Lurker Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 I noticed last year that when EJ played with Stevie, he struggled more. I think that moving Stevie was best for all involved. Agreed. Johnson seemed incapable of running a route the same way twice, always freelancing. While that might have been OK with a savvy vet like Fitz, it did no favors for EJ. This trade is addition by subtraction, IMO...
Smears Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 It was time for the two sides to split. He never lived up to a number 1 receivers role. I remember many drops and moping on the sideline after bad plays. Which isnt a quality I would want in a leader. I will miss his character and passion for this team. He was always loyal to the Bills. Im relieved, at the least, he is going to a team that is playoff ready. Good luck Stevie. My favorite Stevie moment is the 'Why So Serious' celebration. Also the crashing Jet in the endzone. Even though he cost the team some penalties it was fun to watch.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Agreed. Johnson seemed incapable of running a route the same way twice, always freelancing. While that might have been OK with a savvy vet like Fitz, it did no favors for EJ. This trade is addition by subtraction, IMO... Whaley comes from the Steelers who are probably the best franchise at building a team concept where 50 parts and cogs mesh into a consistently good team. I see him doing the same thing with the Bills, and Stevie, however much I liked him, doesn't fit that. The combination of Watkins, MWilliams, Robert Woods and Goodwin, all have pretty well defined roles, and is seemingly a very good collection of WR that could drive defenses fits. Watkins the all around #1 star, MWilliams the #2 and red zone threat who is good at jump balls, Woods the very reliable jack of all trades, and Goodwin the speed demon wildcard with ball skills. Stevie, IMO, doesn't really fit in well with that. The "seemingly" is the operative word. They haven't played together yet, let alone succeeded together. But those four talents, along with Spiller, looks to be tough to defense. There aren't enough plays and balls to go around to add Stevie to that mix, especially because he is the free lancer that he is. Without the MWilliams trade, we would still need him.
What a Tuel Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Williams has had some solid production. I would not catagorize him as 'unproven'. I agree, I usually picked him up in Fantasy as a solid back up WR. He vultured quite a few touchdowns from Jackson. That said, he tore his hamstring, and is moving to a new system. I would qualify my statement that he is unproven with the fact that he is unproven on our team, and has a hamstring injury. Not to mention, weren't half of our starting receivers injured at some point or another last year? I think you're having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that the Bills' staff doesn't agree with your assessments. The Bills have spent three high draft picks on receivers since Marrone arrived -- and they took Graham the year earlier. They are young, but that also means they are coachable. Stevie is his own cat. Fans should stop looking at the individual player statistics and focus on what the Bills are trying to do as a team. Is Stevie Johnson as an individual receiver -- in a vacuum -- "better" than Goodwin or Woods right now? Probably. But that's not the point. I agree I am having a hard time coming to grips with it. I just don't understand, what are they trying to do as a team though? Despite his on the field antics years ago, I haven't heard of any issues he has caused. And as far as we know, he hasn't had a negative impact on the locker room. Maybe you are right, maybe he was disrupting the locker room, disrupting the team, but I just don't see it. It seemed like he loved playing for Buffalo. I am putting words in your mouth, so If you don't think he was disrupting the team, then is this "vision" by the coaches really worth getting rid of johnson? Oh well, what is done is done. I was just looking forward to seeing that spectacular receiving core together for at least a year. They will still be good for sure, just one less pretty good target for Manuel.
BarleyNY Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Hearing that Stevie Johnson was originally included in the Cleveland trade, but Pettine nixed his inclusion because he didn't want him on the team. This with knowledge of Gordon's possible suspension and Burleson's broken arm. That should tell you something about SJ.
ganesh Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 Exactly... Stevie would have been on the bench. The offense depends on speed and separation, not basketball moves to get open 5 yards from the line... EJ and Stevie seemed like they were not on the same page to boot. Williams, woods and Watkins are all better fits for the offense than SJ13. It was obvious last year.. And I have been a huge SJ fan. I saw him being most lethal in Denver's offense.. Hope he thrives in SF. Exactly... And everyone knew SJ13 was weak on the long routes, which explains the move to slot. SJ was best when playing with Fitzpatrick, a QB who had a quick release and did not need to throw beyond 10 yards. SJ flourished in that system in spite of his lack of focus or ability to consistently break the jam. Fitz and EJ are not the same type of QBs. If EJ can learn to be consistent with the long ball, he now has the right WRs to win the match ups. Game on EJ. Whaley comes from the Steelers who are probably the best franchise at building a team concept where 50 parts and cogs mesh into a consistently good team. I see him doing the same thing with the Bills, and Stevie, however much I liked him, doesn't fit that. The combination of Watkins, MWilliams, Robert Woods and Goodwin, all have pretty well defined roles, and is seemingly a very good collection of WR that could drive defenses fits. Watkins the all around #1 star, MWilliams the #2 and red zone threat who is good at jump balls, Woods the very reliable jack of all trades, and Goodwin the speed demon wildcard with ball skills. Stevie, IMO, doesn't really fit in well with that. The "seemingly" is the operative word. They haven't played together yet, let alone succeeded together. But those four talents, along with Spiller, looks to be tough to defense. There aren't enough plays and balls to go around to add Stevie to that mix, especially because he is the free lancer that he is. Without the MWilliams trade, we would still need him. That is a great line indeed...It would be nice if the Bills can get a pass catching TE that is better than Chandler. Hearing that Stevie Johnson was originally included in the Cleveland trade, but Pettine nixed his inclusion because he didn't want him on the team. This with knowledge of Gordon's possible suspension and Burleson's broken arm. That should tell you something about SJ. +1 I agree, I usually picked him up in Fantasy as a solid back up WR. He vultured quite a few touchdowns from Jackson. That said, he tore his hamstring, and is moving to a new system. I would qualify my statement that he is unproven with the fact that he is unproven on our team, and has a hamstring injury. Not to mention, weren't half of our starting receivers injured at some point or another last year? I am putting words in your mouth, so If you don't think he was disrupting the team, then is this "vision" by the coaches really worth getting rid of johnson? Oh well, what is done is done. I was just looking forward to seeing that spectacular receiving core together for at least a year. They will still be good for sure, just one less pretty good target for Manuel. I assume the cap economics also played a part in this. SJ had a pretty significant cap hit for 2014. You can't pay Watkins, Williams and SJ all at the same position. I think this also puts pressure on CJ to perform. He either takes a friendly deal of 4-5M a year or is allowed to play through the year and either gets tagged or walks as a FA.
BenchBledsoe Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 The people thinking this was a bad move really don't know football. They must be the casual fan-types. Stevie had good short area quickness and okay hands and was tough. But, he had key drops, lacked any speed, had no downfield game, had absolutely no RAC ability (run after catch, for you casual fan-types). SJ was no threat so him being out there would allow other teams to feel real good about stacking the box. His loss is addition by subtraction. Him playing would simply have been wasting valuable playing time for young speedster/playmakers.
Rico Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 Hearing that Stevie Johnson was originally included in the Cleveland trade, but Pettine nixed his inclusion because he didn't want him on the team. This with knowledge of Gordon's possible suspension and Burleson's broken arm. That should tell you something about SJ. Can't blame him there. SJ isn't the kind of player you want when you're a new coach trying to turn a team around. Niners make a lot more sense, though if I'm Harbaugh, he's not seeing the field at the end of tight games. Anyways, good luck Stevie!
papazoid Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 stevie has #1 receiver talent without the work effort to match. this will be the kick in the ass he needs to turn his life around....in the same way marshawn lynch turned his around. plus he won't have a mediocre QB throwing to him and he won't be double teamed in SF.
PO'14 Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 stevie has #1 receiver talent without the work effort to match. this will be the kick in the ass he needs to turn his life around....in the same way marshawn lynch turned his around. plus he won't have a mediocre QB throwing to him and he won't be double teamed in SF. Do you really believe that SJ13 has #1 Talent? Do you really believe that M.Lynch turned his life around? Do you really believe that SJ was double teamed in Buffalo? Please tell me that I missed the sarcasm.
Bronc24 Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 stevie has #1 receiver talent without the work effort to match. this will be the kick in the ass he needs to turn his life around....in the same way marshawn lynch turned his around. plus he won't have a mediocre QB throwing to him and he won't be double teamed in SF. You can tell our receivers have sucked when SJ is referred to as a #1 talent. No he isn't. SJ cannot hold a candle to the talent Sammy Watkins will bring to the table.
USABuffaloFan Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 Thanks Stevie for the 3 1000 yard seasons in a row during dreary times. One bit of advice, don't ever admit to not working out hard in the offseason. You created a divide immediately from Marone who wanted people to work hardier to achieve more wins. Then you had a subpar season with groin injures, what were the Bills suppose to do. They traded for a new veteran and drafted a new #1 receiver. Well at least your going to a winning team and your home territory. Good luck, GO BILLS!!!!
What a Tuel Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) SJ was best when playing with Fitzpatrick, a QB who had a quick release and did not need to throw beyond 10 yards. SJ flourished in that system in spite of his lack of focus or ability to consistently break the jam. Fitz and EJ are not the same type of QBs. If EJ can learn to be consistent with the long ball, he now has the right WRs to win the match ups. Game on EJ. That is a great line indeed...It would be nice if the Bills can get a pass catching TE that is better than Chandler. +1 I assume the cap economics also played a part in this. SJ had a pretty significant cap hit for 2014. You can't pay Watkins, Williams and SJ all at the same position. I think this also puts pressure on CJ to perform. He either takes a friendly deal of 4-5M a year or is allowed to play through the year and either gets tagged or walks as a FA. Don't we take some kind of cap hit anyway? Can someone provide a source or explanation for the supposed $8-10 million cap hit Johnson would have had on us? It looks like the Niners wouldn't have that high, but I am admittedly not a cap expert http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/5/9/5700374/stevie-johnson-trade-49ers-salary-cap-2014 What about Williams? Do you think we keep him for 6+ million next year? Edited May 11, 2014 by What a Tuel
papazoid Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Don't we take some kind of cap hit anyway? Can someone provide a source or explanation for the supposed $8-10 million cap hit Johnson would have had on us? It looks like the Niners wouldn't have that high, but I am admittedly not a cap expert http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/5/9/5700374/stevie-johnson-trade-49ers-salary-cap-2014 What about Williams? Do you think we keep him for 6+ million next year? the Bills will be hit with $10.2 million in DEAD MONEY http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/2014/ (scroll all the way to the bottom) also: http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Bills&Year=2014 Edited May 11, 2014 by papazoid
What a Tuel Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) the Bills will be hit with $10.2 million in DEAD MONEY http://www.spotrac.c...bills/cap/2014/ (scroll all the way to the bottom) also: http://overthecap.co...Bills&Year=2014 Thank you for the links. So we still took a very large cap hit this year, but should be free and clear next year. What would have happened if we kept him and traded him after the 2014 season? I assume a smaller cap hit, but a cap hit nonetheless I guess. There should be no excuses for not resigning particular key players next year then. Edited May 11, 2014 by What a Tuel
DOGNESS Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 the Bills will be hit with $10.2 million in DEAD MONEY http://www.spotrac.c...bills/cap/2014/ (scroll all the way to the bottom) also: http://overthecap.co...Bills&Year=2014 Its not my money so who cares?
YoloinOhio Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 the Bills will be hit with $10.2 million in DEAD MONEY http://www.spotrac.c...bills/cap/2014/ (scroll all the way to the bottom) also: http://overthecap.co...Bills&Year=2014 I have a sneaking suspicion that Marrone and Whaley think it is worth it.
Matt in KC Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 All money a team pays has to count against their cap, it's just a question of what year/s it hits. Base salary hits the year it is paid against the team that pays it; bonuses are allocated across the full contract. This (bonuses paid) is why cutting a player causes a cap hit: there was money paid that has not yet been applied to the cap. Question 1: Does he really have $10M we paid in bonuses that hasn't been applied to our cap? Holy crap! Question 2: Does anyone know the rule for when dead money can be applied across 2 years? I know it (likely) doesn't apply here, it's just the part I keep forgetting.
BarleyNY Posted May 11, 2014 Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) All money a team pays has to count against their cap, it's just a question of what year/s it hits. Base salary hits the year it is paid against the team that pays it; bonuses are allocated across the full contract. This (bonuses paid) is why cutting a player causes a cap hit: there was money paid that has not yet been applied to the cap. Question 1: Does he really have $10M we paid in bonuses that hasn't been applied to our cap? Holy crap! Question 2: Does anyone know the rule for when dead money can be applied across 2 years? I know it (likely) doesn't apply here, it's just the part I keep forgetting. 1. See link below. It shows current cap situation. $10.2M in dead money. But don't forget the whole picture. All unaccounted for signing bonus proration cap hits accelerate into the current year, but his salary comes off the cap number and some of that signing bonus was already included in this year's cap. It just wasn't "dead" money. http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Bills&Year=2014 2. June 1st is the date. Any player traded or cut after that date (or designated as a post June 1st cut) will have their future signing bonus prorations accelerate into the next season's cap. Their current year's signing bonus proration still counts in the current year. The Bills still have over $11M in cap space. I believe that the move actually freed up cap space. I'll look that up. I can't find all of the info I need, but the Bills already paid his $4.5M roster bonus this year so it would probably depend upon how you look at the situation. With that paid they took a hit for sure. That's a big bonus to eat for a 3rd or 4th round pick - one that will likely be late in either round. Edited May 11, 2014 by BarleyNY
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