Campy Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 While most of the generalities that you're saying regarding throwing motion are true, I actually don't find many flaws with EJ's upper body mechanics. His tendency to over-pronate and under-supinate is more rare than you're leading on here, and is far less of a concern to me than his lower body. I actually find his viper coil and release to be extremely efficient (not Brees or Rodgers efficient, but hey, he's a rookie); his long stride and shuffling of his feet are--IMO--the biggest deficiency. All QBs pronate or supinate intentionally as the situation calls for it. It's not that big of a deal not did I imply it was, but it does rob power from throws. It's why a breaking pitch isn't as fast as a fastball - simple physics at work. Those "generalities" I referred to discuss the bio-mechanically correct and incorrect way to throw an object with maximum power and accuracy. And while you may not see flaws, bio-mechanics tells us what you're not seeing: his elbow is too high halfway through the throwing motion. And once that is corrected, the balls will not sail unless he intentionally releases it early to get air under it. It's simple; there's no need to overcomplicate it with made up terms like "viper coil."
thebandit27 Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 All QBs pronate or supinate intentionally as the situation calls for it. It's not that big of a deal not did I imply it was, but it does rob power from throws. It's why a breaking pitch isn't as fast as a fastball - simple physics at work. Those "generalities" I referred to discuss the bio-mechanically correct and incorrect way to throw an object with maximum power and accuracy. And while you may not see flaws, bio-mechanics tells us what you're not seeing: his elbow is too high halfway through the throwing motion. And once that is corrected, the balls will not sail unless he intentionally releases it early to get air under it. It's simple; there's no need to overcomplicate it with made up terms like "viper coil." It's not a made-up term...it simply refers to keeping the upper body compact and still (coiled) prior to the strike (throw), but thanks for the tip. Not that you should care about my credentials, but I can assure you that the world of physics is no mystery to me. What you described with his throwing motion was an inefficiency due to his elbow and wrist position (pronating and supinating), and yes, you did imply that it was a big deal by saying this: And that's why EJ throws a lot of floaters on intermediate and deeper passes: He's carrying his elbow too high halfway through the throwing motion which robs him of accuracy and power, and he has to compensate for the elbow being too high by releasing it too soon and causing the ball to float or sail. Throwing a lot of floaters in the NFL is not a small things...fortunately, you over-stated it and he doesn't do what you're claiming he does as often as you seem to imply he does it. I also find it interesting that you somehow believe that biomechanics are telling you something that they aren't telling the rest of us...I'm not so sure you're as on target with your assessment as you believe you are, but hey, I tend to just make stuff up apparently. Don't forget your mic this time.
Campy Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 It's not a made-up term...it simply refers to keeping the upper body compact and still (coiled) prior to the strike (throw), but thanks for the tip. Not that you should care about my credentials, but I can assure you that the world of physics is no mystery to me. What you described with his throwing motion was an inefficiency due to his elbow and wrist position (pronating and supinating), and yes, you did imply that it was a big deal by saying this: Throwing a lot of floaters in the NFL is not a small things...fortunately, you over-stated it and he doesn't do what you're claiming he does as often as you seem to imply he does it. I also find it interesting that you somehow believe that biomechanics are telling you something that they aren't telling the rest of us...I'm not so sure you're as on target with your assessment as you believe you are, but hey, I tend to just make stuff up apparently. Don't forget your mic this time. We can agree to disagree, it's cool.
Dirtbag Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 He is far more phisicly gifted than Shitzpatrick or looserman no duh. their viper coils sucked ass.
Nanker Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I'm cheering for Manuel. I hope he plays a full season. Honestly, is there anyone here that doesn't want to see Manuel succeed? Oh, most definitely there are - and a lot of them too. They ooze hatred for him. They despise him and the fact that he's the QB of The Bills.
eball Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Oh, most definitely there are - and a lot of them too. They ooze hatred for him. They despise him and the fact that he's the QB of The Bills. I hope not. I want to believe the naysayers are really just exhibiting defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the fear of more ineptness at the QB position. How can you claim to be a fan of the Bills and not root for the QB?
Rivermont Mike Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I hope not. I want to believe the naysayers are really just exhibiting defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the fear of more ineptness at the QB position. How can you claim to be a fan of the Bills and not root for the QB? Yeah, but the naysayers are throwing around terms such as "viper coil," "pronate," and "biomechanics," so it must be true that EJ sucks, right? It's just the bunch that wants to hang on to future draft picks like a squirrel stuffing acorns in its cheeks before the winter. They are bitter that the Bills would actually try to support their QB with some weapons. F that. He's our QB and that's not going to change for a while. Go Bills!
thebandit27 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Yeah, but the naysayers are throwing around terms such as "viper coil," "pronate," and "biomechanics," so it must be true that EJ sucks, right? It's just the bunch that wants to hang on to future draft picks like a squirrel stuffing acorns in its cheeks before the winter. They are bitter that the Bills would actually try to support their QB with some weapons. F that. He's our QB and that's not going to change for a while. Go Bills! Just want to say 2 things: 1) thanks for the shout out 2) I love how just because I engaged in a discussion about mechanics I'm somehow a naysayer...if you read ANY of my posts regarding EJ I've repeatedly said that I am confident he'll develop into a solid QB for this team. I hope not. I want to believe the naysayers are really just exhibiting defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the fear of more ineptness at the QB position. How can you claim to be a fan of the Bills and not root for the QB? What kills me is the "I hope I'm wrong but he sucks" crowd...talk about playing both sides of the table. I can handle "I'm not sold on him", I can get behind "he needs to improve"; the "hope I'm wrong" drives me bonkers.
bobobonators Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Typical nonsensical football article in May. Why not just say EJ Manuel could be bound for solid season. No, he has to be bound for pro bowl. I'd take him being able to play 5 consecutive games without blowing out a knee.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I hope not. I want to believe the naysayers are really just exhibiting defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the fear of more ineptness at the QB position. How can you claim to be a fan of the Bills and not root for the QB? This is true. Naysaying is ALWAYS the safer bet. Always. GO BILLS!!!
GG Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I can handle "I'm not sold on him", I can get behind "he needs to improve"; the "hope I'm wrong" drives me bonkers. I don't see why that drives you nuts. These guys made their analysis and they don't think EJ can turn the corner. But as Bills fans, they hope that he proves them wrong.
Campy Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Yeah, but the naysayers are throwing around terms such as "viper coil," "pronate," and "biomechanics," so it must be true that EJ sucks, right? It's just the bunch that wants to hang on to future draft picks like a squirrel stuffing acorns in its cheeks before the winter. They are bitter that the Bills would actually try to support their QB with some weapons. F that. He's our QB and that's not going to change for a while. Go Bills! As somebody who referred to biomechanics in a post and responded to another that included viper coil, pronate, and supinate, don't assume that I am a naysayer. In fact, I'm about as far from being a naysayer as it gets. I've wanted EJ to be a part of this team since he was in 9th grade and told me he was a Bills fan.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 There are two diametrically opposed kinds of bad mechanics in QBs and the NFL. 1) Guys with basically good or very good mechanics for the most part, or when they don't panic, who just tend to lose them in the heat of battle too often. 2) Guys with crappy mechanics who can still throw a decent ball when things go right for them. EJ is the first type. Fitz is the second type. It's much harder and often almost impossible to teach type two guys to retain better mechanics because they either developed bad habits they cannot break, or in Fitz's case and a lot of other guys, they don't have the physical tools to get off consistently good NFL worthy passes with what would be good mechanics. Fitz has to wind up and throw it as hard as he can like a baseball pitcher. EJ has good mechanics for the most part and they can definitely be fine tuned. What he needs to be shown, is to not lose those good mechanics so often, or while turning and looking for new receivers or while the heat starts to come, etc. That is what his QB guru is trying to fix. He can plant and throw, he just doesn't always plant and throw. Some guys that is tough to coach out of, too. Interesting take here and I agree entirely. What you describe as "panic" is the main cause for mechanics to break down and something we've all seen EJ do on several occasions. Not rushing the play comes with experience more than anything else; when QBs mature to the point of trusting what they see and what they anticipate will happen. When they can take an extra second to slide around, find a lane, and take the time to set and/or re-set. A question of confidence, really. What gives me confidence in EJ moving forward is that he was at his best during the most hectic times in a game, when he was running a two-minute offense. Additionally, he and Hackett showed ability to make halftime adjustments which tells me he can see what defenses are trying to do and can find ways to counter. He also showed an ability to overcome poor starts (Jags game is best example), and that tells me a lot about his mindset, perhaps the most important aspect of being a QB, as this impacts teammates a lot. Show me a QB that hangs his head or gets frustrated (JP, anyone?) when things don't go right and it isn't long before things unravel on the sidelines. GO BILLS!!!
thebandit27 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I don't see why that drives you nuts. These guys made their analysis and they don't think EJ can turn the corner. But as Bills fans, they hope that he proves them wrong. To me, it reads like "I don't want to get my hopes up" in lieu of an honest assessment. Why? Because IMO an honest assessment would take into account that it's 10 games as a rookie--simply saying "he sucks but I hope I'm wrong" is mentally preparing for failure while leaving a foot out the back door so that you're not "that guy" whose verbiage specifically dooms him to failure. Just my opinion
mattsox Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Remember when Bill Walsh told us Trent Edwards was good...this is next to useless information Exactly. Let me know when we're 8-0 at half way point next season and then I'll BILLIEVE in him.
The Wiz Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 To me, it reads like "I don't want to get my hopes up" in lieu of an honest assessment. Why? Because IMO an honest assessment would take into account that it's 10 games as a rookie--simply saying "he sucks but I hope I'm wrong" is mentally preparing for failure while leaving a foot out the back door so that you're not "that guy" whose verbiage specifically dooms him to failure. Just my opinion I will go on record saying that I think EJ will be good and hope he proves me right.
GG Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 To me, it reads like "I don't want to get my hopes up" in lieu of an honest assessment. Why? Because IMO an honest assessment would take into account that it's 10 games as a rookie--simply saying "he sucks but I hope I'm wrong" is mentally preparing for failure while leaving a foot out the back door so that you're not "that guy" whose verbiage specifically dooms him to failure. Just my opinion I haven't really seen much of that. What has been discussed a lot by the non-optimists is that while EJ obviously has a boat load of talent and has a huge ceiling, there hasn't been an improvement since his college days, when the same criticisms stood out about his game. I think we all understand that with 1/2 of preseason and only 10 regular season games is not enough body of work to truly gauge him. But the legitimate concern is that he did not progress enough in the opportunities that he had. And now that Whaley bet the next two years on EJ's progress, that risk is even more magnified. I think everyone wants him to succeed and have his development mirror Jim Kelly and not JP Losman or Vince Young. There were many stories about the latter (Losman especially) about all the offseason training and coaching they were going through to correct flaws. But in the end, the bad instincts won out. That's why there's prevailing negativity about EJ's potential. Ne needs to overcome a lot of bad habits to become a bonafide NFL starter. The history of Bills & NFL is against him. But let's hope he beats the odds.
thebandit27 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I haven't really seen much of that. What has been discussed a lot by the non-optimists is that while EJ obviously has a boat load of talent and has a huge ceiling, there hasn't been an improvement since his college days, when the same criticisms stood out about his game. I think we all understand that with 1/2 of preseason and only 10 regular season games is not enough body of work to truly gauge him. But the legitimate concern is that he did not progress enough in the opportunities that he had. And now that Whaley bet the next two years on EJ's progress, that risk is even more magnified. I think everyone wants him to succeed and have his development mirror Jim Kelly and not JP Losman or Vince Young. There were many stories about the latter (Losman especially) about all the offseason training and coaching they were going through to correct flaws. But in the end, the bad instincts won out. That's why there's prevailing negativity about EJ's potential. Ne needs to overcome a lot of bad habits to become a bonafide NFL starter. The history of Bills & NFL is against him. But let's hope he beats the odds. Although I disagree with the extent of bad habits he needs to overcome, I have zero problem with the take as you state it here.
Kemp2Warlick Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Why this?..." I can handle "I'm not sold on him", I can get behind "he needs to improve"; the "hope I'm wrong" drives me bonkers." the "hope I'm wrong" is an honest feeling. I don't have much faith in EJ...but I am a Bills fan...so..I hope I'm wrong!..Jeez
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