IS JIM SCHWARTZ A DINOSAUR???

[NoSaint]

The Bills made moves in FA and will draft accordingly to what Schwartz wants to run. We had a 4-3 in 2012 and had the personnel then, The only guy we lost since then outside of Byrd was Carrington, correct? Replaced with Branch. Why do you think we don't have the right personnel? Serious question, I feel like I am missing something,

 

Realistically, because we flop back and forth, there will consistently be a few spots that might not be great fits. Like where Lawson/Hughes go and if either work at the other DE spot? Or backup at either DE spot? That year we signed Anderson who never filled the other DE spot and that was part of the trouble. That Dline fell apart fast for us (wanny deserves blame on scheme but it's oft forgotten that we were pretty dinged up front which is the heart and soul of his scheme too)

[jr1]

The 10 Most Important Dinosaurs You've Never Heard Of

[YoloinOhio]

Did you watch the defense in 2012? 22nd in the league. If anything your validating my concerns.

I'm confused now. I'm talking about the personnel being the same from last year, which was 4-3 personnel. Because they ran a 4-3 the year before. They did not run a 3-4 last year. The most frequent defense we was was the nickel, IMO. Pettine didn't run a true 4-3 or 3-4. Edited April 27, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[DOGNESS]

On another note are we expected to be cheerleaders here? This team hasnt made the playoffs in thirteen years(or is it fourteen). I LOVE(YES LOVE) alot of what theyve done. I think Whaley has done a tremendous job with the acquisition of talent in the short time hes been GM. He reminds me alot of Polian when Polian was the new Bills GM. Very good drafter. Even better at getting cast offs from other teams to come in here and contribute(Mike Williams was a steal for a 6th rounder). But we are talking about the same head coach who refuses to fire his best friend(crossman) despite lousy special teams play(something that completely undermines Marrones credibility IMO). So I thinks its valid to be a bit concerned over the guy he chose to replace Pettine.(Personally I would have looked at an assistant from another team whose philosophy is similar to Pettines. Somebody off Pittsburghs staff perhaps)

[Wayne Cubed]

Realistically, because we flop back and forth, there will consistently be a few spots that might not be great fits. Like where Lawson/Hughes go and if either work at the other DE spot? Or backup at either DE spot? That year we signed Anderson who never filled the other DE spot and that was part of the trouble. That Dline fell apart fast for us (wanny deserves blame on scheme but it's oft forgotten that we were pretty dinged up front which is the heart and soul of his scheme too)

 

When Hughes was on the field last year, he lined up at the DE spot, albeit on passing downs, so he can play DE. I think the Bills know he can't play running downs and this is where DE depth is needed. Of course they could always go a bit bigger in the DE spot and put Branch there.

[DOGNESS]

I'm confused now. I'm talking about the personnel being the same from last year, which was 4-3 personnel. Because they ran a 4-3 the year before. They did not run a 3-4 last year. The most frequent defense we was was the nickel, IMO. Pettine didn't run a true 4-3 or 3-4.

2012 would be two years ago. 2013 was last year. So Im just as confused as you.

 

I just hope the addition of Schwartz doesnt mean the end of Nickell Roby blitizing on third and long. Yea thats a real oversimplification but it captures the essense of what im talking about. Or them blitzing two DB's high so the QB steps up into Mario(something they did quite a bit last year).

[NoSaint]

 

 

When Hughes was on the field last year, he lined up at the DE spot, albeit on passing downs, so he can play DE. I think the Bills know he can't play running downs and this is where DE depth is needed. Of course they could always go a bit bigger in the DE spot and put Branch there.

 

Definitely not trying to be doom and gloom. Realistically Hughes is a question mark again this year. In a more lineup and beat your man scheme (indys cover 2) he struggled early in his career. He may have turned the page, or he may have had a DC find the perfect role.... Schwartz may put him in the same spots even.... It'll be interesting to see how things unfold. A basic 43 has won the Super Bowl against the pats. Everyone up front just has to play great. Luckily we have a couple great players and a guy like Hughes who has potential to be impactful.

 

2012 would be two years ago. 2013 was last year. So Im just as confused as you.

 

I just hope the addition of Schwartz doesnt mean the end of Nickell Roby blitizing on third and long. Yea thats a real oversimplification but it captures the essense of what im talking about. Or them blitzing two DB's high so the QB steps up into Mario(something they did quite a bit last year).

He's getting at the assessment that we tried to go all in on a 43 front just 2 years ago and if anything are just as close, if not closer, to having ideal personnel for it now (with improved lbs and essentially the same line) and that in 2013 we saw plenty of 4 man fronts because pettine used personnel we had from that 43 in their natural roles often.

[ALLEN1QB]

As the season goes on I don't think defensive coordinator will be the big issue I think our biggest problem is still the offense of coordinator and failure to address this problem in the offseason will come back to bite us guarantee it

[Wayne Cubed]

Definitely not trying to be doom and gloom. Realistically Hughes is a question mark again this year. In a more lineup and beat your man scheme (indys cover 2) he struggled early in his career. He may have turned the page, or he may have had a DC find the perfect role.... Schwartz may put him in the same spots even.... It'll be interesting to see how things unfold. A basic 43 has won the Super Bowl against the pats. Everyone up front just has to play great. Luckily we have a couple great players and a guy like Hughes who has potential to be impactful.

 

A 4-3 just won the Super Bowl this year in Seattle. Yea, it was a 4-3 under, which just slides the line over towards the weak side, but it's still a line up and beat your guy defense. The 4-3 under has been around since Monte Kiffin came up with it in the 70s.

 

I think fans get too caught up in the scheme, whether its 4-3 or 3-4 or hybrid or whatever. To me, it's not about the scheme, it's about the players.

[Bangarang]

Actually your missing my point on a couple fronts. The concern about the 4-3 on my end is that we dont have the personnel for a traditional 4-3. We did not run a traditional 4-3 last year. Schwartz didnt run a hybrid scheme when he was in Detroit or Tennessee. My second concern is that Schwartz success asa d-coordinator goes back 5-10 years. This game changes quickly as we and Dave Wannstadt learned the hard way. I dont care what scheme they run so long as it fits the personel of this team and I think you need another DE( 6'4' 280 lbs type player) to run Schwartzs scheme. I also dont buy into this we have to learn to beat people one on one. The game has changed. Scheming is more important than ever to get to the QB. The days of lining them up and rushing everyone straight up the field are over unless you have elite talent. I think we have some pretty solid players but not the kind where you can just send 4 guys straight up the field and expect to get to the QB. Pettine was a master at creating mismatches. That shouldnt be ignored. Not saying Schwartz is terrible, just voicing concerns over some of his comments. He sounds just like Wannstadt did when he got the job(from a philosophical stand point).

 

What kind of scheme did Pettine run last year? What does Schwartz typically have his defenses do and how does he line them up?

 

To understand your concerns it would be easier to understand your point of view and not just simply stating 4-3, hybrid, traditional 4-3 etc.

[DefenseWinzChampionshipz]

 

 

I guess the worry is for many years he wasn't one of the best DCs around.... Atleast statistically.

 

He was low ranked for a long time in Tennessee (basically every year that haynesworth wasn't playing like 100m man), and his teams in Detroit weren't as good as his reputation either. His rush defense for instance was ranked highly on total yards but that was because of the low number of carries faced. His ypc allowed was pretty middle of the pack.

 

That's not to say he can't be successful but 1-1 battles, low blitz percentage 43 is his MO in the past. Good or bad, philosophically, his schemes had a lot in common with wanny- lets hope Mario is healthy, kw is healthy, Marcell isn't dealing with tragedy and our other DE isn't on IR immediately... With talent it can be an effective scheme (see giants, or a few of schwartzs better years) but it asks a lot of the front 4 and we need them to be 100%. If he's sticking around, expect us to invest heavily in the front four year in and year out.

 

Or maybe he takes a left turn philosophically.... We will see

 

What's the statistic on NFL head coaches who are let go and become coordinators again? My guess is, they kick ass as coordinators after losing a head coaching job and feel like they have much to prove. Or, maybe they just simply ARE better coordinators and can't seem to overlook EVERYTHING as a head coach.

[NoSaint]

 

 

What's the statistic on NFL head coaches who are let go and become coordinators again? My guess is, they kick ass as coordinators after losing a head coaching job and feel like they have much to prove. Or, maybe they just simply ARE better coordinators and can't seem to overlook EVERYTHING as a head coach.

 

They were likely good coordinators before, and end up getting a chance to stick with a good team and show that again. All I was getting at is his reputation may outpace his results.. If I had to bet, I'd guess he ends up a good coordinator for us. I wouldn't say its a result of being motivated or wanting to prove it as much as he's a decent coach that's being dropped in what should be a decent fit with a lot of talent.

Edited April 27, 2014 by NoSaint

[Doc]

The Bills started every game last year in a 4-3 with a DL of Mario-Marcel-Kyle-Carrington/Branch. From there depending on opponent, down, and distance, the defense changed. So they're not "going" to the 4-3; they're staying with it. And they still have the same DL players (except Carrington, who missed all but 3 games last year, but adding another DE would be a good move) but have upgraded their LB'ing corps.

[DefenseWinzChampionshipz]

 

 

They were likely good coordinators before, and end up getting a chance to stick with a good team and show that again. All I was getting at is his reputation may outpace his results.. If I had to bet, I'd guess he ends up a good coordinator for us. I wouldn't say its a result of being motivated or wanting to prove it as much as he's a decent coach that's being dropped in what should be a decent fit with a lot of talent.

 

Nor was I implying you said anything really. It really WAS an honest question to you on my part. I personally feel by getting demoted, you can either take a break (unmotivated, tired, give up), or come back as a coordinator (motivated, something to prove, get head coaching job again). Is it not the goal of every coordinator to become a head coach?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Seattle plays the most basic D in the NFL.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Nor was I implying you said anything really. It really WAS an honest question to you on my part. I personally feel by getting demoted, you can either take a break (unmotivated, tired, give up), or come back as a coordinator (motivated, something to prove, get head coaching job again). Is it not the goal of every coordinator to become a head coach?

 

In theory, most likely have that goal. Though after being a head coach some may find they enjoy being a manager instead of an executive. Many are probably highly motivated, some may be worn out. And with any high level role things like talent in the organization or fit to the philosophy of the organization are all variables.

 

I'd be curious if guys tend to do better or worse when comparing their first job after a HC gig than the one before. If that changes for guys with a HC that's specialty is the same side of the ball could be an interesting variable.

 

Schwartz, as a guy with a very long track record as opposed to a young guy like say josh mcdaniels who would be a wild card if we hired him fresh out of Denver, probably returns to some sort of mean that we've seen before. Smart, well prepared, a bit vanilla in scheme and will rise and fall with his talent on the front 4 a bit more than most (though all do, really)... Probably top half of the league with this group but probably not a guy that the board will be excited about as the scheme isn't flashy, probably not 60 sacks and not league leading turnovers, and I don't peg the results as top 5 but reliable and good - not likely wanny/spags 2012 results with a similar vanilla 43 but theres always a worry it'll go south if 1-2 injuries hit.

[GunnerBill]

I don't think it is more scheme than players, and I'm pretty sure Mike Pettine said something very similar last off-season. Also we didn't blitz a whole amount last year. We lined up with generally 4 down linemen and they beat their guys and penetrated. There was the Nickel blitz that we used to good effect on a number of occasions, but it wasn't exotic blitz after exotic blitz. It was about doing just enough scheme wise to give guys 1v1 opportunities and then letting them do the rest. As long as Schwartz sticks to that kind of philosophical starting point I'm confident he will run a successful defense.

 

EDIT: Agree with the above... I think fewer sacks... somewhere mid to late 40s probably but on the flip side more consistent run D. That's my expectation anyway.

Edited April 27, 2014 by GunnerBill

[hondo in seattle]

Actually your missing my point on a couple fronts. The concern about the 4-3 on my end is that we dont have the personnel for a traditional 4-3. We did not run a traditional 4-3 last year. Schwartz didnt run a hybrid scheme when he was in Detroit or Tennessee. My second concern is that Schwartz success asa d-coordinator goes back 5-10 years. This game changes quickly as we and Dave Wannstadt learned the hard way. I dont care what scheme they run so long as it fits the personel of this team and I think you need another DE( 6'4' 280 lbs type player) to run Schwartzs scheme. I also dont buy into this we have to learn to beat people one on one. The game has changed. Scheming is more important than ever to get to the QB. The days of lining them up and rushing everyone straight up the field are over unless you have elite talent. I think we have some pretty solid players but not the kind where you can just send 4 guys straight up the field and expect to get to the QB. Pettine was a master at creating mismatches. That shouldnt be ignored. Not saying Schwartz is terrible, just voicing concerns over some of his comments. He sounds just like Wannstadt did when he got the job(from a philosophical stand point).

 

I think the comment about winning one-on-one battles is misleading. I don't think Schwartz is opposed to scheming. But he wants to emphasize the important of individuals skills and the necessity of winning one-on-one. If your players aren't good enough to win one-on-one battles, the scheme won't really matter. The best defenses - whether 4-3, 3-4, hybrid, or something else - have good players.

 

I think the comment about winning one-on-one battles is misleading. I don't think Schwartz is opposed to scheming. But he wants to emphasize the important of individuals skills and the necessity of winning one-on-one. If your players aren't good enough to win one-on-one battles, the scheme won't really matter. The best defenses - whether 4-3, 3-4, hybrid, or something else - have good players.

 

Having said that, I'm not super confident in JS. His resume has some successes... and some blemishes.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Most fans talk about the front 7 whenever they speak about a defense. There are many different types of coverages as well. Schwartz will play a variety of coverages based on situations. A lot more to being a DC then just running a scheme.

[PromoTheRobot]

Whatever we do we should have done the other thing.