders drop off because they can no longer afford it. A lot of those people will decrease their number of tickets or join with other groups. The fans will still be engaged but at a lower level.

 

My last point is that the economic landscape of WNY that these "experts" keep commenting on is the most overrated issue. They do not need everyone!! They need enough people to support the team and that's it. Obviously, they can make more elsewhere but that is not the issue being argued. There are lots of obstacles in place that will make moving the team difficult.

 

Great points Kirby!

 

I think another point that seems to be lost is that PSL are a one time purchase. These aren't being sold year in and year out. They are to recoup the debt incurred when building a stadium. In the end if it's a 65,000 seat stadium and 47,000 need to be sold it doesn't matter if it's in LA or Buffalo or Toronto, only 47,000 are going to be sold. Sure LA could charge more for PSL but then, a stadium in LA would cost more. This is why the PSL's in Dallas/SF/NY are higher, the market can bare it.

 

You can have it one of 2 ways: have PSL's and keep ticket prices relatively low and not have to share the PSL revenue and get out of debt from the stadium faster OR not have PSL's and raise ticket prices. Indy decided not to go PSL route and average ticket prices went from $103 to $180 and that revenue is shared.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Not to be lost on anyone is the fact that, sure, PSLs will be worth more, and total dollars coming in will be more plentiful in LA. But those dollars are going to be eaten up for awhile by relocation costs (both those sanctioned by the league and the real costs inherent in a large-scale move of operations). A new owner in LA is also going to have to put up some of his/her own money for a stadium. This is all presuming they deep-six the years in Buffalo rather than paying $400M in the short term while fighting court battles for the privilege.

 

How much, and how soon, can LA actually make you all that money, as opposed to retaining the current base where stadium upgrades are paid for, and the state, county and other authorities are working to place and build a new stadium project?

[T master]

If the Bills are stripped from Buffalo & it's great NFL history greed & owners like Jerry Johnson will be at the fore front of the movement to deepen their pockets !!

[Webster Guy]

One common mistake I keep hearing is how the league wants more luxury suites. The league doesn't care. Suites are exempt from revenue sharing, they're simply a different and more profitable way to collect revenue for the owners.

 

Lambeau added a bunch of new suites and they still haven't sold them all. Nobody needs to panic about lack of suites for Buffalo.

 

My biz partner and bought into one at the Ralph (4 seats in a shared suite) and I couldn't stand being in there. I would put my 73 inch HD set and the environment of my living room on game day up against that experience any time and win.

 

Being out in the stands is what the experience is about, not being inside a suite. The club level seats are awesome at the Ralph, all the amenities but still outside in the fresh air.