To Shed Some Light on the whole New Stadium thing ...

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The AP's @john_wawrow is in-studio with @Bulldogwgr for the next hour. #Bills ownership/stadium on the table and your calls! Join us.

[jester43]

It's worth noting that Canada, unlike the USA, does not allow tax deductions for luxury suites. So any rich Canadian or Canadian corporation buying a suite, in Buffalo or Toronto, is footing the entire bill. In the USA companies write off such purchases, so in effect we subsidize millionaire playpens.

 

B-b-b-because....FREEDOM!!

[Kirby Jackson]

These kind of things make me chuckle. We have been so sheltered from this dynamic for at least a decade and potentially longer. The Bills have been gearing for this for 17 years (or whenever they moved camp to Rochester). We are just recently being exposed to this "new sports environment" but the reality is in the majority of the sports world this is the norm. Just accept the changing landscape because it is never reverting back. There is just too much money to be made. There is not a meeting in pro sports where they are discussing what the fans would like unless it is tied to the almighty dollar. When those conversations do take place it is with the not so hidden agenda of growing and retaining revenue. "If we add X, the short and long term financials impacts are Y &Z." These are staffs of highly educated business professionals that get paid very well to grow and retain revenue. Fortunately for us the Bills are really good at this.

 

Enjoy the new world. Enjoy the high end ammenities but do so without sacrificing the soul of our identity.

[Mark Vader]

Does anyone else feel the momentum shifting away from the idea of "don't worry, there is NO WAY this team leaves here?" lately?

No.

[The Wiz]

Here's my question. The company/firm/whatever that has been pitching stadium idea's has their priorities set.

 

#1. The stadium has to accommodate and/or be super bowl ready.

 

With that being said, why??? Buffalo has about the same chance of holding a super bowl as they do a winter Olympics. They don't have the infrastructure,economy, housing, etc. to pull it off. So why try toting a fancy state of the art stadium that is super bowl ready when they will never play there?

 

Why not say, I don't want the souped up version of this and give me something that is new/function/luxury boxes/etc that will make people happy without having to spend a 1.3 billion dollars?

Edited May 30, 2014 by The Wiz

[Kirby Jackson]

Here's my question. The company/firm/whatever that has been pitching stadium idea's has their priorities set.

 

#1. The stadium has to accommodate and/or be super bowl ready.

 

With that being said, why??? Buffalo has about the same chance of holding a super bowl as they do a winter Olympics. They don't have the infrastructure,economy, housing, etc. to pull it off. So why try toting a fancy state of the art stadium that is super bowl ready when they will never play there?

 

Why not say, I don't want the souped up version of this and give me something that is new/function/luxury boxes/etc that will make people happy without having to spend a 1.3 billion dollars?

I don't think that they have to have a Super Bowl ready stadium for all of the reasons that you listed. Buffalo does not have the hotels, cabs, etc...

 

With that being said the main priority will be a revenue generating stadium. The cost of all revenue generating stadiums is in the same range. It does not cost more to make it Super Bowl ready (at least not for a new stadium).

[The Wiz]

I don't think that they have to have a Super Bowl ready stadium for all of the reasons that you listed. Buffalo does not have the hotels, cabs, etc...

 

With that being said the main priority will be a revenue generating stadium. The cost of all revenue generating stadiums is in the same range. It does not cost more to make it Super Bowl ready (at least not for a new stadium).

The renovations that were/will be done to Browns stadium were apparently well accepted. We are doing the same thing now but Goodell and other people are saying we need a new stadium to stay in buffalo. Sounds more like the NFL/owners trying to make us spend more to make more since we don't have a voice in the owners office (Ralph).

Edited May 30, 2014 by The Wiz

[Kirby Jackson]

 

The renovations that were/will be done to Browns stadium were apparently well accepted. We are doing the same thing now but Goodell and other people are saying we need a new stadium to stay in buffalo. Sounds more like the NFL/owners trying to make us spend more to make more since we don't have a voice in the owners office (Ralph).

This new stadium was always coming after this lease. RWS simply cannot generate the revenue needed to compete. The Bills new this and that's why they signed the shorter lease. They will need something at least like what's in Cleveland and all the way up to a Lucas Oil.

[boyst]

a kknow if I am one of those fancy pants architects I find a way to put in some of fashioned bleacher seats in the stadium to give it a retro feel. I am talking the open air beneath you, wood board and all. Maybe put glass beneath it so you can't fall, but something cool like that to throw back.

[Philly McButterpants]

No. Or at least not for the priviliged few. Like these oppressed and downtrodden folks: http://www.salon.com...urce=newsletter

 

Wow, Salon.com... that bastion of non-biased, middle-of-the-road opinion.

 

Maybe Bill should list the actual amount of taxes paid by those companies.

 

Take it to PPP . . .

[Ronin]

It's worth noting that Canada, unlike the USA, does not allow tax deductions for luxury suites. So any rich Canadian or Canadian corporation buying a suite, in Buffalo or Toronto, is footing the entire bill. In the USA companies write off such purchases, so in effect we subsidize millionaire playpens.

 

That is correct, and we also subsidize NFL owners and by default then, the players, many of whom are also millionaires.

 

The system that is the NFL has gotten out of hand, just as it has with all sports.

 

Most of that article is more opinion than fact. True luxury box seats are up to 20%. That means the overwhelming majority of seats are not, so it's hard to see how "corporate" these games have become based on that stat alone. Exactly how does this guy quantify "stuffy" and "corporate" and lack of "heart"?

 

Also, PSL's are fan investments that are free to be sold by fans for profit. Nothing wrong with that. Plus, the secondary market (where many season ticket/PSL holders pedal their seats) makes tickets very easily available in every NFL town for every game--sometimes for less than face value.

 

All this histrionic moaning about "corporate" ruination of NFL games is bogus. As the article has pointed out, the NFL has made it much more atractive to sit at home and live it up all day Sunday (and Thursday night).

 

Nice of you to challenge as an opinion when the guy cites data. Meanwhile, you throw out a "20%" figure but don't explain what it is.

 

If you mean 20% of seating capacity, and you think that this reasoning does not stand, I simply don't know what to say.

[Ronin]

Obviously it's difficult to project what may or may not be do-able luxury-box-wise with a new stadium...my guess (and that's all i can offer at this point) is that (a) they would be able to sell more with a newer venue, and (b) the difficulty in selling them could/would be mitigated partially with PSLs.

 

Don't know either for a fact though.

 

Yes we do know.

 

"We can't afford seat licenses and luxury suites," Erie County executive Mark Poloncarz said in February.

 

That’s the context for Jones’ comments. The modern NFL is a cash cow and some owners may feel that the Buffalo market — home to one of the NFL’s oldest stadiums and one of the league’s least expensive tickets — is holding the league back.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/9827/jerry-jones-signals-mixed-on-bills-future

[Ronin]

Does anyone else feel the momentum shifting away from the idea of "don't worry, there is NO WAY this team leaves here?" lately?

 

Indeed.

 

As I've been saying, once some distance is put between Wilson's passing, we'll start hearing the "other side."

 

Here's the same link as above;

 

http://espn.go.com/b...on-bills-future

 

Jerry Jones says exactly that, he won't discuss it quite yet out of respect.

 

But once enough time has passed, and IMO we're there now, then the gloves will come off. As several other posters have stated or implied, those not blinded by notions that Buffalo's the center of much of anything, it's all about the money and the accommodation to the wealthy.

 

Jones mentions Toronto directly and there is absolutely no question whatsoever that Toronto would do what he says. Frankly, and while I wouldn't, but I think that many Bills fans would still watch the games even if they wouldn't go to them. IMO Jones and other owners know that. Not that it's all that relevant because the WNY TV market really isn't huge by metro standards, but still.

 

As I've also said often, I think that it's foolish to think that they might not move to one of several other cities that presently don't have a team. All of the following are bigger metro areas: Las Vegas, Portland, Oklahoma City, Memphis, Omaha.

 

As well, I also don't see this $400M buyout option as a major hurdle. The owners can easily find a way out of that.

 

I still see the team going to Toronto. There's been way too much hubbub in recent years about the NFL going international, and IMO they'll never have a better opportunity at a "good first step" in that regard. It's not going to be England before Canada, if England ever at all, and in Canada it's not going to be any city but Toronto. I highly doubt that there are ever teams in Toronto and Buffalo simultaneously. Think about that for a second.

 

All I know is that many of the major things we were originally told have been stood on their heads:

 

The sale would take years: now we're talking about having a new owner by October.

 

The Wilson's control the sale: the owners control the sale.

 

The only talk has been about owners desiring to keep the team in Buffalo: Now talk about owners wanting to move the team will begin surfacing.

 

If it benefits the other owners to move the team, $400M isn't going to be a showstopper. Particularly if behind closed doors the new owner has designs on moving, has a closed door meeting with Buffalo/Erie execs, and tells them that he's not going to put much into the team in Buffalo and will suck up his losses, and then move the team in '20, ... OR ..., they can take say $50M as a buyout. I'm sure that giving them one or two a small sum to help the decision-making process isn't out of the question as well.

 

These "legal" things are rarely in stone and hardly ever non-negotiable.

Edited May 31, 2014 by TaskersGhost

[Ramius]

I've joked with some friends about this before, but the idea seems less and less ridiculous every day. If you wanted to move a team to LA, to hell with building a normal stadium and trying to attract a "fan base" to the local team. .Build a stadium in LA composed of nothing but luxury suites, and make it an event for all of the stars/celebs/businesses out there. You'd make a killing.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Yes we do know.

 

"We can't afford seat licenses and luxury suites," Erie County executive Mark Poloncarz said in February.

 

That’s the context for Jones’ comments. The modern NFL is a cash cow and some owners may feel that the Buffalo market — home to one of the NFL’s oldest stadiums and one of the league’s least expensive tickets — is holding the league back.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/9827/jerry-jones-signals-mixed-on-bills-future

 

PSLs are absolutely an option--Polancarcz is posturing at best, flat incorrect at worst.

 

I know for a fact I can afford one, and I know that nearly every single season ticket holder I know can afford one as well.

 

As for the $400M buyout you keep insisting is a slam dunk if the NFL wants it, I woul encourage you to read the lease; it's a near impossibility unless the County just says "ah screw it; who wants the NFL anyway?"...which they aren't going to do.

 

I've joked with some friends about this before, but the idea seems less and less ridiculous every day. If you wanted to move a team to LA, to hell with building a normal stadium and trying to attract a "fan base" to the local team. .Build a stadium in LA composed of nothing but luxury suites, and make it an event for all of the stars/celebs/businesses out there. You'd make a killing.

 

Until the team had zero home field advantage because there are nothing but luxury boxes--then it becomes a case of being unable to attract coaches, free agents, etc and having a poor TV market--which is the real money maker.

[Ronin]

I've joked with some friends about this before, but the idea seems less and less ridiculous every day. If you wanted to move a team to LA, to hell with building a normal stadium and trying to attract a "fan base" to the local team. .Build a stadium in LA composed of nothing but luxury suites, and make it an event for all of the stars/celebs/businesses out there. You'd make a killing.

 

But they'd have to actually show up to the games or it would be a joke for the NFL. They'd also have to have "regular seating" just for appearances.

 

I hear ya, but I still discount LA as a landing spot. Toronto seems to be the spot for numerous reasons.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

PSLs are absolutely an option--Polancarcz is posturing at best, flat incorrect at worst.

 

I know for a fact I can afford one, and I know that nearly every single season ticket holder I know can afford one as well.

 

As for the $400M buyout you keep insisting is a slam dunk if the NFL wants it, I woul encourage you to read the lease; it's a near impossibility unless the County just says "ah screw it; who wants the NFL anyway?"...which they aren't going to do.

 

 

 

Until the team had zero home field advantage because there are nothing but luxury boxes--then it becomes a case of being unable to attract coaches, free agents, etc and having a poor TV market--which is the real money maker.

They are coming. No offense to Polancarcz but the Bills have a much better sense for what the market will bare and understand the revenue streams infinitely more than he does. They will not all come from WNY IMO it will be about 1/2. Can WNYers pay $5000 one time for 30,000 seats? Can 15,000 people fork over a 1 time $10,000 payment for 2 seats (that they can resell)?

 

If that is impossible we need to stop talking about what a great fan base we have. We may be passionate but not great.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Ronin]

PSLs are absolutely an option--Polancarcz is posturing at best, flat incorrect at worst.

 

I know for a fact I can afford one, and I know that nearly every single season ticket holder I know can afford one as well.

 

As for the $400M buyout you keep insisting is a slam dunk if the NFL wants it, I woul encourage you to read the lease; it's a near impossibility unless the County just says "ah screw it; who wants the NFL anyway?"...which they aren't going to do.

 

 

 

Until the team had zero home field advantage because there are nothing but luxury boxes--then it becomes a case of being unable to attract coaches, free agents, etc and having a poor TV market--which is the real money maker.

 

I think that you're out of touch with the average Bills fan. Also, who's going to buy PSLs for a losing team? I can't even begin to tell you how many of my personal friends have not only quit their seasons, but don't even bother going to games anymore because the team sucks with no end in sight. Until the FO changes it will be same-old same-old just like it has since Wilson's owned the team with one brief pause when Polian was in charge.

 

And I'm talking about fans that used to make some of the biggest tailgating parties during the '90s era Bills, not merely lukewarm fans. You can rant on about them not being real fans all you want, but that's to ignore the point.

 

As to your latter point, I don't think in that case that homefield advantage would be a factor. His point was that in L.A. it's all about the status. The team may suck because the players don't like playing there, which is a different matter.

 

I suspect that if something like that were to happen it would be a lot more luxury suites but still 30-40K standard seating.

[Lurker]

Can WNYers pay $5000 one time for 30,000 seats? Can 15,000 people fork over a 1 time $10,000 payment for 2 seats (that they can resell)?

I think of it in terms of the car sales analogy--it's not the sticker price that matters, it's the monthly payment.

 

If PSL's can be amoritized over 48 months, the buying power equation gets a lot more favorable.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I think of it in terms of the car sales analogy--it's not the sticker price that matters, it's the monthly payment.

 

If PSL's can be amoritized over 48 months, the buying power equation gets a lot more favorable.

Great point and I think that will be an option.