To Shed Some Light on the whole New Stadium thing ...

[Ronin]

They are coming. No offense to Polancarcz but the Bills have a much better sense for what the market will bare and understand the revenue streams infinitely more than he does. They will not all come from WNY IMO it will be about 1/2. Can WNYers pay $5000 one time for 30,000 seats? Can 15,000 people fork over a 1 time $10,000 payment for 2 seats (that they can resell)?

 

If that is impossible we need to stop talking about what a great fan base we have. We may be passionate but not great.

 

Apparently you missed it over the last bunch of years, the team can't even come close to selling out its premium seating like other teams do.

 

This team can't even sell out regular season games at face value without manufacturing sellouts, last season it was one non-sellout and four "aided" sellouts, you think that by raising the prices by charging people a $5K seat license, or whatever it would be, will sell more tix? Seriously?

 

They, the team, has already expressed difficulties selling luxury suites.

 

The world doesn't revolve around you in this way. Many fans can probably "afford" them, but who wants to go watch a team consistently play uninspired football? Why would any true fan be content with that on a consistent basis?

 

Great point and I think that will be an option.

 

And what is the PSL license fee in Buffalo going to be?

 

What would it be in Toronto?

 

Think that through.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I think that you're out of touch with the average Bills fan. Also, who's going to buy PSLs for a losing team? I can't even begin to tell you how many of my personal friends have not only quit their seasons, but don't even bother going to games anymore because the team sucks with no end in sight. Until the FO changes it will be same-old same-old just like it has since Wilson's owned the team with one brief pause when Polian was in charge.

 

And I'm talking about fans that used to make some of the biggest tailgating parties during the '90s era Bills, not merely lukewarm fans. You can rant on about them not being real fans all you want, but that's to ignore the point.

 

 

If you were looking to potentially buy this team what would you think of this? Would that be an environment that you wanted to invest your money? The Bills are not going to be changing for the average fan; the fans are going to have to adapt to today's NFL. We better get used to that now.

 

 

 

Apparently you missed it over the last bunch of years, the team can't even come close to selling out its premium seating like other teams do.

 

This team can't even sell out regular season games at face value without manufacturing sellouts, last season it was one non-sellout and four "aided" sellouts, you think that by raising the prices by charging people a $5K seat license, or whatever it would be, will sell more tix? Seriously?

 

They, the team, has already expressed difficulties selling luxury suites.

 

The world doesn't revolve around you in this way. Many fans can probably "afford" them, but who wants to go watch a team consistently play uninspired football? Why would any true fan be content with that on a consistent basis?

 

 

 

And what is the PSL license fee in Buffalo going to be?

 

What would it be in Toronto?

 

Think that through.

Obviously, they can make more money in Toronto. I am positive that I have never said anything other than that.

 

I happen to know a little about sports business and the reality is it is coming. We either sell the PSLs to help fund the new stadium or risk losing the team to a market that can generate substantially more money. People that only support the team based on the record are in no way valued by the team. I can speak 1st hand to that. There is always someone that will buy a ticket when you win so they don't need you anyways. They need stability. It is the people that stabilize the franchise that matter to ownership and the organization. There is a reason that people are honored for tenure.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[thebandit27]

 

 

I think that you're out of touch with the average Bills fan. Also, who's going to buy PSLs for a losing team? I can't even begin to tell you how many of my personal friends have not only quit their seasons, but don't even bother going to games anymore because the team sucks with no end in sight. Until the FO changes it will be same-old same-old just like it has since Wilson's owned the team with one brief pause when Polian was in charge.

 

And I'm talking about fans that used to make some of the biggest tailgating parties during the '90s era Bills, not merely lukewarm fans. You can rant on about them not being real fans all you want, but that's to ignore the point.

 

As to your latter point, I don't think in that case that homefield advantage would be a factor. His point was that in L.A. it's all about the status. The team may suck because the players don't like playing there, which is a different matter.

 

I suspect that if something like that were to happen it would be a lot more luxury suites but still 30-40K standard seating.

 

No offense here...It seems perhaps I'm not the one out of touch.

 

While countless friends of yours have quit their tickets, the team has managed to sell 44,000 season tickets already, so someone is buying them.

 

As for the "average" fan, I can only presume, but based on the last 27 years of attending nearly every home game, it sure feels like I share an enormous commonality with most fans.

 

Also, the FO has changed--I don't know if you've noticed the massive difference in MO since Whaley took over, or the fact that the entire pro and college scouting departments are revamped, but I can assure you, the changes have taken place.

 

Will they ultimately be successful on ye field? We'll have to wait and see.

 

Lastly, as Kirby and others point out, do the math in the PSL issue--it really is quite doable for most people.

[TheFunPolice]

"Toronto is only an hour away" is what we're about to hear a LOT this week I think

 

Awww shucks, see it's all ok!

 

Oh well, it's a nice sunny day so I'm going to go enjoy it! None of us can control what greedy billionaires do. It does significantly decrease my excitement for this season though, that's for sure!

[HopefulFuture]

I posted aways back on this. I think many fans, many of them, are blinded by their emotions on this. A new stadium here doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the economics of the area. We are the 3rd poorest city in America on the last list formed. Schumer or other political nonsense that people point to is ridiculous. This is going to be a business decision pure and simple.

[Ronin]

If you were looking to potentially buy this team what would you think of this? Would that be an environment that you wanted to invest your money? The Bills are not going to be changing for the average fan; the fans are going to have to adapt to today's NFL. We better get used to that now.

 

Obviously, they can make more money in Toronto. I am positive that I have never said anything other than that.

 

I happen to know a little about sports business and the reality is it is coming. We either sell the PSLs to help fund the new stadium or risk losing the team to a market that can generate substantially more money. People that only support the team based on the record are in no way valued by the team. I can speak 1st hand to that. There is always someone that will buy a ticket when you win so they don't need you anyways. They need stability. It is the people that stabilize the franchise that matter to ownership and the organization. There is a reason that people are honored for tenure.

 

The team tried to sell premium seats a few years ago and it didn't go well at all. Remember all the empties.

 

WNY simply does not have the population base to to support the reality, which we agree on.

 

I know a number of people here that work at wage-grade, and other forums too. They can't afford to pay for PSLs.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

The team tried to sell premium seats a few years ago and it didn't go well at all. Remember all the empties.

 

WNY simply does not have the population base to to support the reality, which we agree on.

 

I know a number of people here that work at wage-grade, and other forums too. They can't afford to pay for PSLs.

A lot of it will be coming from Rochester and Southern Ontario. Buffalo will be about 1/2 & those 2 markets about 1/2 of a 65,000 seat stadium.

[Ronin]

I posted aways back on this. I think many fans, many of them, are blinded by their emotions on this. A new stadium here doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the economics of the area. We are the 3rd poorest city in America on the last list formed. Schumer or other political nonsense that people point to is ridiculous. This is going to be a business decision pure and simple.

 

You got that right. Even if they make it to '20, which I'd bet good money won't happen, the team will likely uproot and go away.

 

Here's the scenario that I envision unfolding.

 

New owner buys team. Sees how the Bills have made money with a **** product on the field.

 

Does the same between now and 2019/2020.

 

Then has plans to move the team to somewhere that will build a nice stadium for him, a state-of-the-art one, and where he/she/they can sell premium seating like other top NFL teams.

 

I see them approaching Erie county execs, who own the lease, to negotiate an earlier buyout while perhaps lining the pockets of the same on the side.

 

Otherwise, everything's for sale. If an owner determines that he can make $20M more elsewhere, in profit, hardly inconceivable, it may well be worth his while to break a lease outright.

 

A lot of it will be coming from Rochester and Southern Ontario. Buffalo will be about 1/2 & those 2 markets about 1/2 of a 65,000 seat stadium.

 

Why didn't they come the first time they tried this? Much premium seating is still available in Buffalo by my understanding. I haven't researched it lately, or read much on it, but I have difficulty believing that all of their problems have been solved in a few years with a losing team. I have read about companies quitting.

 

Oh well, it's a nice sunny day so I'm going to go enjoy it! None of us can control what greedy billionaires do. It does significantly decrease my excitement for this season though, that's for sure!

 

I agree, as if we don't have enough to dampen our excitement for the season given that we're presently the league's most futile team and a season away from making history in that regard.

 

Sell the dam thing already and let's move on.

[BillsVet]

I still cannot see a new owner or group putting down 1B and having to contribute to a new stadium while taking in "only" 35-40M per. That's a poor ROI on perhaps spending more than a billion dollars to purchase the team and put toward the new place they'll play.

[Ronin]

I still cannot see a new owner or group putting down 1B and having to contribute to a new stadium while taking in "only" 35-40M per. That's a poor ROI on perhaps spending more than a billion dollars to purchase the team and put toward the new place they'll play.

 

As long as the funny money system stays in place and politicians can just spend off of their money trees, some municipality somewhere will fund the financing on new stadiums for owners.

 

The NFL operates in a fascist economic model, not a free market model.

 

It's just not going to happen in Buffalo for the long-term.

 

Maybe I'm wrong as NYS is among the leaders in overspending.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Why didn't they come the first time they tried this? Much premium seating is still available in Buffalo by my understanding. I haven't researched it lately, or read much on it, but I have difficulty believing that all of their problems have been solved in a few years with a losing team. I have read about companies quitting.

 

The main thing is that there were other options. You could sit a midfield in the lower bowl for $400 for the season!! That will never happen again. Premium seats were an option. The PSLs will be attached to all or at least most of the seats. There will not be more cost effective alternatives to PSLs (if there are alternatives at all). The premium seats had some issues too, seat heaters were breaking, etc...The PSLs won't be the luxury option, they will be the option. Edited May 31, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[thebandit27]

I still think it's absolutely amazing that folks believe there aren't enough fans with money in yr area to buy PSLs.

 

When the Sabres made the EC finals 2 years in a row, 19,000 fans had zero trouble plunking down $250/game for 3 home games (and that was for 300 level tix); that's $750 for just one series.

 

Somehow, we believe these same fans cannot afford a $5,000 PSL if given (as is common) a multi year payment plan.

 

Let's remember also that the local economy is stronger now than it was in 06 and 07.

 

Why some fans are so hurried to paint the picture of doom and gloom is beyond me, especially when none of this matters if the new owner is one of the locally-interested parties.

 

In my mind, the math here is pretty simple:

 

$300M from PSLs + $300M from subsidies (spread out over a 30-year tax hit to go along with the lease term) + $200M from the owner = new stadium

[Kirby Jackson]

I still think it's absolutely amazing that folks believe there aren't enough fans with money in yr area to buy PSLs.

 

When the Sabres made the EC finals 2 years in a row, 19,000 fans had zero trouble plunking down $250/game for 3 home games (and that was for 300 level tix); that's $750 for just one series.

 

Somehow, we believe these same fans cannot afford a $5,000 PSL if given (as is common) a multi year payment plan.

 

Let's remember also that the local economy is stronger now than it was in 06 and 07.

 

Why some fans are so hurried to paint the picture of doom and gloom is beyond me, especially when none of this matters if the new owner is one of the locally-interested parties.

 

In my mind, the math here is pretty simple:

 

$300M from PSLs + $300M from subsidies (spread out over a 30-year tax hit to go along with the lease term) + $200M from the owner = new stadium

As usual you are spot on

[Dr. Who]

I posted aways back on this. I think many fans, many of them, are blinded by their emotions on this. A new stadium here doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the economics of the area. We are the 3rd poorest city in America on the last list formed. Schumer or other political nonsense that people point to is ridiculous. This is going to be a business decision pure and simple.

 

I think you need to change your user name.

 

I still think it's absolutely amazing that folks believe there aren't enough fans with money in yr area to buy PSLs.

 

When the Sabres made the EC finals 2 years in a row, 19,000 fans had zero trouble plunking down $250/game for 3 home games (and that was for 300 level tix); that's $750 for just one series.

 

Somehow, we believe these same fans cannot afford a $5,000 PSL if given (as is common) a multi year payment plan.

 

Let's remember also that the local economy is stronger now than it was in 06 and 07.

 

Why some fans are so hurried to paint the picture of doom and gloom is beyond me, especially when none of this matters if the new owner is one of the locally-interested parties.

 

In my mind, the math here is pretty simple:

 

$300M from PSLs + $300M from subsidies (spread out over a 30-year tax hit to go along with the lease term) + $200M from the owner = new stadium

 

I grew up in Buffalo, but I haven't lived there in decades. I have family and friends who still live in and around the city. My sense was that Buffalo was finally starting to come back. Nothing as bleak and despairing as some of the negative posters here assert. What I do know is that the Buffalo Bills play an almost unique part in the civic identity of the community. The Bills mean more to Buffalo than almost any other sports team does to a city. I really cannot imagine that there aren't plenty of folks willing to pay to keep the team in Western New York.

[Wayne Cubed]

I think some posters are confusing places like Dallas and NY who have PSL's as high as $150,000. Minnesota's new stadium will see PSL's at a maximum of $9,500(btw, those have sold out already in Minnesota) and as low as $500 for 47,500 seats. 80 percent of those will be below $3,000. The average price is $2,500 per seat.

 

I think that's probably the prices you'll see if/when Buffalo get's a new stadium and I don't see fans having any problem with paying it.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think some posters are confusing places like Dallas and NY who have PSL's as high as $150,000. Minnesota's new stadium will see PSL's at a maximum of $9,500(btw, those have sold out already in Minnesota) and as low as $500 for 47,500 seats. 80 percent of those will be below $3,000. The average price is $2,500 per seat.

 

I think that's probably the prices you'll see if/when Buffalo get's a new stadium and I don't see fans having any problem with paying it.

Good stuff as usual Wayne. Those are even lower than what I was expecting.

[HopefulFuture]

I think you need to change your user name.

 

 

 

I grew up in Buffalo, but I haven't lived there in decades. I have family and friends who still live in and around the city. My sense was that Buffalo was finally starting to come back. Nothing as bleak and despairing as some of the negative posters here assert. What I do know is that the Buffalo Bills play an almost unique part in the civic identity of the community. The Bills mean more to Buffalo than almost any other sports team does to a city. I really cannot imagine that there aren't plenty of folks willing to pay to keep the team in Western New York.

 

One can hope while still facing the realities of economics in the area.

 

To the bottom part of your response. As I've eluded to in other threads, opening up mom and pop light industrial industries doesn't replace the amassed middle and upper middle manufacturing jobs that were lost in this area short term, And that is what we are dealing with here, short term. The way I see it, a new owner doesn't have 2 or 3 generations of time to wait for the anticipated return of that lost area wealth.

 

I think some posters are confusing places like Dallas and NY who have PSL's as high as $150,000. Minnesota's new stadium will see PSL's at a maximum of $9,500(btw, those have sold out already in Minnesota) and as low as $500 for 47,500 seats. 80 percent of those will be below $3,000. The average price is $2,500 per seat.

 

I think that's probably the prices you'll see if/when Buffalo get's a new stadium and I don't see fans having any problem with paying it.

 

One variable I notice you've ommited from your post is the PSL pricing in other markets that currently are looking for an NFL team yet do not have one. Surely a new owner, and the other 31 owners will be looking to maximize those numbers. And I'm equally sure with inflation due to rear it's ugly head as the QE's come to an end and the free money dries up those prices will see more than a modest adjustment once the new realities of economics settle in.

[UpperDeck]

One can hope while still facing the realities of economics in the area.

 

To the bottom part of your response. As I've eluded to in other threads, opening up mom and pop light industrial industries doesn't replace the amassed middle and upper middle manufacturing jobs that were lost in this area short term, And that is what we are dealing with here, short term. The way I see it, a new owner doesn't have 2 or 3 generations of time to wait for the anticipated return of that lost area wealth.

 

 

 

One variable I notice you've ommited from your post is the PSL pricing in other markets that currently are looking for an NFL team yet do not have one. Surely a new owner, and the other 31 owners will be looking to maximize those numbers. And I'm equally sure with inflation due to rear it's ugly head as the QE's come to an end and the free money dries up those prices will see more than a modest adjustment once the new realities of economics settle in.

In case you haven't heard the Medical Corridor is expected to boom over the next 2 to 3 years, not generations. And those workers won't be making peanuts. Plus there's the Riverbend industries that will be moving in and Pegulaville will also generate more investment in downtown. So I think the 2 to 3 generation wait time is greatly exaggerated.

 

As to your inflation comment I think you should try reading an Econ 101 text. It's the QE's themselves that were supposed to create inflation, not the ending thereof. With a reduction of the influx of cash (i.e. ending QE's) you would expect the exact opposite of inflation if anything.

Edited June 1, 2014 by UpperDeck

[Ted William's frozen head]

They are coming. No offense to Polancarcz but the Bills have a much better sense for what the market will bare and understand the revenue streams infinitely more than he does. They will not all come from WNY IMO it will be about 1/2. Can WNYers pay $5000 one time for 30,000 seats? Can 15,000 people fork over a 1 time $10,000 payment for 2 seats (that they can resell)?

 

If that is impossible we need to stop talking about what a great fan base we have. We may be passionate but not great.

Passionate,and not rich, you mean. I'm heading towards the twilight of my working career. No way I'm ponying up $10K just for the right to buy tickets for my two seats.

[Wayne Cubed]

One variable I notice you've ommited from your post is the PSL pricing in other markets that currently are looking for an NFL team yet do not have one. Surely a new owner, and the other 31 owners will be looking to maximize those numbers. And I'm equally sure with inflation due to rear it's ugly head as the QE's come to an end and the free money dries up those prices will see more than a modest adjustment once the new realities of economics settle in.

 

Except PSL's aren't part of shared revenue. Ticket sales yes, PSL's no. So why would the other 31 teams care about maximizing PSL's in another city? PSL's are purely to offset the debt incurred when building a stadium. Making the people that use the stadium pay for some of it, not just the taxpayers, although they still end up paying some anyways. It's a one time fee for the team, once someone buys a PSL and 10 years later they decide to sell it they pocket the money, not the team. The team can't make anymore money on it, once they sell it, unless someone defaults on paying or something.

 

The 31 other owners care about TV revenue, ticket sales and merchandise, oh and probably the NFL brand. That's whats shared. They don't care if you do or don't use PSL's (Lucas Oil Field didn't use PSL's to pay debt). There are 17 other teams who don't use PSL's.