BillsVet Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I think it's a possibility if Lewan is still there. There are a couple of teams, New York Giants and Dallas Cowboys who need a big, nasty guy to come in and play left tackle immediately. They wouldn't have to give up a bunch to get there.... I think the Giants could do it for a 4th (maybe a 3rd) the Cowboys maybe would have to give up their 2nd rounder, but that trade favours the Bills so maybe they give up the 2nd rounder but swap 3rds..... If only 1 QB goes and the three tackles, two receivers, two pass rushers have all gone then I think someone coming up to trade with the Bills is unlikely. In that scenario I agree with your no mans land comment. Dallas doesn't need a LT, they've got Tyron Smith, while the Giants may need that guy-they drafted Justin Pugh in the first last year though. Both may need another OT though. At the same time, trading up is something you do when you're a player away. The Bills aren't that right now despite what they broadcast. They need help at RT, DE, TE and we don't know if Corey Graham can play safety because he's never done so in a 7 year career.
NoSaint Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 The Bills aren't that right now despite what they broadcast. They need help at RT, DE, TE and we don't know if Corey Graham can play safety because he's never done so in a 7 year career. you do realize even GREAT teams could upgrade at a couple spots often? if EJ is a serviceable QB (big if), this is a team that is 1 player from being right in the playoff mix (heck if ej is a serviceable qb they are in that conversation already).... even with scott chandler at TE (isnt a top tier guy but is certainly enough to be part of a functional offense).
YoloinOhio Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) you do realize even GREAT teams could upgrade at a couple spots often? if EJ is a serviceable QB (big if), this is a team that is 1 player from being right in the playoff mix (heck if ej is a serviceable qb they are in that conversation already).... even with scott chandler at TE (isnt a top tier guy but is certainly enough to be part of a functional offense). If a roster is not great, a team can win with an elite QB. If the QB is not elite, the team can win with an great roster. Phillips Rivers is maybe not elite but SD is in cap hell and does not have a great roster IMO. Yet they made the playoffs in a tough division and won a road playoff game. After sustaining multiple injuries before and during the season. They have a lot of good players, a few very good, some barely decent players and one really good QB. Edited May 2, 2014 by YoloinOhio
PromoTheRobot Posted May 2, 2014 Author Posted May 2, 2014 You are still arguing against the most extreme stance possible - that we must trade 1, 1 and 2 to get to number 1 simply because we haven't made the playoffs. I'm not sure that focusing your energy on THAT discussion will prove worthwhile. If you come back to the reasonable crowd instead of arguing with the drunks under the bridge I think there is a realistic discussion that the bills (and a lot of us) are having about shipping some mess of a 2 or 3 and maybe a player to get up into the top 5 to get an elite pass rusher or receiver instead of a good one. You are correct. I'm mainly railing at people who want to go all the way up to #1. Packaging this year's #1 and #2 picks to get up to 4 or 5 is not an unreasonable move.
BillsVet Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) you do realize even GREAT teams could upgrade at a couple spots often? if EJ is a serviceable QB (big if), this is a team that is 1 player from being right in the playoff mix (heck if ej is a serviceable qb they are in that conversation already).... even with scott chandler at TE (isnt a top tier guy but is certainly enough to be part of a functional offense). That's a huge conflation of the argument. Sure, every team could upgrade, but the Bills' baseline at some positions is woeful. I've made the point repeatedly that they lack a DE opposite Mario in Schwartz's scheme. Right now I've got to believe Jarius Wynn is the guy, and he's a journeyman. Or there's Alan Branch who is a 43DT or 34DE, not someone I'd want in on 1st or 2nd down passing plays when Jerry Hughes is off the field. At RT, it's obvious Pears is at the end and needs replacement. Is he upright and somewhat healthy? Yeah, but he's not good. Hairston is a complete unknown. A lesser need might be safety and TE, but they should be improved sooner rather than later. This is a 6-10 team that lost Byrd and picked up Graham, B. Spikes, Keith Rivers and Chris Williams. Does that make them a 10-6 playoff team? I don't think it does. They need some serious upgrades. Edited May 2, 2014 by BillsVet
NoSaint Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) That's a huge conflation of the argument. Sure, every team could upgrade, but the Bills' baseline at some positions is woeful. I've made the point repeatedly that they lack a DE opposite Mario in Schwartz's scheme. Right now I've got to believe Jarius Wynn is the guy, and he's a journeyman. Or there's Alan Branch who is a 43DT or 34DE, not someone I'd want in on 1st or 2nd down passing plays when Jerry Hughes is off the field. At RT, it's obvious Pears is at the end and needs replacement. Is he upright and somewhat healthy? Yeah, but he's not good. Hairston is a complete unknown. A lesser need might be safety and TE, but they should be improved sooner rather than later. This is a 6-10 team that lost Byrd and picked up Graham, B. Spikes, Keith Rivers and Chris Williams. Does that make them a 10-6 playoff team? I don't think it does. They need some serious upgrades. when you included TE as a glaring hole, it made me question your standards a bit. but it seems like it was just shooting from the cuff loosely which we all do. some things to consider: we had a good pass rush up front and havent lost anyone. im one of the biggest voices that questions what schwartz will do, but its possible our 3 out of 4 probowl lineman with a rotation at the 4th spot could be very functional still. and if williams works out at guard (im not a huge fan but apparently our staff is) that we have a solid line with pears/hairston as the biggest question mark (and they know about hairston even if we dont). my take is we should add a playmaker in the passing game (not just an ok #2 kind of guy), itd be nice to add a pass rusher (but thats every year, really) and a lineman that has starting potential (even if its not day 1) that could all come together with a Watkins at 4, RT in the 2nd/3rd (whichever is left), and a situational player added at end in the 4th. compared to something like Ebron, RT, pass rusher, and someone in the 4th... or RT, TE, pass rusher and someone in the 4th.... i think when you start actually mapping it out, instead of leaving it abstract it sounds a bit less daunting, but thats just me. i dont think we are THAT far off being a real competitor (again, if EJ plays atleast ok), and that moving up wouldnt prevent us from adding other talent at weak spots (especially if you consider them weak spots and not GLARING holes, which i think this staff is thinking). remember this 6-10 team was also playing with a UDFA qb for stretches, and a guy that was going to be a lions cut that we traded for AFTER preseason. if qb play is improved and hackett cleans things up a bit, this is a team thats approaching 8-9 wins, and a real playmaker might be able to add 1-2 on top of that. Edited May 2, 2014 by NoSaint
BobChalmers Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) Preserve 2015 picks - we do not know what we have at the QB position. If everyone in the drat process agrees that a Mack or clowney or Watkins is worth going up for, use 2014 currency if at all possible. You do not want to find yourselves in a Redskins situation. This. I'f I'm mortgaging the future to move up to #1 - it's 2016 picks to move to #1 next year and take Jameis "Crab Legs" Winston. NO ONE in this year's draft looks like the kind of player that justifies moving up that hard. Edited May 2, 2014 by BobChalmers
PromoTheRobot Posted May 7, 2014 Author Posted May 7, 2014 Someone takes the scientific approach to what I've been saying and backs me up. Trading up is fool's gold. http://www.vox.com/2014/5/7/5683448/how-nfl-teams-ignore-basic-economics-and-draft-players-irrationally PTR
thewildrabbit Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Someone takes the scientific approach to what I've been saying and backs me up. Trading up is fool's gold. http://www.vox.com/2...rs-irrationally PTR Great article, and I agree with it. I don't want to see any trade up at all because this draft is loaded with talent, specifically loaded at WR. So it really bugs me to hear about drafting the #1 WR. Plus, I don't believe there is one singular talent worthy of trading up for, unless they want a QB. Johnny Football perhaps? My reasoning is simple, because so many underclass declared I believe that good starting talent can be found thru rounds 2, 3 and 4. This hasn't been the case for the Bills for the longest time
Bill from NYC Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 You are correct. I'm mainly railing at people who want to go all the way up to #1. Packaging this year's #1 and #2 picks to get up to 4 or 5 is not an unreasonable move. I gotta admit, it's nice (however rare) to be on the same page with you. :0 I will take it a step further Promo. I think it would be self serving and irresponsible of Whaley, Marrone, and most of all Brandon to trade away the future of this franchise. It's even worse given the arrest of Dareus. We might very well have an unforeseen hole at DT. KW is very good but he is a bit brittle and not getting any younger. Who knows what will happen with Marcel? The Bills absolutely cannot afford to mortgage the future to draft a flashy receiver or a DE when we have one named Mario Williams. Toss in the uncertain situation at QB and there can be no justification for trading up that I can come to grips with. This team needs an abundance of good draft choices. Let's see if EJ can play qb, and let's see if the Syracuse Crony Crew can coach this football team. If they cannot, they should all be fired and Brandon too should be shown the door.
YoloinOhio Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I gotta admit, it's nice (however rare) to be on the same page with you. :0 I will take it a step further Promo. I think it would be self serving and irresponsible of Whaley, Marrone, and most of all Brandon to trade away the future of this franchise. It's even worse given the arrest of Dareus. We might very well have an unforeseen hole at DT. KW is very good but he is a bit brittle and not getting any younger. Who knows what will happen with Marcel? The Bills absolutely cannot afford to mortgage the future to draft a flashy receiver or a DE when we have one named Mario Williams. Toss in the uncertain situation at QB and there can be no justification for trading up that I can come to grips with. This team needs an abundance of good draft choices. Let's see if EJ can play qb, and let's see if the Syracuse Crony Crew can coach this football team. If they cannot, they should all be fired and Brandon too should be shown the door. I hate the idea of going up to 1 or 2. Moving up to 6 or so for Evans is fine if only giving up a 3rd. But not interested in giving up pick 41 or 1st/2nd rd picks next year.
K-9 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I hate the idea of going up to 1 or 2. Moving up to 6 or so for Evans is fine if only giving up a 3rd. But not interested in giving up pick 41 or 1st/2nd rd picks next year. Was Bennett worth it? GO BILLS!!!
swede316 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Fortune favors the brave! This team hasn't made the playoffs in how long? It comes down to management feeling if Clowney is the next Bruce Smith...if so...By all means pull the trigger! If not...move to 6 for Evans. Just get a weapon..whether it be Defensive or Offensive.
KOKBILLS Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Someone takes the scientific approach to what I've been saying and backs me up. Trading up is fool's gold. http://www.vox.com/2...rs-irrationally PTR I'm glad some folks were smart enough to put some real numbers behind what has seemed obvious to me forever...It also makes me wonder if Jimmy Johnson did not know this kind of thing all along and set the values accordingly because he was more likely to trade down then to trade up...
KOKBILLS Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Was Bennett worth it? GO BILLS!!! When you already have Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Will Wolford, Darryl Talley, etc...and you just Drafted Shane Conlon and Nate Odomes...Then yes...I would say he was well worth it...I don't think this roster is remotely close to where that roster was at the time...Mainly because of the QB position...But I could be wrong... They had almost everything in place in 87 to make a Playoff run, and they knew they needed to add a legit running mate for Bruce...Biscuit was a perfect fit...Plus...I don't think it can be ignored that in order to take the next step towards being a Championship team they had to make one of the best 2nd round picks in NFL history with Thurman Thomas...Biscuit was just a piece...But it did put the Bills on the map as a team that was serious about winning...It put the NFL on notice for sure...And I'm certain it had a major effect on the locker room...Only time would tell if a bold move up like that would pan out for this team...But I think overall the odds are against it...That's not to say it would not work...It's just risky as hell...
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Picks 1-2 no way, picks 3-7 sure if it's a guy they think immediately makes the team better.
K-9 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) When you already have Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Will Wolford, Darryl Talley, etc...and you just Drafted Shane Conlon and Nate Odomes...Then yes...I would say he was well worth it...I don't think this roster is remotely close to where that roster was at the time...Mainly because of the QB position...But I could be wrong... They had almost everything in place in 87 to make a Playoff run, and they knew they needed to add a legit running mate for Bruce...Biscuit was a perfect fit...Plus...I don't think it can be ignored that in order to take the next step towards being a Championship team they had to make one of the best 2nd round picks in NFL history with Thurman Thomas...Biscuit was just a piece...But it did put the Bills on the map as a team that was serious about winning...It put the NFL on notice for sure...And I'm certain it had a major effect on the locker room...Only time would tell if a bold move up like that would pan out for this team...But I think overall the odds are against it...That's not to say it would not work...It's just risky as hell... I'll take that as a yes, then. Biscuit immediately changed the entire dynamic of the AFCE. Immediately. And that is not hyperbole in the least. And half the town was ready to run Polian out of the city for mortgaging the future. We had pieces on offense, but we were coming off a 4-12 season in '86 with a young team and question marks all over the place. Nobody knew what we had, only what we hoped for. TT was just a pipe dream and Lofton was far off. Nobody was convinced we were ascendant coming off Kelly's rookie year, which was sporadic. And we were horrific on defense as well. It took major balls for Polian to make that deal. But he saw a generational talent that he believed would immediately pay dividends. And he was right. No reason we can't be right again. GO BILLS!!! Edited May 8, 2014 by K-9
KOKBILLS Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I'll take that as a yes, then. Biscuit immediately changed the entire dynamic of the AFCE. Immediately. And that is not hyperbole in the least. And half the town was ready to run Polian out of the city for mortgaging the future. We had pieces on offense, but we were coming off a 4-12 season in '86 with a young team and question marks all over the place. Nobody knew what we had, only what we hoped for. TT was just a pipe dream and Lofton was far off. Nobody was convinced we were ascendant coming off Kelly's rookie year, which was sporadic. And we were horrific on defense as well. It took major balls for Polian to make that deal. But he saw a generational talent that he believed would immediately pay dividends. And he was right. No reason we can't be right again. GO BILLS!!! Well...Considering that Biscuit is my favorite NFL player of all time...I can only hope we would be that right again...
K-9 Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Well...Considering that Biscuit is my favorite NFL player of all time...I can only hope we would be that right again... One of my all time favorites as well. Loved him in college and KNEW he was destined for greatness and I was pissed the Colts got him. I'm still miffed that he refused to stay in Buffalo. I know he objected to being moved to the inside in the 34, that he wanted the big bucks of an outside backer who rushes the passer. But as good as he was on the outside, he was even better on the inside. I maintain had he agreed to make the permanent switch to ILB, he would have had an HOF career. GO BILLS!!!
Reed83HOF Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Someone takes the scientific approach to what I've been saying and backs me up. Trading up is fool's gold. http://www.vox.com/2...rs-irrationa PTR It depends on the position and the article/research was missing out on this. The position I am speaking of is QB, especially now with the game skewered in favor of the QB and a passing offense; these are the players you trade up to get. That once in a generation DE with freak ability is one too (Mario Williams and Peppers were not those players...Clowney may be very well be. Did he have an off year and take it easy? Yeah - kid didn't want to get injured and wanted to get into the NFL. The year before when he played - lights out.... Those are the players you trade up to the top 2 or 3 picks to get. Never trade up for a CB, DT, OL, LB. WRs are too hard to guess on as well
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