Orton's Arm Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 I'd divide a football team into three categories: 1. Quarterback. 2. "Foundation players." 3. Everyone else. For someone to meet my definition of a "foundation player," all of the following must be true: 1. He must play at a high level. 2. He must have a long career. 3. The vast majority of his career must be spent with your team. It's difficult to build any kind of long-term advantage over other NFL teams using "everyone else" type players. To build something which will last, a GM should obtain for himself a very good QB, and a good core of foundation players. If your team doesn't have an answer at quarterback, and has very few foundational players, it's very difficult to build something. If the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in 14 years, it's mostly due to our weakness at quarterback and the paucity of foundation players. Getting a foundation player is a two part process. First you must draft or sign a very good player. Then you must keep that good player on your roster for a very long time. If your best players go first-contract-and-out, you will be extremely unlikely to build or sustain a winning football team. There is talk about moving Cordy Glenn to RT or OG; even though this would spoil the Bills' ability to extend him. There is talk about drafting a LT at #9 and moving him to RT. This, even though the top RTs are paid much less than the top LTs--a fact which would likely tempt our RT to leave after his rookie contract was done. I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking at all. If the offensive line needs more talent--which it does--the Bills should focus on maximizing the number of foundation offensive linemen; while minimizing their draft pick investment. That means holding onto Cordy Glenn for his whole career. It also means that if they draft a RT, they should also hold onto that RT for his whole career also--or at least have a disciplined, realistic plan for doing so.
maryland-bills-fan Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 I agree with the analysis of the pay of LEFT offensive tackle verus RIGHT offensive tackle. To repeat, what has been written elsewhere, the 13th LOT gets paid the same as the 1st ROT and for the middle tier guys, the LOT gets about $2.5M a year more than the ROT. IF the Bills want to draft a LOT in the high first round to play ROT, realize that his rookie 4-5 year contract will be set by the rookie slot rules and he will be getting paid just like such a LOT. If they Bills then want to pay him like a LOT in his second contract, I might go along with that if I could be convinced that the extra money paid can be taken from some other position. The wiser thing to do is to draft a ROT type player in the lower first or the 2nd round and be competitive with the rest of the NFL in the decision as how to allocate salary.
PearlHowardman Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10.
CodeMonkey Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. Coaching alone can't do it. You also need talent. For example, Scotty Bowman could have been the Sabres coach last season and they still would have sucked and ended up in last place.
PearlHowardman Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Marrone, et al, are not NFL coaches. I have less confidence in Russ Brandon. I say that and I'm from Syracuse. 6-10.
Bronc24 Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 I'd divide a football team into three categories: 1. Quarterback. 2. "Foundation players." 3. Everyone else. For someone to meet my definition of a "foundation player," all of the following must be true: 1. He must play at a high level. 2. He must have a long career. 3. The vast majority of his career must be spent with your team. It's difficult to build any kind of long-term advantage over other NFL teams using "everyone else" type players. To build something which will last, a GM should obtain for himself a very good QB, and a good core of foundation players. If your team doesn't have an answer at quarterback, and has very few foundational players, it's very difficult to build something. If the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in 14 years, it's mostly due to our weakness at quarterback and the paucity of foundation players. Getting a foundation player is a two part process. First you must draft or sign a very good player. Then you must keep that good player on your roster for a very long time. If your best players go first-contract-and-out, you will be extremely unlikely to build or sustain a winning football team. There is talk about moving Cordy Glenn to RT or OG; even though this would spoil the Bills' ability to extend him. There is talk about drafting a LT at #9 and moving him to RT. This, even though the top RTs are paid much less than the top LTs--a fact which would likely tempt our RT to leave after his rookie contract was done. I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking at all. If the offensive line needs more talent--which it does--the Bills should focus on maximizing the number of foundation offensive linemen; while minimizing their draft pick investment. That means holding onto Cordy Glenn for his whole career. It also means that if they draft a RT, they should also hold onto that RT for his whole career also--or at least have a disciplined, realistic plan for doing so. Agree with your premise. Without a QB, you cannot win a Superbowl in this league. However, I must ask the question: who is talking about moving Glenn to RT or OG outside of this board or in the media? I haven't heard anyone from the Bills say this....
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. See Belichick's record before Brady and after Brady. Marrone, et al, are not NFL coaches. I have less confidence in Russ Brandon. I say that and I'm from Syracuse. 6-10. You're awesome. you're right. Syracuse was a footbal lpowerhouse when Marrone inherited them. The fact he didn't win multple championships with Ryan "Peyton Jr" Nassib as his QB is damning.
QB Bills Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. We have talent everywhere except for coach and qb. Unfortunately the two places you need it most. Hopefully Manuel steps it up this season or all this offseason chatter will be for nothing.
BigBuff423 Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 (edited) Marrone, et al, are not NFL coaches. I have less confidence in Russ Brandon. I say that and I'm from Syracuse. 6-10. Welcome to the party sunshine.... I'm all for balanced reason and approach to critiquing the BILLS, their past flaws and failures and of course the prospective future...but simply chime in to piss on the parade as it's being assembled, hasn't even left the parking lot yet, takes a certain sociopathic proclivity for sportsmanship....don't like what the BILLS have done in the past, I get it...you're pessimistic about their future...ok, fair enough....but then please, find a different means to vent your frustration...the NFL Draft is nearing 48 hours and counting and to just get your giggles by coming onto a board by dismissing what hopeful prospects the BILLS are aiming to get to achieve a competitive and winning team, is just....well, I don't want to get banned so I'll stop there....there's constructive and there's destructive...your choice of words, and their timing, appear to be the latter....just sayin'..... Edit: the italic bold is the only thing I edited after I realized I ranted without proof reading - my mistake...but at least mine's fixable Edited May 6, 2014 by BigBuff423
Bronc24 Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Welcome to the party sunshine.... I'm all for balanced reason and approach to critiquing the BILLS, their past flaws and failures and of course the prospective future...but simply chime in to piss on the parade as it's being assembled, hasn't even left the parking lot yet, takes a certain sociopathic proclivity for sportsmanship....don't like what the BILLS have done in the past, I get it...you're pessimistic about their future...ok, fair enough....but then please, find a different means to vent your frustration...the NFL Draft is nearing 48 hours and counting and to just get your giggles by coming onto a board talking about what hopeful prospects the BILLS are aiming to get to achieve a competitive and winning team, is just....well, I don't want to get banned so I'll stop there....there's constructive and there's destructive...your choice of words, and their timing, appear to be the latter....just sayin'..... +1
Bill from NYC Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 I'd divide a football team into three categories: 1. Quarterback. 2. "Foundation players." 3. Everyone else. For someone to meet my definition of a "foundation player," all of the following must be true: 1. He must play at a high level. 2. He must have a long career. 3. The vast majority of his career must be spent with your team. It's difficult to build any kind of long-term advantage over other NFL teams using "everyone else" type players. To build something which will last, a GM should obtain for himself a very good QB, and a good core of foundation players. If your team doesn't have an answer at quarterback, and has very few foundational players, it's very difficult to build something. If the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in 14 years, it's mostly due to our weakness at quarterback and the paucity of foundation players. Getting a foundation player is a two part process. First you must draft or sign a very good player. Then you must keep that good player on your roster for a very long time. If your best players go first-contract-and-out, you will be extremely unlikely to build or sustain a winning football team. There is talk about moving Cordy Glenn to RT or OG; even though this would spoil the Bills' ability to extend him. There is talk about drafting a LT at #9 and moving him to RT. This, even though the top RTs are paid much less than the top LTs--a fact which would likely tempt our RT to leave after his rookie contract was done. I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking at all. If the offensive line needs more talent--which it does--the Bills should focus on maximizing the number of foundation offensive linemen; while minimizing their draft pick investment. That means holding onto Cordy Glenn for his whole career. It also means that if they draft a RT, they should also hold onto that RT for his whole career also--or at least have a disciplined, realistic plan for doing so. It is GREAT to see you posting again!!!!! I don't fully agree with your post, but so what? I am not concerned with the "feelings" of Glenn, Manuel, or really any other player. This was Levy/Jauron nonsense and dates back to "promising" Clements that they would not tag him. They wound up getting nothing for him. I hope that the Bills draft a QB, blockers, and pass rushers. Imo, this is what wins football games and the lack of doing so has caused us to lose football games. Either way let me repeat, it's GREAT to see you post again!!!
Kirby Jackson Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Nice post Edwards' Arm!! Your 3 points are pretty much spot on. There are a lot of ways to get to build point #2. Teams have done it in a variety of ways with success (Saints with playmakers, Seattle with secondary, SF with physicality, etc...). The point is that you need to get value whenever you pick. Do not reach for a "need" ever and do whatever you have to when it comes to finding a QB. Find a QB, draft talent and plug holes in FA.
Orton's Arm Posted May 7, 2014 Author Posted May 7, 2014 I agree with the analysis of the pay of LEFT offensive tackle verus RIGHT offensive tackle. To repeat, what has been written elsewhere, the 13th LOT gets paid the same as the 1st ROT and for the middle tier guys, the LOT gets about $2.5M a year more than the ROT. IF the Bills want to draft a LOT in the high first round to play ROT, realize that his rookie 4-5 year contract will be set by the rookie slot rules and he will be getting paid just like such a LOT. If they Bills then want to pay him like a LOT in his second contract, I might go along with that if I could be convinced that the extra money paid can be taken from some other position. The wiser thing to do is to draft a ROT type player in the lower first or the 2nd round and be competitive with the rest of the NFL in the decision as how to allocate salary. Good post. In the post-Polian era, the Bills have used a large number of first round picks on RBs and DBs. In the past I thought that this pattern was partially the cause of the Bills' malaise. Now I'm starting to think it may have been more of a symptom. To take a specific example: the Bills used a first round pick on Antoine Winfield. Winfield became a good football player--a better player than you'd normally expect from a late first round pick. TD had been negotiating an extension with Winfield's agent. But, a year before Winfield's rookie contract expired, TD broke off contract negotiations. He wanted to squander what should have been Winfield's salary cap space on other players, such as Troy Vincent and Lawyer Milloy. TD's attitude towards Winfield was consistent with how post-Butler Bills GMs have acted: they were very casual about letting their best DBs go first-contract-and-out. And very willing to use first round picks to replace those DBs. A foundation player at any position will do two things for you. 1) Give you a high level of play. Typically a higher level of play than you otherwise would have received. 2) Get you out of having to invest draft picks in that position, for many years to come. The Bills should coordinate their drafting strategy and their contract extension policy to build the strongest group of foundation players possible. If it's a choice between filling an immediate need or obtaining a foundation player, the Bills should consistently choose the latter.
PearlHowardman Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 We have talent everywhere except for coach and qb. Unfortunately the two places you need it most/ +1 See Belichick's record before Brady and after Brady. Bill Belichick is THE reason why the the Bills didn't win Super Bowl XXV. And he's been beating the Buffalo Bills ever since and he always will.
Orton's Arm Posted May 7, 2014 Author Posted May 7, 2014 It is GREAT to see you posting again!!!!! I don't fully agree with your post, but so what? I am not concerned with the "feelings" of Glenn, Manuel, or really any other player. This was Levy/Jauron nonsense and dates back to "promising" Clements that they would not tag him. They wound up getting nothing for him. I hope that the Bills draft a QB, blockers, and pass rushers. Imo, this is what wins football games and the lack of doing so has caused us to lose football games. Either way let me repeat, it's GREAT to see you post again!!! > It is GREAT to see you posting again!!!!! Thanks! > I am not concerned with the "feelings" of Glenn, Manuel, or really any other player. I agree that concern for a player's feelings should never be an end in itself. On the other hand, suppose you've just drafted a good football player. At that point, it's absolutely essential you have a viable strategy in place for retaining that player for most or all of his career. There will be times when paying attention to a player's hopes for the future will give you a better chance of retaining him. If the player is valuable, it makes sense to accept this as the cost of doing business. > This was Levy/Jauron nonsense and dates back to "promising" Clements that they would not tag him. I remember that. Marv tagged him once, but promised him not to tag him a second time. That first tagging bought Marv a year during which he could negotiate an extension with Clements. However, Marv made poor use of that year. He said that he could make Clements an offer; but if he did so, it would be an offer Clements didn't like. He also failed to trade Clements during that one year window. The whole situation represented Marv's failure to either a) turn Clements into a foundation player by extending him, or b) get some value out of him in a trade. > I hope that the Bills draft a QB, blockers, and pass rushers. Imo, this is what wins football games and the lack of doing so has caused us to lose football games. If you look at the AFC East as a whole, you'll see that there was one franchise QB in Bills' history, 1.5 franchise QBs in Patriots history, 2 in Dolphins' history, and 1 in Jets' history. Every Super Bowl win, and nearly every Super Bowl appearance achieved by an AFC East team occurred when it had a franchise QB. A franchise QB is absolutely essential; and the Bills' failure to find a replacement for Kelly has hamstrung this team. If the Bills solved that problem in this draft, it would transform the next 10+ years of this franchise. An elite QB affects both 1) and 2) on my list, because he's also a foundation player. A number of years ago, I read an article by Dr. Z. The premise of the article was that a sufficiently bad offensive line can cause the entire offense to collapse. Bad run blocking will cause the running game to fail. Sufficiently bad pass protection will often result in the death of the passing game. If the offense is unable to stay on the field, that also negatively affects the defense. He then listed several teams which he felt had experienced this kind of failure. The Bills were among the teams he named. Needless to say, I agreed with every word from that article. I want the Bills to avoid that kind of failure. The way to do that is to increase the number of foundation players on the offensive line. Once Glenn signs an extension he'll become a foundation player. If they draft a good offensive lineman this coming weekend, and retain him for the duration of his career, that will be another foundation player. > Imo, this is what wins football games and the lack of doing so has caused us to lose football games. While I agree QBs, OL, and pass rushers are important, I feel players at other positions can make a major impact also. Take Larry Fitzgerald for example. When the Cardinals drafted him third overall, many raised their eyebrows. Fitzgerald didn't fill an immediate need; whereas other available players did. But Fitzgerald went on to become a foundation player for the Cardinals. A truly elite foundation player. Eventually, the Cardinals went to the Super Bowl. Their defense was nothing special. Their offensive line was mediocre at best. Their LT spot was manned by a Bills' castoff Mike Gandy. There were only two special things about that Cardinals team: Kurt Warner, and their receiving corps. Warner threw for 377 yards in that Super Bowl--the second highest yardage total in Super Bowl history. He averaged a stellar 8.8 yards per pass attempt; and threw 3 TDs to one INT. Ultimately the Steelers won that Super Bowl 27-23. But the Cardinals accomplished a lot more, and put up a much better fight, with Larry Fitzgerald than they would have without him. Fitzgerald had 7 receptions for 127 yards. I'm also reasonably certain he drew double coverage.
34-78-83 Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Sometimes you just gotta stop pissing in your own cheerios every morning. It's amazing how perspective on things changes thereafter.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Good drafting Good coaching Player retention getting consistent above average QB play (with surrounding talent)
mattsox Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Winning football teams have competent coaching. The Buffalo Bills does not have competent coaching. 6-10. Coaching is irrelevant. All-Pro talent is what it's about. The Bills are NOT a team of Pro-Bowlers!
chris heff Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Agree with your premise. Without a QB, you cannot win a Superbowl in this league. However, I must ask the question: who is talking about moving Glenn to RT or OG outside of this board or in the media? I haven't heard anyone from the Bills say this.... Joe Theismann Jim McMahon Doug Williams Jeff Hostetler Mark Rypien Trent Dilfer Brad Johnson Some pretty mediocre QBs that won Super Bowls.
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