CountryCletus Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 And again, this concept is used to deflect the value of his "yards per carry" since he doesn't steadily earn 4.6 yards each time he touches the ball. I understand most backs don't, but CJ (as the charts above indicate) really does have top-heavy gains which skew how his production looks on paper. What he said! I don't do fancy charts... But I can sure appreciate them!
The Big Cat Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) Wow, you need to get some. Just kidding and appreciate the work. Here's my problem with that and why I defend guys like Spiller and Stevie Johnson (though they are very different players because CJ has more natural talent). Of those guys you listed, Spiller played with the worst oline and worst QBs. It's not mutually exclusive. Spiller won't be a better player with a running threat like RG3? Spiller won't be better behind a very good KC oline? Spiller couldn't put up monster #s in Philly's system behind maybe the best oline in football? And he still averaged 4.6! For some reason, some Bills fans like to put down their good players. Stevie Johnson wasn't Calvin Johnson but he'd be a good #2 and a great #3. IMO, Spiller is a top 5 explosive player in this league. But he plays on a group that hasn't been that good. Chris Johnson averaged 3.9 ypc playing with Fitz. Spiller averaged 6 ypc. He's a damn good player and hopefully with a better oline and a real downfield passing game, things will be opened up quite a bit. pro-football-reference.com makes it really simple to organize data like this. as for the holistic perspective on CJ's struggles, I can't go along with that. But, it does let him off the hook for the plays where he--and he alone--could have done much better to produce. EDIT: no there's an important edit, if ever there was one! Edited May 15, 2014 by The Big Cat
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 pro-football-reference.com makes it really simple to organize data like this. as for the holistic perspective on CJ's struggles, I can't go along with that. But, it does let him off the hook for the plays where he--and he alone--could have done much better to produce. Honest question. Rank the running backs you compared with Spiller in 2 categories based on last year: offensive line and QBs (including Spiller).
The Big Cat Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 Honest question. Rank the running backs you compared with Spiller in 2 categories based on last year: offensive line and QBs (including Spiller). Without looking at the numbers Offensive Line: Chiefs Eagles T-Bills/Redskins Bears Quarterback (passing attack) Eagles Bears T-Redskins/Chiefs Bills (not that far behind) Also, in the prior post, I meant to say i CAN go along with that.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 Without looking at the numbers Offensive Line: Chiefs Eagles T-Bills/Redskins Bears Quarterback (passing attack) Eagles Bears T-Redskins/Chiefs Bills (not that far behind) Also, in the prior post, I meant to say i CAN go along with that. I think the Bears had a pretty good oline last year and should be ahead of the Bills. But my point remains. Spiller did pretty well considering he had an injury and probably had the worse combination of QB and oline of the backs you mention. Football is still the ultimate team game and Spiller last year didn't have a great group around him.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 Hackett did i brutal job last year. Thus his mentor and HC brought in a QB coach and a quality control coach for the offense. Basically they just put training wheels on Hackett. This is the year for CJ to shine for many reasons. Mostly because he wants to get paid. This is the one and only big pay day for a RB, usually. Makes perfect sense why the Bills wanted Hyde.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 In hackett's defense, he spent half his time just getting his rookie or new quartberbacks to just learn the plays and get used to new guys surrounding them every week. No one should have to learn on the job with what he had to. He had to dumb down the game plans and play book dramatically.
HeHateMe Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) Spiller can be a dynamic back. He was injured last year and reverted back to his poor decision making quite a bit. Hackett did him no favors with terrible play calling. Predictable runs up the middle. No lining up outside or short passes. If he can just avoid the number of zero or negative rushes, he would be elite. Instead of taking 3-4 yards, he bounces outside for zero. It works once every 30 times but those other 29 rushes put the team and young QB behind the 8-ball. Edited May 15, 2014 by kobe808lak
The Big Cat Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 It's a shame OBD didn't consult TBD when picking their offensive playcallers. A lot of seasoned experts here.
Ramius Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 Spiller can be a dynamic back. He was injured last year and reverted back to his poor decision making quite a bit. Hackett did him no favors with terrible play calling. Predictable runs up the middle. No lining up outside or short passes. If he can just avoid the number of zero or negative rushes, he would be elite. Instead of taking 3-4 yards, he bounces outside for zero. It works once every 30 times but those other 29 rushes put the team and young QB behind the 8-ball. I tihnk you nailed it with this post. Excellent. I'm still trying to figure out and why Big Cat is trying to spin a large number of long rushes by Spiller into a negative.
The Big Cat Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 I tihnk you nailed it with this post. Excellent. I'm still trying to figure out and why Big Cat is trying to spin a large number of long rushes by Spiller into a negative. I'm not.
truth on hold Posted May 15, 2014 Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) What he said! I don't do fancy charts... But I can sure appreciate them! The issue w/ CJ is that he's not quite bad enough @ RB to commit him to a situational all-purpose role @RB, WR and KR. But OTOH he's not quite good enough to be a #1 RB. So he's just kind of stuck in this no-man's land. Edited May 15, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack
Nanker Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Well, if Joe Montana had a fire lit under his azz by Bill Walsh drafting Steve Young, then I guess a guy like CJ - who has proved a significant amount less in his career than Joe did at that point - should be on notice that he's got a lot of hauling to do. The gauntlet is thrown down. I love CJ. He's a great young man, but The Bills have got to produce, and he's got to shoulder a significant part of the load or else... he'll be gone.
MDH Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Wow, you need to get some. Just kidding and appreciate the work. Of those guys you listed, Spiller played with the worst oline and worst QBs. It's not mutually exclusive. Spiller won't be a better player with a running threat like RG3? Spiller won't be better behind a very good KC oline? Spiller couldn't put up monster #s in Philly's system behind maybe the best oline in football? And he still averaged 4.6! The problem with this arguement is Freddie doesn't get caught with all those <2 yard runs. So I find it hard to fault the OL as the primary culprit.
BuffaloFan68 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 CJ is a great talent and I'm glad we have him. I just hope the coaching staff can better utilize his talent. With all of the new talent on Offense it seems that the spread might be a good way to go.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 In hackett's defense, he spent half his time just getting his rookie or new quartberbacks to just learn the plays and get used to new guys surrounding them every week. No one should have to learn on the job with what he had to. He had to dumb down the game plans and play book dramatically. I agree that Marrone put him in a bad position. Thinking a guy with little to no NFL coaching experience could handle OC and QB coach was a big over sight by Marrone
YoloinOhio Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I agree that Marrone put him in a bad position. Thinking a guy with little to no NFL coaching experience could handle OC and QB coach was a big over sight by Marrone Whaley should also be held accountable, IMO, even if Marrone convinced him it would work
Kelly the Dog Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I agree that Marrone put him in a bad position. Thinking a guy with little to no NFL coaching experience could handle OC and QB coach was a big over sight by Marrone Of all the things that went wrong, and there were many, that to me was the very least of them. It was unavoidable that Marrone and Hackett were first time coaches in their positions, so they had to learn on the job. That was the biggest factor. The second biggest, partly Whaley and Marrone's fault, was signing Kolb, and then watching him get hurt twice as well as beat out by EJ in training camp. Then EJ hurt was the next biggest issue, along with Tuel and Thad. Add in the RB injuries and WR injuries, etc. A QB coach, IMO, wouldn't have really helped any of that. The injuries (mostly to EJ) and the fact that they were new at their job (as well as Hackett being really young), doomed the season.
San-O Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Spiller, not Hackett, was responsible for his regression. Sorry, but you're flat out wrong. Could NOT disagree more. If nothing else, Chan used Spiller to perfection IMO, and Hackett just seems to have him slam up in between the tackles. What the heck is that???
The Big Cat Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Could NOT disagree more. If nothing else, Chan used Spiller to perfection IMO, and Hackett just seems to have him slam up in between the tackles. What the heck is that??? Perfection? So if I were to search any of your posts in 2012, none of them contain complaints about how Spiller was under utilized in Chan's offense? I seem to recall that never ending (justifiable) chorus in Bills Nation.
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