(Offseason)QB coach: EJ Manuel could be bound for Pro Bowl season

[Turbosrrgood]

I won't bore you with the details of my shoulder dislocations, multiple separations, the subsequently shredded ligaments that accompanied them other than to say they are the reasons why I had to be taught to throw all over again. I mean, what good am I to my beer league softball team if I can't make the throw from short to 1st, right?

 

What I learned leads me to believe that many of you talk about throwing mechanics like you have a clue but don't really know much about it. If you want to correct that - or if you want to learn 'sup with EJ - just read on...

 

In a proper throwing motion, about halfway through the elbow should be right around a half-foot in front. This ensures your arm is at the correct height and is referred to as the neutral position because there is virtually no stress on the muscles or joints. It's a position where the shoulder and elbow are at their safest and strongest as the elbow, wrist, and ball can continue through the throwing motion on a single plane. This allows for maximum power and maximum accuracy.

 

When, halfway through the throwing motion, the elbow is not far enough in front it means the arm is too low. And when that happens, the shoulder will seize up a little to prevent too much stress from being placed on it. And since it never achieves the neutral position, the shoulder twists causing the wrist to swing out past the elbow creating a sidearm throwing motion. This type of throwing motion compromises accuracy because the elbow, wrist, and ball are not moving on a single plane. And because the shoulder doesn't achieve neutral position, energy is used to compensate for the twisting in the shoulder instead of propelling the ball forward which compromises power.

 

If the elbow is too far in front, the arm is too high and, like before, the shoulder never reaches the neutral position. The elbow, wrist and ball move on different planes, and the shoulder never achieves neutral position. Like the sidearm throw, power and accuracy are compromised but it's actually worse because when the arm is too high, the ball has to be released from a higher position - and that means it's being released too soon in the throw and you lose A LOT of power.

 

Think of playing catch with your 6 year old nephew. Sure, you slow your arm speed, but you probably do more than that because you don't want to drill him with the ball and catch a lot of crap from your otherwise cool sister. Chances are you kind of put some air under it and float it to him so he has a chance to catch it. And whether you realize it or not, what you're actually doing is releasing the ball much earlier in the throw than you otherwise would.

 

And that's why EJ throws a lot of floaters on intermediate and deeper passes: He's carrying his elbow too high halfway through the throwing motion which robs him of accuracy and power, and he has to compensate for the elbow being too high by releasing it too soon and causing the ball to float or sail.

 

It could be due to excitement, pressure, tensing up to make a big play, gritting his teeth, whatever, but once he settles down and starts getting his elbow ti hit neutral halfway through the throwing motion (through repetition and muscle memory), sailing and floating those intermediate passes will go away.

 

And here's the bonus: On short passes his elbow achieves the neutral position, but because his muscle memory has him overcompensating for the lack of power on the intermediate passes, he tends to throw those too-powerful bullets. As he settles in and begins to hit neutral on the longer balls, his touch on shorter balls will improve dramatically.

 

Or we'll be looking for another QB in a year or two.

 

 

*drops mic

*walks off stage

 

So you are an expert in the field, just from having an injury? Or did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Edited May 16, 2014 by Turbosrrgood

[thebandit27]

Why this?..." I can handle "I'm not sold on him", I can get behind "he needs to improve"; the "hope I'm wrong" drives me bonkers."

 

the "hope I'm wrong" is an honest feeling. I don't have much faith in EJ...but I am a Bills fan...so..I hope I'm wrong!..Jeez

 

I probably shouldn't have fragmented "hope I'm wrong" in my final sentence...it's the "he sucks but I hope I'm wrong" that gets me. As I said to GG:

 

To me, it reads like "I don't want to get my hopes up" in lieu of an honest assessment. Why? Because IMO an honest assessment would take into account that it's 10 games as a rookie--simply saying "he sucks but I hope I'm wrong" is mentally preparing for failure while leaving a foot out the back door so that you're not "that guy" whose verbiage specifically dooms him to failure.

 

Just my opinion

[Kelly the Dog]

Why this?..." I can handle "I'm not sold on him", I can get behind "he needs to improve"; the "hope I'm wrong" drives me bonkers."

 

the "hope I'm wrong" is an honest feeling. I don't have much faith in EJ...but I am a Bills fan...so..I hope I'm wrong!..Jeez

Then hope he's wrong. Jeez.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

good one. I chuckled.

 

changing a QB's mechanics is always iffy.

 

lets hope this has a positive effect on EJ.

 

My hope is Fitz didn't buy into it and was too far down the road while EJ wants to be a probowler and will do anything to get there.

 

This is just my hope. No evidence, no basis. Just hope for best the during this time of year since that's the best part of being a bills fan.... This time of year!

[Kelly the Dog]

My hope is Fitz didn't buy into it and was too far down the road while EJ wants to be a probowler and will do anything to get there.

 

This is just my hope. No evidence, no basis. Just hope for best the during this time of year since that's the best part of being a bills fan.... This time of year!

Lee was really trying to do one thing in particular, fix Fitz while turning/throwing to his left. He wasnt trying to overhaul his throwing motion. I think people, Fitz included, thought that Lee could fix or at least help this, because he had a great rep as a QB coach, and because Fitz had the brainpower.

 

It backfired. Fitz regressed, and was pretty horrible the whole year. He just had a bad season, and that probably had at least a small part in it. Although I doubt it was a main reason.

[Jauronimo]

While most of the generalities that you're saying regarding throwing motion are true, I actually don't find many flaws with EJ's upper body mechanics. His tendency to over-pronate and under-supinate is more rare than you're leading on here, and is far less of a concern to me than his lower body. I actually find his viper coil and release to be extremely efficient (not Brees or Rodgers efficient, but hey, he's a rookie); his long stride and shuffling of his feet are--IMO--the biggest deficiency.

Yes its important to get your pronate checked regularly for spots, but I don't see what that has to do with EJ's throwing motion. He's hardly of the age where that would even be a concern, and unless hes getting his pronate checked vigorously before games I don't think it would effect his mechanics.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Jauronimo

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

Lee was really trying to do one thing in particular, fix Fitz while turning/throwing to his left. He wasnt trying to overhaul his throwing motion. I think people, Fitz included, thought that Lee could fix or at least help this, because he had a great rep as a QB coach, and because Fitz had the brainpower.

 

It backfired. Fitz regressed, and was pretty horrible the whole year. He just had a bad season, and that probably had at least a small part in it. Although I doubt it was a main reason.

 

I also don't recall reports of Fitz working on it in the offseason. I remember him saying he typically didn't throw much in the off season with exception of inviting the guys to AZ for a week.

 

I liked him but I think it takes some serious daily off season work to get mechanics tweaked. I watched specials about Brady doing this sort of stuff with his own QB coach in the offseasons early on in his career and obviously accuracy and mechanics for him appear flawless much of the time.

[GG]

Yes its important to get your pronate checked regularly for spots, but I don't see what that has to do with EJ's throwing motion. He's hardly of the age where that would even be a concern, and unless hes getting his pronate checked vigorously before games I don't think it would effect his mechanics.

 

There's a Michael Sam joke in there just dying to get out

[Campy]

So you are an expert in the field, just from having an injury? Or did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

 

Interesting you should ask. I'm no expert, but I did learn from one. And by my estimation, he has about 10+ more years worth of knowledge and experience than anybody on this board. And here's a little more of his knowledge getting dropped:

 

Throws aren't made using feet, therefore, the arm's motion is what's most important. Once the arm is hitting that neutral position halfway through a throw, the throwing motion is fluid and the feet take care of themselves instinctively since the lower body will no longer have to make dramatic adjustments to maintain stability and/or compensate for less power.

 

And please accept my apologies in advance for not arguing or debating it with anyone. The simple reality is that, on this topic, I value the opinion of the guy who coached throwing for a living and has nearly a dozen years of credibility behind him more than I do any poster's.

[Jauronimo]

Interesting you should ask. I'm no expert, but I did learn from one. And by my estimation, he has about 10+ more years worth of knowledge and experience than anybody on this board. And here's a little more of his knowledge getting dropped:

 

Throws aren't made using feet, therefore, the arm's motion is what's most important. Once the arm is hitting that neutral position halfway through a throw, the throwing motion is fluid and the feet take care of themselves instinctively since the lower body will no longer have to make dramatic adjustments to maintain stability and/or compensate for less power.

 

And please accept my apologies in advance for not arguing or debating it with anyone. The simple reality is that, on this topic, I value the opinion of the guy who coached throwing for a living and has nearly a dozen years of credibility behind him more than I do any poster's.

Just like the roof is the most important part of a structure.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Just like the roof is the most important part of a structure.

In Buffalo, there's an argument to be made for that.

[K-9]

Interesting you should ask. I'm no expert, but I did learn from one. And by my estimation, he has about 10+ more years worth of knowledge and experience than anybody on this board. And here's a little more of his knowledge getting dropped:

 

Throws aren't made using feet, therefore, the arm's motion is what's most important. Once the arm is hitting that neutral position halfway through a throw, the throwing motion is fluid and the feet take care of themselves instinctively since the lower body will no longer have to make dramatic adjustments to maintain stability and/or compensate for less power.

 

And please accept my apologies in advance for not arguing or debating it with anyone. The simple reality is that, on this topic, I value the opinion of the guy who coached throwing for a living and has nearly a dozen years of credibility behind him more than I do any poster's.

 

 

Not true at all. I'm surprised by this comment. You throw off your back foot, the ball is gonna sail. You don't have proper lower body mechanics, you're gonna be inaccurate. Can't launch rockets from unstable platforms. It ALL starts with establishing a proper base and footwork is key.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Iraq Vet]

I am not going to get excited about "hope and change" for the Buffalo Bills Quarterbacks until I see results.

 

Can someone please list all of the heir apparent QB's since Kelly. I lost track.....Didn't we pin hopes on Brian Brohm or that crazy undrafted trick shot QB.... I remember some "gun rack" guy that had a monster arm but never read the playbook... I could have sworn we had Matt Lienhart for a week. I often wonder how many playoff games would we have been to if we stayed with Todd Collins. The good news is every QB that has failed here ended up failing elsewhere... so we are not missing out. Our failed QB's did the right thing and stayed as a failed QB.

 

I bet we have had 30 QB's on this roster since Kelly retired. Most never saw game action... But the list has to be huge. I mean... do you realize we have D. Dixon as a QB on the roster right now. Who the heck is D. Dixon? And how soon before he starts his career as a high school coach or selling insurance?

 

My goodness this is depressing... and it turns out we contacted that fat Ex-Raider QB last year before the draft... yeah that guy, the one who ate his way out of the league!

 

Edited May 16, 2014 by Iraq Vet

[Dibs]

........

 

It's funny...I've never met a "realist" that is a positive person.

 

Hi. My name is Dibs and I'm a realist who is also a positive person. Nice to meet you.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Hi. My name is Dibs and I'm a realist who is also a positive person. Nice to meet you.

That is blatant true negativism disguised as faux optimism by a pseudo realist masquerading as an optimist cloaking anti-realism.

[BobbyC81]

Remember when Bill Walsh told us Trent Edwards was good...this is next to useless information

 

And when Sam Wyche was brought in to work one-on-one with JP Losman.

[voodoo poonani]

I think 14 years without playoffs is pitting fans against each other.

 

We all love the Bills. Can't we all just get along?

[Campy]

Not true at all. I'm surprised by this comment. You throw off your back foot, the ball is gonna sail. You don't have proper lower body mechanics, you're gonna be inaccurate. Can't launch rockets from unstable platforms. It ALL starts with establishing a proper base and footwork is key.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I follow what you're saying, and I'm not arguing against it, only trying to clarify/expand upon.

 

What I learned (and am probably not communicating very well) is that when the arm hits that neutral position, it's very difficult to not have established a proper base, to not turn your hips, and to not properly step into the throw because the lower body instinctively does so as you move through the neutral position.

 

That's not to say you can't throw off your back foot when moving through neutral, only that it is very difficult to do and feels unnatural. In other words, instead of focussing on ten different things when throwing, focus on the arm achieving neutral position halfway through and the rest will follow.

[dave mcbride]

Just like the roof is the most important part of a structure.

 

My son has taken years of pitching lessons from a well regarded and excellent instructor, and while the legs are certainly important, Campy is absolutely right about the throwing motion -- especially with regard to what causes injuries. Throwing across your body rather than striving for maintaining a vertical up-down plane on your throws is bad for both your shoulder and your elbow.

[Campy]

Just like the roof is the most important part of a structure.

 

Rapier-like wit aside, you're actually not too far off in your not terribly analogous analogy. A structure can be built on bare ground with no foundation, but it is the roof trusses that hold the walls up and keeps the structure intact.