Ted William's frozen head Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 If not for BP the Bills would have never amounted to anything. That said, he is out of the league now for a reason. I'd welcome Polian back in a heartbeat.
machine gun kelly Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I don't buy his argument about Bennett. If you think about it, the trade occurred in 1987, right after the players' strike ended. The year before (1986), the Bills went 4-12. At the time of the trade, the Bills were 3-3. There was definitely a sense that the Bills were on the rise, but it's not like they were a player away or anything. They still had a lot of team needs, and Polian still mortgaged the future -- remember, that was a player in exchange for the following year's #1 and #2, and the year after that's #1. That's huge, much larger than this one. For a team that just came off a 4-12 campaign. Excellent point. It's funny I was on Sirius 5 minutes before Polian came on yesterday talking about the Bills and Bucs draft. I heard the interview, and your points are well taken. I love Mr. Polian as he is the reason the Bills are thought highly of back in the day. With that said, the risk was worth it. As he admitted, he was lucky back then Thurmon fell to them in the second round. Yes, we lost our 1st and 4th, but then we pulled our 4 th back with one trade, and then gave it away for the Philly RB. We added a 5 th this year, and a 5th next year. So in the end we started with 6 picks to get Williams, but added the RB, and had 7 picks. That means for winning this year we added a total of 9 players, and two of them are proven commodities. Add that to Spikes, Williams (the lineman), Graham, Dixon, and Rivers and we added some talent to this team. I know Watkins is a risk, but when are we going to swinging for the fences and try to win.
nucci Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I look at what we acquired and not what we gave up. We got a top WR that could and is expected to be a star player. Let's watch and enjoy.....mini camp and OTA's soon!!
Dr. K Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I watched the replay of the later rounds on ESPN and he was obviously not OK with the Henderson pick either... That being said...I was not in favor of giving up the 1st either...But I disagree with Polian writing it off like it can't have a similar effect to the Bennett trade...I think Polian is falling in line with most other analysts who are looking at this Bills team and assuming they are not very good...And that they can't get very good quickly if everything falls in line...I really don't see his logic as far as the Bennett trade comparison...And I'm not even saying Watkins will have a similar effect...But I am saying there is no reason why he can't have a similar effect at this point...The truth is the Bills were coming off a 4-12 season when they made the Bennett trade...This Bills team is coming off a 6-10 season...That Bills team had a very nice core set of players already in place...So does this one...But more than anything, that 1987 class, not just Biscuit, is what helped the Bills take a HUGE leap towards becoming the team they would eventually become...That 87 class was beyond impressive...It brought Biscuit, Conlan, Odomes, Mueller, Leon Seals, McKeller, and House Ballard...Even without Biscuit that was a hell of a good haul for one Draft...So yes...Getting Biscuit was huge...He's my favorite Bills player of all time...But it took a heck of a lot more to build that incredible roster... So lets just say this Draft brings us a star WR in Watkins, a Pro Bowl caliber RT in Kouandjio, and a Pro Bowl caliber OG in Richardson, along with a solid Nickel DB in Cockrell, a 4th LB in Preston Brown, a solid rotation RB and eventual replacement for Freddie in Bryce Brown, and a #2 WR in Williams...That's a potential major step towards being a good team...Right? So maybe the Watkins trade does end up being the catalyst for future success because the Bills are building a very solid roster...Maybe? The main question is obvious...Can EJ grow into at least a fraction of the leader on and off the field that Jimbo was?...That's really going to be the big question...Because even with the Bennett trade, like Polian admitted, the Bills needed to get that final piece (which was TT) to grow into a Championship team even after trading for Biscuit and having a roster that was becoming loaded...So what he's basically saying is they needed a little luck too...I'm sure this Bills team will need something like that to happen...Like maybe Bryce Brown turns into something really, really special for a few years...But I really don't see why this trade can't be the exact same type of boost to the Bills as the Biscuit trade was...I can also see how it can potential backfire as well...Nobody really knows...Including Polian... +1
All_Pro_Bills Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 (edited) What I have read, most people think the Bills gave up too much to get Watkins.It seems to me like Marrone is hell bent on proving that he made the right choice in drafting EJ last year. Does it matter what Poian and other analysts think about our draft? I used to believe whatever spin the Bills' front office put on their drafts, trades, etc., but somewhere along this playoff drought, I stopped drinking the kool-aid and began listening more to outside analysts even when they were saying things I didn't want to hear. They did give up too much for Watkins and it has been foolish not to invest in a viable back up for EJ. The elephant in the room is whether or not EJ shows a quantum leap in performance this coming season. If so, then the Watkins trade looks great and the draft picks surrendered in the process will be worth it. Personally, I just didn't see enough out of Manuel to have that kind of confidence. But what do I know? I'm not a professional coach or general manager, or scout or anything. Just a fan of the team. All I can bank on is that the evaluation done by the staff is correct and that they are right. In September we'll get to see. As for judging character flaws I think a team has got to be flexible. A guy gets suspended for smoking pot a few times is certainly a red flag, and getting nailed at the combine shows a potential lack of intelligence and understanding. But it all boils down to a game of risk vs. reward and your personal and organizational toleranace for either. Most teams will only put up with nonsense if a player is productive and if a player can be guided by the right environment he can become productive and stay out of trouble. Look at Lynch for example. The Bills decided (under their we only want character guys on the team philosophy at the time) they were not willing to tolerate his 'character flaws' and off the field actions so they traded him to Seattle which was willing to ignore and deal with the potential situation. Different risk vs. reward judgment. I didn't have a problem with that at the time. I believe he has an outstanding DUI case but regardless of that issue the team went on to win the SuperBowl with Lynch being a key part of the offense. The guy has some problems and I expect at some point it will not end well with the Seahawks but on the other hand, I don't expect to see an asterisk next to the 2013-2014 champions name in the history books saying "team had RB with character issues". Edited May 13, 2014 by All_Pro_Bills
machine gun kelly Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I listened to Polian for the conversion that is referenced in this thread, and one of the stories that he told was about the pre-draft preparation in drafting Thurman. He said the medical evaluation trumpted everything and the decision was up to the team doctor. Polian said that Thurman's college knee surgery was videoed, and the doctor looked at it. The doctor reported to Polian that even if Thurman's knee gave out again, there was enough left of ligament that the doctor could repair it. It would be nice if we could get a link to that segment on Sirius/XM, it was quite interesting. If you buy the package to get Sirius added to your phone, I-pad, I believe you can pull up these interviews. I don't know how to get you a link. It's only an extra $2 a month on top of the regular subscription for your car.
May Day 10 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 what if Ebron is the next Brandon Pettigrew or Jermaine Gresham?
K-9 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 what if Ebron is the next Brandon Pettigrew or Jermaine Gresham? He still won't be the next Sammy Watkins. GO BILLS!!!
bigK14094 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Bill Polian......retired, doing broadcasting for a lark.....out of the league by choice, I think. (his choice) Now, about Gronk...really has been hurt a lot . Great TE, but can't stay on the field last two years. Reminds me of POZ when he was here, brittle is word. I don't know how POZ has done on the injury front in Jax. The critiques I have heard about this draft are all vanilla about the situation in buffalo.....they don't acknowledge that a new owner is going to arrive, and if the team isn't a playoff team, new coaching and management will happen..might happen anyhow. But, Whaley and Marrone have no problem "burning the furniture" for the 2015 draft......if they don't win this year, they are most likely gone anyhow...won't be their problem. Yes, a big price, but they are spending what they can to try to keep their jobs...by winning now. Getting rid of S Johnson was OK, he was a lot of trouble...talented with limitations. Fitz made him...and EJ couldn't adapt to SJ's adaptive route running. Hackett complaining laslt year about SJ not running the routes exactly. Of course not, he ran where they weren't. But, EJ is not yet sophisticated enough to recognize that situation.....so SJ had to go, bring in guys who run the route, even if its not open. At least EJ will know where they are. All this turnover......its natural in football...they new management always gets rid of the guys they didn't select.
BillsVet Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I don't think it's particularly fair to lump my critique in with the knee-jerk "run down anyone who doesn't high five the Bills draft" reaction, either. I have absolute respect for Polian and his body of work, and I'm definitely not one of those that believes the game has passed him by, by any means. I wasn't directing this at you and if it came off that way it wasn't my intent. It just seems that anyone who has a opinion not that of a full-fledged fan becomes a target of scorn and ridicule. Frankly, it seems that debate has suffered over the years and made for a lesser board. If everyone thinks the same then no one's thinking. I just happen to like Polian and respect his opinion, even though I disagree with him from time to time.
Doc Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 what if Ebron is the next Brandon Pettigrew or Jermaine Gresham? Then he'd be considered a disappointment.
May Day 10 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Then he'd be considered a disappointment. I know. Thats what Im getting at. It seems these highly coveted top TEs dont really pan out like they are billed. It seems like the great TEs seem to come out of nowhere and are elevated by great offenses, coaches, and QB. I really think if Ebron were drafted by the Bills we would be largely disappointed.
xsoldier54 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 If not for BP the Bills would have never amounted to anything. That said, he is out of the league now for a reason. Sorry, but the Bills were AFL champions long before Bill Polian ever came on board. They had a long and storied history and already had "amounted to something". He did a good job, no doubt, but he did not make the Buffalo Bills by any stretch of the imagination.
eball Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Is Bill Polian infallible? Can we get in the Way Back Machine and evaluate all of the draft picks and trades orchestrated under his regimes in Buffalo, Carolina, and Indy? Even the best GMs are frequently wrong. Maybe Whaley was. The only thing I have a problem with is folks using ANY of these talking heads as the be-all, end-all in evaluating a team's draft. And I really like Bill Polian.
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I wish I would have heard it. BP is very interesting to listen to. Sirius NFL Radio has the most knowledgeable football guys in the business. From Gil Brandt to Ross Tucker there are entire generations in between and even younger. Rich Gannon is horrible on TV but if you listen to him get in to some real football talk on Sirius you realize how f'n smart that guy is and you might be like me; you might look back at his career and see things entirely different. The guy might be HOF worthy, MIGHT. And I hate Rich Gannon the TV guy and never really liked him as a player, either. But, he played smart and it shows when he speaks. Pat Kirwan, Jim Miller, Alex Marvez, Vic Carruci, and Steve Torre really solidify a core unit of folks. The rest - are just as good. Polian, however, will say many things that open your eyes to a better perspective of what the goings-on are in the league on a behind the scenes and in the office viewpoint. Some times he will be out of touch on what reality is - I forget his Tim Tebow statements, but they reflect this. It was something along the line of him being a HOF running back / H-Back. Bill Polian is a great football mind and will know twice as much as the average football fan and 1/2 of what I will ever know but much like every other NFL mind he cannot keep up. And this is not a knock against him, it is just reality. Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy, Jon Gruden, and our own Marv Levy are examples of this. If anyone should be praised for their overall knowledge and expertise on the NFL, Gil Brandt is still the best NFL mind out there - an 81 year old man his mark in the NFL started in the 1950's, over 60 years ago and his contribution to the game is still exhibited every year in every scouting report. Sorry to be all over the place, I am tired as hell...but yeah, Sirius NFL Radio is amazing. it was an easy catch, it really sticks. Gil is a genius and has an otherworldly memory and he's a good guy. What's kind of funny is that even though he has slowed down, he can still lap people half his age and do it with class.
coseybedaman Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I am one of those guys that has developed a bitter attitude over the Bills losing ways over the past dozen years or so. With that being said Doug Whaley has changed my pessimism. I completely trust any moves he makes. This guy is the perfect guy to lead this organization. He has given us no reason to doubt him. If Whaley is going to be judged on whether EJ pans out or not then he should be able to give him a legitimate chance to be successful. Unlike the QBs the Bills have had over the past decade EJ needs and deserves a respectable Oline and WRs around him. What makes it even more impressive is that Whaley is doing this all while having to deal with some of the awful contracts from the last regime. Stevie needed to go. I love our offseason from start to finish for the first time in years!! You do what you need to do to get the elite playmaker in the draft, and that's exactly what they did! GREAT DRAFT! This team is on the rise.
eball Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I wasn't directing this at you and if it came off that way it wasn't my intent. It just seems that anyone who has a opinion not that of a full-fledged fan becomes a target of scorn and ridicule. Frankly, it seems that debate has suffered over the years and made for a lesser board. If everyone thinks the same then no one's thinking. I just happen to like Polian and respect his opinion, even though I disagree with him from time to time. BillsVet, it really goes both ways. Those who take a critical perspective of the Bills are just as quick at pulling the "scorn and ridicule" trigger. That said, it would be nice if both the hopeless optimists and the most ardent pessimists took a moment to see the other side of things. Too many of us (myself included) get stuck on a topic and before you know it, we're sounding like broken records. Just because someone says something a lot doesn't make it any more or less true. They're all just opinions. Cheers.
GA BILLS FAN Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 A few things: 1- Belittling Polian on a Bills board borders on blasphemy if not just plain ignorance. In the 50+ year history of this franchise, there were only TWO sustained periods of excellence, Polian was responsible for one of those. In addition, the guy has been NFL executive of the year 6 times and has had success with 3 different franchises. 2- The Watkins trade, comes down to Watkins play, but more importantly whether EJ is the guy or not. MOST outsiders believe he has yet to prove he is the guy, thereby concluding the Bills are not "close"; if EJ turns out to be the guy, than the trade might work and might be worth the cost, however, even in that scenario, staying at 9 and selecting Beckham might in the end prove to be the better move. In other words, the deck is stacked against this trade being a good one and I think that's what the vast majority of analysts are voicing. Love the player, hate the trade.
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