thebandit27 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 The Bills don't need 200,000 people from WNY to spend $10,000 - they need maybe 10% of that. The people that don't understand the economics of the NFL need to stop writing about it. All that it is doing is raising erroneous points and getting the masses all worked up. The facts: -A new stadium will be coming and has always been the plan after 2020 -In all likelihood it will contain PSLs -The PSLs in Minnesota are $3k -There will almost certainly be payment plans for the PSLs WNY can afford to what it will take to retain the team. I guess that what gets me going is the sentiment from those same people that "I can't believe that the NFL wants us to build a new stadium; we can't afford it." If you do not understand what a new stadium means and will entail then you are not qualified to write about it. The Bills have been preparing and planning this for years. There should be zero concerns about the long term feasibility of the Bills in WNY. It is a non issue. The only thing that may be a factor is some guy with way too much money coming in and buying the Bills as a toy (see Steve Ballmer). These other concerns that the uneducated are raising are not worries to the Bills or the potential owners. Thank you.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Thank you. No problem, it has been driving me crazy. Of course they can make more $ in another market but that does not mean that they can't make $ in WNY.
hondo in seattle Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 We need a new stadium mostly because the NFL says we do. Otherwise, I don't think the stadium is vital to the financial viability of a NFL franchise in Buffalo. TV revenue is shared equally among the 32 NFL clubs. So are NFL licensed products. Together, I believe, they account for something like 70% of a team's revenue. Even gate receipts are shared with, as I recall, 60% of ticket sales going to the home team and 40% to the visiting team. What the Bills make at the Ralph is only a small portion of their overall income. The sale of luxury suites is a big thing for teams because I believe the home team gets all the revenue from luxury suites. In Dallas, for example, that can be a very big deal. Nonetheless, thanks mostly to revenue sharing, the Bills pulled in revenues of about $256 million last year (despite not fielding a winning team since woolly mammoths walked the earth) which is average-ish and more than viable teams like the 49ers, the Vikes, Chargers, Chiefs, Falcons, Raiders, etc. Our new owners can make more money somewhere like L.A. where they could fill more luxury suites. But they'll make money in Buffalo too, regardless of what happens with the stadium debate.
JohnC Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) The Bills don't need 200,000 people from WNY to spend $10,000 - they need maybe 10% of that. The people that don't understand the economics of the NFL need to stop writing about it. All that it is doing is raising erroneous points and getting the masses all worked up. The facts: -A new stadium will be coming and has always been the plan after 2020 -In all likelihood it will contain PSLs -The PSLs in Minnesota are $3k -There will almost certainly be payment plans for the PSLs WNY can afford to what it will take to retain the team. I guess that what gets me going is the sentiment from those same people that "I can't believe that the NFL wants us to build a new stadium; we can't afford it." If you do not understand what a new stadium means and will entail then you are not qualified to write about it. The Bills have been preparing and planning this for years. There should be zero concerns about the long term feasibility of the Bills in WNY. It is a non issue. The only thing that may be a factor is some guy with way too much money coming in and buying the Bills as a toy (see Steve Ballmer). These other concerns that the uneducated are raising are not worries to the Bills or the potential owners. Excellent post. The mistake that many people make when considering the high cost of building a stadium is only focusing it on being solely a football facility. The model that should be used when discussing this stadium topic is the Lucas Oil facility in Indianapolis. It is a multi-purpose facility used not only for a variety of sporting events but also serves as a convention center. Because the facility is downtown rather than isolated in the suburbs there has been a greater degree of economic spill-over effect. I used to be an advocate for a full makeover of the current facility in Orchard Park. I have changed my view. It makes little sense to spend close to half a billion $$$$ to upgrade a facility that is going to be used less than a dozen times a year. I would rather spend close to a billion $$$ to build a multi-purpose facility that not only for pro football games but also used for other events such as soccer, lacross, track etc. This region has for a long time considered building a larger covention center to attract larger events. Incorporating a larger convention center with the multi-purpose sporting center makes a lot of financial and economic sense. Edited June 1, 2014 by JohnC
thebandit27 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Excellent post. The mistake that many people make when considering the high cost of building a stadium is only focusing it on being solely a football facility. The model that should be used when discussing this stadium topic is the Lucas Oil facility in Indianapolis. It is a multi-purpose facility used not only for a variety of sporting events but also serves as a oonvention center. The facility is downtown and the there has been a tremendous economic spill-over effect. I used to be an advocate for a full makeover of the current facility in Orchard Park. I have changed my view. It makes little sense to spend close to half a billion $$$$ to upgrade a facility that is going to be used less than a dozen times a year. I would rather spend close to a billion $$$ to build a multi-purpose facility that not only for pro football games but also used for other events such as soccer, lacross, track etc. This region has for a long time considered building a larger covention center to attract larger events. Incorporating a larger convention center with the multi-purpose sporting center makes a lot of financial and economic sense. Another very good point--hosting year-round events is another revenue stream I didn't consider.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) I checked the recent census numbers and you are right about the population, but I am afraid the more important factor is the lack of the sort of corporate wealth in the area that drives increased revenue from new stadiums. Again, Buffalo is not alone in this regard but it is still a problem. I do agree that WNY is not a gold mine for luxury suites, etc. I'm sure the Bills are aware of that and will plan accordingly. The goal is increased revenue. How you achieve the increase is irrelevant. If you have fewer suites sold, you make it up with increased concession revenues from deluxe in-stadium clubs. Here in rockin' Manchester, NH we have an AHL hockey team and a Double-A Eastern League baseball team. (The Jays farm club, FYI, so we are now connected to the Bisons.) The hockey team, owned by AEG, the LA Kings owners, built a private end zone club in the arena accessible only to those who bought expensive "club seat" season ticket packages. Once the bloom came off the novelty of pro hockey those club seats, and the club, are empty most nights. Meanwhile the baseball team built a fabulous sports bar in right field with tableside views of the game plus dozens of TV's showing other games and serving a full menu of food, mixed drinks and craft beers. But instead of limiting access they open the club to everyone in the stadium, even the $6 bleacher seat fans. The result? That place prints money! People grab dinner early, then go to their seats for a few innings, then come back for a nightcap. The club winds up being open for hours after the game is over. So maybe instead of focusing on exclusive luxury areas cordoned off from the masses, you build sports bars with game views open to everyone. PTR Edited June 1, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
JohnC Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Another very good point--hosting year-round events is another revenue stream I didn't consider. Just a snippet how having a multi-purpose facility will result in increased revenue can be related to the naming rights of the facility that will help to pay off the bonds. The selected sponsor certainly will pay more if the facility is used for more events than if it were for only eight home football games. The western NY facility will never garner the amount of naming rights $$$ that Jerry Jones got for his facility in Texas. What enhanced the value for the naming rights was that his facility had plenty of other events (especially big college football games) that increased the exposure for the sponsor. Lucas Oil paid more for the naming rights of the multi-purpose facility because there are numerous events held at the facility, including some college football games and National Championship college basketball games. Terry Pegula as a developer has figured it out and is executing his imaginative plan around his hockey passion. He is creating a new destination market for amateur hockey development with the addition of his new facilities (including rinks and hotels etc.) With a little imagination and through a thoughtful vetting process a similar development can occur with a new fooball plus facility located in Buffalo.
Ronin Posted June 1, 2014 Author Posted June 1, 2014 The Bills don't need 200,000 people from WNY to spend $10,000 - they need maybe 10% of that. lol OK, so 20,000 people to drop $10K on the Bills, in WNY? I think you overestimate the region. We struggle to sell 40K season tickets w/ no licenses, and have struggled to sell some of the least expensive luxury suites in the league. It doesn't help that the people running the team don't know WTF they're doing.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) lol OK, so 20,000 people to drop $10K on the Bills, in WNY? I think you overestimate the region. We struggle to sell 40K season tickets w/ no licenses, and have struggled to sell some of the least expensive luxury suites in the league. It doesn't help that the people running the team don't know WTF they're doing. Please stop trolling the intelligent conversation. 20,000 WNYers at $5k a piece accounts for 40,000 seats. The other 20-25k seats will come from Rochester & Southern Ontario. People have had viable alternatives in the past. You can buy premium seats with license fees (paid annually) or you can now buy regular tickets without. If your ONLY option is a PSL (not an annual license fee) people will buy them. I think that they easily will meet that. Your commenting on the people running the team not knowing anything proves your ignorance (not that it needed a lot of proof). They have been planning this for 17 years (or whenever they moved camp to Fisher). The people running the Bills are GREAT business people with a total grasp of the financial landscape of the NFL. Please stay out of the deep end until you learn how to swim. Edited June 1, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
Ronin Posted June 1, 2014 Author Posted June 1, 2014 Your commenting on the people running the team not knowing anything proves your ignorance (not that it needed a lot of proof). lmao Oh yeah, they're great at it. Hence our status as the most futile team in the NFL at the moment and brushing up against historical futility. What was that you said about the deep end? The team struggled to sellout five games last season, and you think that having PSLs, aka charging even more, is going to help that? Sounds like you're in the kiddie pool to me. Good to see that you know this though. Try doing a modest amount of research first. Here's something to get you on your way; http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10072/would-bills-fans-pay-for-psls Check out the prices that other cities charge for PSLs, then consider that we can't sell out at face value often, and often only with generous people buying thousands of tickets to create that sellout. Do you really think that WNY can get fans to pay those inflated prices? You're cracked if you do.
thebandit27 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 lmao Oh yeah, they're great at it. Hence our status as the most futile team in the NFL at the moment and brushing up against historical futility. What was that you said about the deep end? The team struggled to sellout five games last season, and you think that having PSLs, aka charging even more, is going to help that? Sounds like you're in the kiddie pool to me. Good to see that you know this though. Try doing a modest amount of research first. Here's something to get you on your way; http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10072/would-bills-fans-pay-for-psls Check out the prices that other cities charge for PSLs, then consider that we can't sell out at face value often, and often only with generous people buying thousands of tickets to create that sellout. Do you really think that WNY can get fans to pay those inflated prices? You're cracked if you do. You do know that the poster whose knowledge you're challenging on this subject has worked for multiple pro teams on the business side, right?
PromoTheRobot Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) lmao Oh yeah, they're great at it. Hence our status as the most futile team in the NFL at the moment and brushing up against historical futility. What was that you said about the deep end? The team struggled to sellout five games last season, and you think that having PSLs, aka charging even more, is going to help that? Sounds like you're in the kiddie pool to me. Good to see that you know this though. Try doing a modest amount of research first. Here's something to get you on your way; http://espn.go.com/b...ns-pay-for-psls Check out the prices that other cities charge for PSLs, then consider that we can't sell out at face value often, and often only with generous people buying thousands of tickets to create that sellout. Do you really think that WNY can get fans to pay those inflated prices? You're cracked if you do. You know you are arguing with someone who works in the industry and has far more real experience than you think you do. In fact all you are doing is tossing LOL's and pointing at the team's record. BTW posting a link is hardly doing research. Kirby's point is that PSL's are priced to what the market can bear. What SF and Minny charge is irrelevant to WNY. If Bills fans can't afford or don't want to spend more then I guess Jerry Jones is right and the Bills should move. Something I suspect you secretly root for. Edited June 1, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Kirby Jackson Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 lmao Oh yeah, they're great at it. Hence our status as the most futile team in the NFL at the moment and brushing up against historical futility. What was that you said about the deep end? The team struggled to sellout five games last season, and you think that having PSLs, aka charging even more, is going to help that? Sounds like you're in the kiddie pool to me. Good to see that you know this though. Try doing a modest amount of research first. Here's something to get you on your way; http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10072/would-bills-fans-pay-for-psls Check out the prices that other cities charge for PSLs, then consider that we can't sell out at face value often, and often only with generous people buying thousands of tickets to create that sellout. Do you really think that WNY can get fans to pay those inflated prices? You're cracked if you do. Yes, I think that 20,000 WNYers will buy 2 $5000 PSLs that they can pay off over 5 years (& eventually resell if they so choose). In fact, I don't believe that it is even a concern of potential owners or the current regime. It is a total nonissue. It's okay to be ignorant but it is not okay to be ignorant and claim to be an expert. There are a lot of people on here well versed on these and other issues facing the team in the foreseeable future. You are not one of them. Fortunately the people running the Bills have been working on these issues for years. That is why training camp is in Rochester & a game a year was played in Toronto. The reason for Toronto was 2 fold. It was a short term money grab to bridge the nonshared revenue gap with teams that have modern revenue generating stadiums. In addition, the Canadian market used to fall under the umbrella of NFL Canada. The Bills were not allowed to market there even though it was just miles from the stadium. This has changed in the last 7-8 years which is why you see them moving in on that area. The Bills knew that they would need the Niagara Penisula to be engaged. You are seeing that happen now as I believe there are something like 17,000 STH from Canada. The Bills (or any team) do not really care about fans that do not support the team. They really don't care about the guy that buys 2 tickets to the opener because if he doesn't buy it someone else will. They (and every team) are concerned with attracting fans that purchase every game. The Bills are well aware of how many people in WNY will support the Bills (season tickets) in ideal and non ideal conditions. They are still learning how many people from Canada & even Rochester will pledge their support. Those numbers have grown consistently in recent years despite the non ideal conditions.
Dan Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 The Bills don't need 200,000 people from WNY to spend $10,000 - they need maybe 10% of that. The people that don't understand the economics of the NFL need to stop writing about it. All that it is doing is raising erroneous points and getting the masses all worked up. The facts: -A new stadium will be coming and has always been the plan after 2020 -In all likelihood it will contain PSLs -The PSLs in Minnesota are $3k -There will almost certainly be payment plans for the PSLs WNY can afford to do what it will take to retain the team. I guess that what gets me going is the sentiment from those same people that "I can't believe that the NFL wants us to build a new stadium; we can't afford it." If you do not understand what a new stadium means and will entail then you are not qualified to write about it. The Bills have been preparing and planning this for years. There should be zero concerns about the long term feasibility of the Bills in WNY. It is a non issue. The only thing that may be a factor is some guy with way too much money coming in and buying the Bills as a toy (see Steve Ballmer). These other concerns that the uneducated are raising are not worries to the Bills or the potential owners. Best post in the thread, and pretty much ends the discussion. However, I will add... It seems to me WNY suffers from plain old normal depression more than economic depression. The saddest part of reading this thread are all the posters that have simply given up. We're too poor, not big enough, nothing good will ever happen here... so why even try, just give in and let the world pass us by, we can't ever be better.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Best post in the thread, and pretty much ends the discussion. However, I will add... It seems to me WNY suffers from plain old normal depression more than economic depression. The saddest part of reading this thread are all the posters that have simply given up. We're too poor, not big enough, nothing good will ever happen here... so why even try, just give in and let the world pass us by, we can't ever be better. Really well put!! I just want to shake people and say "do you want this team or not?"
PromoTheRobot Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Really well put!! I just want to shake people and say "do you want this team or not?" I think some people have such a fear of disappointment they automatically assume failure. It's a defense mechanism.
Cloverbank Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 I do agree that WNY is not a gold mine for luxury suites, etc. I'm sure the Bills are aware of that and will plan accordingly. The goal is increased revenue. How you achieve the increase is irrelevant. If you have fewer suites sold, you make it up with increased concession revenues from deluxe in-stadium clubs. Here in rockin' Manchester, NH we have an AHL hockey team and a Double-A Eastern League baseball team. (The Jays farm club, FYI, so we are nowconnected to the Bisons.) The hockey team, owned by AEG, the LA Kings owners, built a private end zone club in the arena accessible only to those who bought expensive "club seat" season ticket packages. Once the bloom came off the novelty of pro hockey those club seats, and the club, are empty most nights. Meanwhile the baseball team built a fabulous sports bar in right field with tableside views of the game plus dozens of TV's showing other games and serving a full menu of food, mixed drinks and craft beers. But instead of limiting access they open the club to everyone in the stadium, even the $6 bleacher seat fans. The result? That place prints money! People grab dinner early, then go to their seats for a few innings, then come back for a nightcap. The club winds up being open for hours after the game is over. So maybe instead of focusing on exclusive luxury areas cordoned off from the masses, you build sports bars with game views open to everyone. PTR Spot on PTR ... and look, I posted something !
Lurker Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 I think some people have such a fear of disappointment they automatically assume failure. It's a defense mechanism. Sad but true. The straw man in this whole discussion is that the Bills have to have a revenue stream on par with the Cowboys or Redskins, otherwise the team is a gone. A new stadium that generates 10%-20% more revenue per season (to cover debt service), with the option to be a multi-use venue (and hence a totally new and incremental revenue stream on top of what OBD can produce) should be more than enough to keep the Bills in WNY. That's not a particularly difficult or unattainable goal.
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 . . . The facts: -A new stadium will be coming and has always been the plan after 2020 . . . The Bills have been preparing and planning this for years. . . . http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/7264/stadium-group-spurs-talk-on-bills-future "One of the discussions we had with the Bills organization as we entered into the last lease negotiations was, 'Did [the Bills] want a new stadium?' We looked at all aspects of it," Poloncarz told WGR 550. "The Bills came back, and they said 'No.' . . .
Rubes Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Does anyone with more knowledge than me about PSLs understand how they work? If you pay $3K for a PSL, is that a one-time purchase that cannot change? In other words, if the Bills decide five years later to increase the cost of PSLs to $5K, do existing PSL owners have to pay the difference? Also, if a PSL owner chooses not to buy season tickets in a particular year, does that typically mean the PSL is forfeited? Does the owner get the PSL license money automatically refunded?
Recommended Posts