FWIW Bill Polian wasn't too keen on part of our draft.

[RuntheDamnBall]

It's real easy to get on a high horse when you luck into HOF QBs. The Carolina job stands out as the one where Polian may have done the most impressive work.

 

Not belittling the man or his achievements, but come on.

[bills_believer]

What I have read, most people think the Bills gave up too much to get Watkins.It seems to me like Marrone is hell bent on proving that he made the right choice in drafting EJ last year.

 

Does it matter what Poian and other analysts think about our draft? I used to believe whatever spin the Bills' front office put on their drafts, trades, etc., but somewhere along this playoff drought, I stopped drinking the kool-aid and began listening more to outside analysts even when they were saying things I didn't want to hear.

 

They did give up too much for Watkins and it has been foolish not to invest in a viable back up for EJ.

[KOKBILLS]

BP is admittedly conservative and would not have endorsed that deal. I understand he did not even have Gronkowski on their draft board due to concerns with his back - a guy like our troubled OT from the U would similarly never have made his... In the end, we swung for the fences and hopefully we get a couple of runs...

 

I watched the replay of the later rounds on ESPN and he was obviously not OK with the Henderson pick either...

 

That being said...I was not in favor of giving up the 1st either...But I disagree with Polian writing it off like it can't have a similar effect to the Bennett trade...I think Polian is falling in line with most other analysts who are looking at this Bills team and assuming they are not very good...And that they can't get very good quickly if everything falls in line...I really don't see his logic as far as the Bennett trade comparison...And I'm not even saying Watkins will have a similar effect...But I am saying there is no reason why he can't have a similar effect at this point...The truth is the Bills were coming off a 4-12 season when they made the Bennett trade...This Bills team is coming off a 6-10 season...That Bills team had a very nice core set of players already in place...So does this one...But more than anything, that 1987 class, not just Biscuit, is what helped the Bills take a HUGE leap towards becoming the team they would eventually become...That 87 class was beyond impressive...It brought Biscuit, Conlan, Odomes, Mueller, Leon Seals, McKeller, and House Ballard...Even without Biscuit that was a hell of a good haul for one Draft...So yes...Getting Biscuit was huge...He's my favorite Bills player of all time...But it took a heck of a lot more to build that incredible roster...

 

So lets just say this Draft brings us a star WR in Watkins, a Pro Bowl caliber RT in Kouandjio, and a Pro Bowl caliber OG in Richardson, along with a solid Nickel DB in Cockrell, a 4th LB in Preston Brown, a solid rotation RB and eventual replacement for Freddie in Bryce Brown, and a #2 WR in Williams...That's a potential major step towards being a good team...Right? So maybe the Watkins trade does end up being the catalyst for future success because the Bills are building a very solid roster...Maybe?

 

The main question is obvious...Can EJ grow into at least a fraction of the leader on and off the field that Jimbo was?...That's really going to be the big question...Because even with the Bennett trade, like Polian admitted, the Bills needed to get that final piece (which was TT) to grow into a Championship team even after trading for Biscuit and having a roster that was becoming loaded...So what he's basically saying is they needed a little luck too...I'm sure this Bills team will need something like that to happen...Like maybe Bryce Brown turns into something really, really special for a few years...But I really don't see why this trade can't be the exact same type of boost to the Bills as the Biscuit trade was...I can also see how it can potential backfire as well...Nobody really knows...Including Polian...

[Dragonborn10]

BP is the best thing to ever happen to the Bills but he left the cupboard so bare that one injury to his team's QB and they went from SB contender to 2-14.

[Rubes]

1987 was 27 years ago and the NFL was a completely different game. Comparing personnel decisions made before the cap and after is not appropriate for the discussion. I get that people here want to run down anyone who doesn't high five the Bills draft, but Polian's legacy is settled and he'll be in Canton one day. Back then, the Bills didn't have any other method (and I believe it was before even Plan B FA) to acquire players.

 

Besides, as others have noted, BP knew he had a QB, a premier DE and a lot of other outstanding players in an era which wasn't as pass happy.

 

I don't think it's particularly fair to lump my critique in with the knee-jerk "run down anyone who doesn't high five the Bills draft" reaction, either. I have absolute respect for Polian and his body of work, and I'm definitely not one of those that believes the game has passed him by, by any means.

 

I also don't buy the argument that you can't compare personnel decisions from the late 80s with today. Teams were constructed differently, sure. But like you say, back then the draft was the #1 way of acquiring players and filling out a team, other than trades. So in that situation, draft picks -- especially high draft picks -- were extremely valuable. Nowadays, if you don't have a #1 pick, you can always try your luck acquiring a great player via free agency.

 

But to me, this just shows that trading away your #1 and #2 picks the following year, plus your #1 the year after that, was a huge gamble, moreso than the Watkins trade.

 

And yes, he did have a franchise QB. But let's not forget that, in early 1987, Bruce still had not fully lived up to his billing as a #1 overall pick. And as mentioned, this was a team that had gone 4-12 the year before. There was a lot of young talent on that team, but much of it was still unproven at that time. This was still a team very much in rebuilding mode, not a team that most believed was one impact LB away from the big dance.

[John from Riverside]

I have a lot of respect for Polian.....

 

That said....its a passing league even more then it was in Polians time.......

 

- Yes...they are banking on EJ Manuel being the QB that they need.....and not having the 1st next year is concerning from that stand point....but the fact of the matter is we probably will not be picking high enough in the 1st round anyway to even USE that 1st round pick on a QB...AND....they are not going to give up on EJ Manuel after next year nor should they unless he shows another injury riddled season

 

- What you are doing is using yoru 1st round pick on a once over 6 years or so wide reciever......you are saying "Hey EJ....we are giving you a blue chip wide out, more weapons, and improved protection...no take the next step son"

[Kelly the Dog]

Thurman ended up in the second round because teams were concereabout his knee injuries. Glad BP didn't flinch then.

Similar to Kujo actually, although not entirely the same. Thurman has a knee injury two years before the draft. He played basically two entire seasons after his injury, including his senior season when he had 250+ carries for 1600+ yards.

[KOKBILLS]

Similar to Kujo actually, although not entirely the same. Thurman has a knee injury two years before the draft. He played basically two entire seasons after his injury, including his senior season when he had 250+ carries for 1600+ yards.

 

I thought it was basically the same...Kouandjio was cleared to play after his surgery for Spring Practice in 2012...He played every game since and did not miss a practice either...That's the 2012 and 2013 seasons...Two full seasons...

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24470778/dr-james-andrews-says-no-issues-with-cyrus-kouandjios-knee

[Kelly the Dog]

I thought it was basically the same...Kouandjio was cleared to play after his surgery for Spring Practice in 2012...He played every game since and did not miss a practice either...That's the 2012 and 2013 seasons...Two full seasons...

 

http://www.cbssports...kouandjios-knee

In that respect, yes, it was a lot similar. I was referring to the fact that, I think, Kujo actually had surgery on it, and that I don't even think Thurman ever had surgery but I'm not sure. So teams were somewhat worried about them for different reasons, although it was about a knee injury two years before.

 

One article I read said Thurman failed the first Bills physical, and the team even went as far as say, if he hurts it again, we'll just do the surgery on him. They wanted him that bad, and look what happened.

[satchy]

gentlemen, be nice. Its only a couple days after the draft and we are all a little giddy.

 

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/verbatim

 

Thank you

[thewildrabbit]

I don't buy his argument about Bennett.

 

If you think about it, the trade occurred in 1987, right after the players' strike ended. The year before (1986), the Bills went 4-12. At the time of the trade, the Bills were 3-3. There was definitely a sense that the Bills were on the rise, but it's not like they were a player away or anything. They still had a lot of team needs, and Polian still mortgaged the future -- remember, that was a player in exchange for the following year's #1 and #2, and the year after that's #1. That's huge, much larger than this one. For a team that just came off a 4-12 campaign.

Not if you watched Bennett play in college at Alabama, as I loved watching him along with Derrick Thomas. I was so very disappointed on draft day when Bennett was drafted by the division rival Colts #2 overall. Man that 86 Bama defense was awesome.

 

I loved every bit of taking Bennett away from the Colts and sticking it to them. Trust me, Robert Irsay crapped his pants when he saw where Bennett ended up.

 

Anyway, that trade occurred in Oct of 87 just before the trade deadline. I remember that 87 team as they had just drafted Shane Conlan, and had Talley on the outside, same side as Bruce Smith. They really didn't have an offsetting rusher from the other side at that time. Conlan started outside, and moved inside once Biscuit got there. Once they plugged in Bennett, and he settled in the defense got a whole lot better.

 

I was at the Miami game Sun Nov 29th, 1987 and the Bills beat the Dolphins 27-0. The phins benched Marino that game after 3 INT's, and Miami didn't cross the 50 yard line all game until late in the 4th quarter after Don Strock took over. He drove them down to the Bills 20 where he promptly threw an INT in the endzone. What a great game, and you could easily see what an impact Bennett had on that team.

 

In 1988 12-4, they were #3 in points allowed, and #4 in yards allowed. Think about where Buffalo was drafting after 87.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...-for-bills.html

 

 

So lets just say this Draft brings us a star WR in Watkins, a Pro Bowl caliber RT in Kouandjio, and a Pro Bowl caliber OG in Richardson, along with a solid Nickel DB in Cockrell, a 4th LB in Preston Brown, a solid rotation RB and eventual replacement for Freddie in Bryce Brown, and a #2 WR in Williams...That's a potential major step towards being a good team...Right? So maybe the Watkins trade does end up being the catalyst for future success because the Bills are building a very solid roster...Maybe?

 

Jeez, I'd be happy with a decent solid starter that doesn't get pushed into the backfield every other play.

Edited May 13, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[bbb]

I was at the Miami game Sun Nov 29th, 1987 and the Bills beat the Dolphins 27-0. The phins benched Marino that game after 3 INT's, and Miami didn't cross the 50 yard line all game until late in the 4th quarter after Don Strock took over. He drove them down to the Bills 20 where he promptly threw an INT in the endzone. What a great game, and you could easily see what an impact Bennett had on that team.

 

I went to that game and that night went to the Oilers-Sabres game. I kept saying that I'll always be able to say that I saw the greatest QB and the greatest hockey player on the same day. After the beating the Bills put on Marino, I was then down to the greatest hockey player of all time.

 

BP is admittedly conservative and would not have endorsed that deal. I understand he did not even have Gronkowski on their draft board due to concerns with his back - a guy like our troubled OT from the U would similarly never have made his... In the end, we swung for the fences and hopefully we get a couple of runs...

 

Yeah, Gronk has shown to be incredibly durable!

[Doug Flutie Band]

if watkins blows up he's worth it

 

he he doesn't then he's not

[Thurman#1]

If not for BP the Bills would have never amounted to anything. That said, he is out of the league now for a reason.

 

 

Yeah, but the reason is that he gave control over the team to his son and his son ran it into the ground.

 

If he said it almost per batim, it means he was just kidding.

 

 

"Per batim" is a legitimate alternate form of "verbatim."

Edited May 13, 2014 by Thurman#1

[vincec]

In that respect, yes, it was a lot similar. I was referring to the fact that, I think, Kujo actually had surgery on it, and that I don't even think Thurman ever had surgery but I'm not sure. So teams were somewhat worried about them for different reasons, although it was about a knee injury two years before.

 

One article I read said Thurman failed the first Bills physical, and the team even went as far as say, if he hurts it again, we'll just do the surgery on him. They wanted him that bad, and look what happened.

Thomas never had surgery but he still had a ruptured ACL. He just elected not to have his knee reconstructed. The outcomes of that surgery back then were less predictable than they are now. He played his career without an ACL and with a brace. I would say that's more iffy than the situation with Kouandjio.

Edited May 13, 2014 by vincec

[artmalibu]

If the trade up didnt happen then who would have been selected? A OT? and how much better would he be then the guy we took in the 2nd round? Enough better to be a game changer? A legit #1 WR is a game changer, and all the draft experts believe he is. Costly yes. but whats the cost of not having a #1 WR? 6 and 10, is my answer.

[Thurman#1]

I don't buy his argument about Bennett.

 

If you think about it, the trade occurred in 1987, right after the players' strike ended. The year before (1986), the Bills went 4-12. At the time of the trade, the Bills were 3-3. There was definitely a sense that the Bills were on the rise, but it's not like they were a player away or anything. They still had a lot of team needs, and Polian still mortgaged the future -- remember, that was a player in exchange for the following year's #1 and #2, and the year after that's #1. That's huge, much larger than this one. For a team that just came off a 4-12 campaign.

 

 

Gotta disagree about that 1987 roster. If you look at the roster of that 1987 7-8 team, you can see that the team was almost there, that there were very few holes after they got Bennett.

 

Offensive starters: Kelly, Ronnie Harmon, FB Carl Byrum, WRs Reed and Burkett, TE Metzelaars, LT Wolford, LG Ritcher, C Kent Hull, RG Vogler and RT Devlin. That's impressive outside FB (and who cares, really), and RB.

 

Defensive starters: LDE Sean McNanie (the weak link), Smerlas, Bruce, Biscuit, Conlan, RILB Radecic, Talley, CBs Derrick Burroughs and Nate Odomes, and safeties Dwight Drane and Kelso.

 

They were almost there. And Kelly was in his second year and fourth or fifth as a pro, unlike EJ.

 

If the trade up didnt happen then who would have been selected? A OT? and how much better would he be then the guy we took in the 2nd round? Enough better to be a game changer?

 

 

Could've been an OT. Or Ebron. Or Odell Beckham Jr. (who was apparently undervalued by the pundits and apparently valued highly by the Bills we found in the last few days), Or Shazier or Mosley. No way to know, really.

 

If it had been Beckham, how much better is Sammy than Beckham? My guess is that Beckham will also be a game changer, though Sammy will be better.

 

Would Lewan or Martin have changed games compared to Kouandjio? It's possible. Both are apparently quite a bit more athletic than Kouandjio, so perhaps one of those guys could have saved some sacks which might have injured EJ and saved not just a game but a season.

 

Again, no real way to know.

 

 

A legit #1 WR is a game changer, and all the draft experts believe he is. Costly yes. but whats the cost of not having a #1 WR? 6 and 10, is my answer.

 

 

As you say, it's costly.

 

I'd argue 6-10 isn't so much the cost of not having a #1 WR as it was the cost of not having a #1 WR and having a rookie QB who was supposed to have a developmental year, playing behind a line with some real weaknesses in pass protection.

 

We'll find out as time passes whether it was a good move.

[maryland-bills-fan]

In that respect, yes, it was a lot similar. I was referring to the fact that, I think, Kujo actually had surgery on it, and that I don't even think Thurman ever had surgery but I'm not sure. So teams were somewhat worried about them for different reasons, although it was about a knee injury two years before.

 

One article I read said Thurman failed the first Bills physical, and the team even went as far as say, if he hurts it again, we'll just do the surgery on him. They wanted him that bad, and look what happened.

 

You know, sometimes the "experts" are guessing in an information vacumn just like us. If you have one piece of data (hurt knee), then play it up and look smart if it works out. Everyone will forget it if the knee never bothers him. But if you say that the knee will be just fine and it isn't, when then people will always attack you with that error and your career as an expert is over. CYA.

[KevinRome]

Thomas never had surgery but he still had a ruptured ACL. He just elected not to have his knee reconstructed. The outcomes of that surgery back then were less predictable than they are now. He played his career without an ACL and with a brace. I would say that's more iffy than the situation with Kouandjio.

 

I listened to Polian for the conversion that is referenced in this thread, and one of the stories that he told was about the pre-draft preparation in drafting Thurman. He said the medical evaluation trumpted everything and the decision was up to the team doctor. Polian said that Thurman's college knee surgery was videoed, and the doctor looked at it. The doctor reported to Polian that even if Thurman's knee gave out again, there was enough left of ligament that the doctor could repair it.

 

It would be nice if we could get a link to that segment on Sirius/XM, it was quite interesting.

[Chandler#81]

Great thread, Folks!

I don't buy his argument about Bennett.

 

If you think about it, the trade occurred in 1987, right after the players' strike ended. The year before (1986), the Bills went 4-12. At the time of the trade, the Bills were 3-3. There was definitely a sense that the Bills were on the rise, but it's not like they were a player away or anything. They still had a lot of team needs, and Polian still mortgaged the future -- remember, that was a player in exchange for the following year's #1 and #2, and the year after that's #1. That's huge, much larger than this one. For a team that just came off a 4-12 campaign.

Well, yes, but there were 3 teams involved using marquee RB's and a bunch of high picks. We sent Greg Bell to the Rams, who sent Eric Dickerson to the Colts and, IIRC, everyone added picks back & forth. Halloween night, '87. I'll never forget it. One aspect I think being overlooked here is the following year's #1. Back in '87, as Rubes and others have said, we were 7-8. So, while we were truly on the verge of greatness, the next years forfeited pick was still relatively low. This, combined with concerns for TT's knee, allowed us to swoop in and nab him early in the 2nd round. But IF we do begin to finally start winning more games than losing this season, we won't have our first pick until somewhere around the 50's, well past one and a half rounds of selection. It took just 7 wins back then to be able to steal Thurman early in the 2nd. If we only have 7 wins this season, heads will ROLL! The Sammy pick could be very damaging next year -especially if he's awesome and we win many games.