BUNCH OF MULARKEY Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 First: some of it is not Ebron per se, but the value of a TE. Historically, TEs just don't hold value in the top 10, with many of the best TEs being in 3rd and 4th Rounds, Gates, Graham, Witten, Jordan Cameron, Julius Thomas, etc...Gonzalez is the last 1st round TE to have really made an impact, Pettigrew anyone? Eifert? Now, Eifert - to be fair - may have a phenomenal 2nd year, but that's really my point...even Gronk was a 2nd and his homicidal cohort was a 4th Rounder...the best TEs, tend to be Drafted in the middle rounds due to their NFL particular skill-set and the freakish athletes at TEs, don't seem to transition well to the NFL and the good TEs usually take a year or two...in another thread I posted some of those same TEs first year stats, when discussing Gragg...it really is amazing.. Second: again nothing against Ebron personally, I just don't think he fits well with Buffalo and their Offense, within their Division. Many people talk about Graham like he's a god at TE, but he plays in New Orleans at an indoor facility in the NFC South, so he travels to Tampa Bay and North Carolina, not NE in December or play at home in the snow against Green Bay....and you can take a look at his numbers, they don't hold up "as well" in cold, snowy, rainy weather...there's a reason for that...his speed and athleticism in jumping make him a great target, but not for Buffalo...Buffalo does better with a C.J. Fiedorowicz type player, big body can block and catch but won't take the top off a Defense, find a seam and get a 7 yard catch run a couple yards to move the chains...and as much as I hate saying this Gronk, is the ideal type TE for Buffalo...it sucks, but true and a reason why he's doing so well in NE (well...that a guy named Brady) Third: I'm not sold on Ebron as the football player...I think he's truly gifted and has speed...but I don't like his drops, I question his ability to block and I'm not sure he'd be the type of player to come in line with a HC like Marrone...so, those are the three main reasons... Apologize, if I came off as bullish or just a plain a*shole, it's just all this Ebron love on this board drives me a batsh*t crazy....philosophically, not personally You didn't come off as a jerk at all. Great points and well put together. I sort of go back and forth when it comes to Ebron for the Bills... and today I want them to take him, if it is at 9 that's OK but if they can trade down to say 16 and get him, even better. He will not make it past the Jets at 18, IMO. The reasons I think he is the best pick for the Bills in the 1st is that he is a mismatch for defenses to game plan for. He is hard for DBs and LBs alike to cover. He upgrades two offensive areas at once - big red zone WR target and TE. I agree he doesn't fit the offense we saw last year from Marrone and Hackett... but that could be because they didn't have someone like him to create that type of offense. Just be stepping on the field, he opens things up for our other WRs. He could play in 2 TE sets with Chandler. He can line up as a WR. He can develop into a better blocker. He is only 21. He has an awesome personality and is a team leader. He is very enthusiastic with a big attitude. I think he will be Vernon Davis. They don't come around often. As far as the cold, snowy, rainy weather... any of these prospects from the South have to overcome the same question. Like Polian says, if you are picking in the top 10, you should pick someone who can score or stop the other team from scoring. They will throw it up to him in the endzone. He is 6'4 250, his size and athleticism combined will be more than the guy trying to cover him most of the time and I like that matchup. Thanks for saying it for me haha. Only other thing I have is that this franchise has never had a true weapon at TE as long as I can remember. Whether or not Ebron can be that is what this is all about.
FluffHead Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 The fact that Doug so willingly praised Watkins,Evans and Clowny in the interview is telling me that he is either not interested or thinks that they will not be available.Suspiciously quiet on Ebron, coupled with the fact that John Murphy dedicated a good portion of last nights show on him. Is Murph hearing whispers around the complex, I'm thinking this is the case. I had this thought last night listening to murph. Two weeks ago he was talking up Chandler and poo pooing Eric Ebron. His tune has shifted dramatically on that. I wondered if he may have a hint that the Bills love Ebron.
YoloinOhio Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I had this thought last night listening to murph. Two weeks ago he was talking up Chandler and poo pooing Eric Ebron. His tune has shifted dramatically on that. I wondered if he may have a hint that the Bills love Ebron. Murphy was really talking Ebron last night, I agree. For me, this was exciting. I mean, to go so far as to have the play by play guy from UNC football as a guest on his show? Lol. Either he is low on guests or the Bills told him to get the fans excited.
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 I had this thought last night listening to murph. Two weeks ago he was talking up Chandler and poo pooing Eric Ebron. His tune has shifted dramatically on that. I wondered if he may have a hint that the Bills love Ebron. There was a thread a while back regarding surprise Bills' cuts for this season. I posted that it would be Chandler. If the Bills do wind up taking Ebron, it'll be thanks for your past contributions, but see ya Scott!
FluffHead Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Murphy was really talking Ebron last night, I agree. For me, this was exciting. I mean, to go so far as to have the play by play guy from UNC football as a guest on his show? Lol. Either he is low on guests or the Bills told him to get the fans excited. I just couldn't believe how much Murph's opinion of the player changed. He was very anti TE just a few weeks ago. He either had a dramatic shift in philosophy or someone in the organization swayed him.
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 There was a thread a while back regarding surprise Bills' cuts for this season. I posted that it would be Chandler. If the Bills do wind up taking Ebron, it'll be thanks for your past contributions, but see ya Scott! why cut a cheap effective vet like chandler this quick? (not to mention wed be eating a 1.9m cap hit on whats less than a 5m contract total)
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 why cut a cheap effective vet like chandler this quick? (not to mention wed be eating a 1.9m cap hit on whats less than a 5m contract total) How many snaps would Chandler get with Ebron on the team? Bye Scott.
YoloinOhio Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 There was a thread a while back regarding surprise Bills' cuts for this season. I posted that it would be Chandler. If the Bills do wind up taking Ebron, it'll be thanks for your past contributions, but see ya Scott! Maybe but these two are very different players. I think Ebron is almost a huge WR that can line up different ways. I would say that Gragg or Moeaki would be vying for that 3rd spot. Kauffman to the PS. Chandler is cheap and he knows what he is doing. I think he stays regardless of who they draft. JMO though.
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 Maybe but these two are very different players. I think Ebron is almost a huge WR that can line up different ways. I would say that Gragg or Moeaki would be vying for that 3rd spot. Kauffman to the PS. Chandler is cheap and he knows what he is doing. I think he stays regardless of who they draft. JMO though. Both are primarily receiving options at the TE position. No need for both of them IMO especially if Moeaki is fully healthy. WRT Gragg, who knows? But if he has developed since the end of last season, it's even less of a need to keep Chandler. We'll see what happens.
KOKBILLS Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 There was a thread a while back regarding surprise Bills' cuts for this season. I posted that it would be Chandler. If the Bills do wind up taking Ebron, it'll be thanks for your past contributions, but see ya Scott! I would be shocked... He led the Bills in receiving last year...He's not expensive...He's a vet...He's 6-7...I just don't see it...I think Moeaki would be in big trouble if we Drafted Ebron though...
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 I would be shocked... He led the Bills in receiving last year...He's not expensive...He's a vet...He's 6-7...I just don't see it...I think Moeaki would be in big trouble if we Drafted Ebron though... Perfect indication of why the Bills were 6-10. If Chandler is your leading receiver, your team sucks!
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) First: some of it is not Ebron per se, but the value of a TE. Historically, TEs just don't hold value in the top 10, with many of the best TEs being in 3rd and 4th Rounds, Gates, Graham, Witten, Jordan Cameron, Julius Thomas, etc...Gonzalez is the last 1st round TE to have really made an impact, Pettigrew anyone? Eifert? Now, Eifert - to be fair - may have a phenomenal 2nd year, but that's really my point...even Gronk was a 2nd and his homicidal cohort was a 4th Rounder...the best TEs, tend to be Drafted in the middle rounds due to their NFL particular skill-set and the freakish athletes at TEs, don't seem to transition well to the NFL and the good TEs usually take a year or two...in another thread I posted some of those same TEs first year stats, when discussing Gragg...it really is amazing.. Second: again nothing against Ebron personally, I just don't think he fits well with Buffalo and their Offense, within their Division. Many people talk about Graham like he's a god at TE, but he plays in New Orleans at an indoor facility in the NFC South, so he travels to Tampa Bay and North Carolina, not NE in December or play at home in the snow against Green Bay....and you can take a look at his numbers, they don't hold up "as well" in cold, snowy, rainy weather...there's a reason for that...his speed and athleticism in jumping make him a great target, but not for Buffalo...Buffalo does better with a C.J. Fiedorowicz type player, big body can block and catch but won't take the top off a Defense, find a seam and get a 7 yard catch run a couple yards to move the chains...and as much as I hate saying this Gronk, is the ideal type TE for Buffalo...it sucks, but true and a reason why he's doing so well in NE (well...that a guy named Brady) Third: I'm not sold on Ebron as the football player...I think he's truly gifted and has speed...but I don't like his drops, I question his ability to block and I'm not sure he'd be the type of player to come in line with a HC like Marrone...so, those are the three main reasons... Apologize, if I came off as bullish or just a plain a*shole, it's just all this Ebron love on this board drives me a batsh*t crazy....philosophically, not personally appreciate the well thought out post, and it doesnt seem aggressive at all.... i dont know that i agree with it, but i cant say that im right and your wrong either.... i will give my opinion though, for whatever its worth 1) I think we are seeing a pretty swift change in the position the last handful of years. while i will agree that most of your examples are pretty current - the dynamic tight ends are climbing draft boards and their contracts are growing fast than other positions. Jimmy Graham was a midrounder a few years ago, but i think he would have been a late round/udfa a decade ago (had 200 receiving yards in his college career). its part of why you see the potential battles over the franchise tag numbers - they are outpacing their historical share of resources. the elite are far more exceptional specimens with bigger impacts on the game than they ever have been. Is ebron that guy? i dont know. you have to like the build, and hes very talented but hes a step slower than vernon davis and the production question marks seem fair to me. especially if the argument is he makes a middle of the pack qb better because he can "go up and get it." - but why wasnt he doing that more? 2) this one i think you are a mile off on. Jimmy graham has produced very well in various field conditions (though not played a ton in the elements, as you note). last year he was pretty beat up come december and probably shouldnt have been on the field. then you are coupling in things like traveling to seattle twice (quite different than being seattles tight end, as far as being an offensive player in that stadium and a tough matchup even if it wouldve been in a dome), and that the saints offense as a whole struggled against good opponents on the road. too many packages, too much reliance on timing plays against physical teams, etc.... i dont think it was any kind of indictment on elite tight ends playing in the elements, but a variety of issues with the saints and grahams health. 3) very fair questions. not an expert here, and wont claim to know the answer with any certainty (even the experts dont) -- but i will say 1 & 2 do not make me want to bump him down as a systematic approach. im not rushing to get an elite TE at #3 in the draft but i think they are established in the first half of round 1... just a matter of if HE is worthy. Edited April 25, 2014 by NoSaint
YoloinOhio Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Perfect indication of why the Bills were 6-10. If Chandler is your leading receiver, your team sucks! I think it also had to to do with the fact that the only WR who played in every game was TJ Graham. But yeah, TE as leading WR = no bueno.
KOKBILLS Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Perfect indication of why the Bills were 6-10. If Chandler is your leading receiver, your team sucks! And that's Chandler's fault? I'm not following that logic? So...Because Mario led the team in sacks, and we sucked while going 6-10, we should cut him if we Draft Clowney?
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 And that's Chandler's fault? I'm not following that logic? So...Because Mario led the team in sacks, and we sucked while going 6-10, we should cut him if we Draft Clowney? I should have phrased that better. I'm not saying it's his fault. I'm saying he's the personification of a mediocre NFL player who's the equivalent of 6-10 talent.
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 How many snaps would Chandler get with Ebron on the team? Bye Scott. probably a pretty full workload. and weve already paid him a 1.2m signing bonus within the last few weeks. i hate to call it fact, because the nfl is full of surprises, but its pretty close in my book that he has already made the roster.
KOKBILLS Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I should have phrased that better. I'm not saying it's his fault. I'm saying he's the personification of a mediocre NFL player who's the equivalent of 6-10 talent. I hear ya...And I understand Chandler is not the most talented guy...But I think he is more talented than Moeaki or Lee Smith (though I know Smith is more of a blocker)...I just think if you're trying to build a Championship roster you can do worse than having Scott Chandler around...That's all...
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I should have phrased that better. I'm not saying it's his fault. I'm saying he's the personification of a mediocre NFL player who's the equivalent of 6-10 talent. yup - but as a #2 hes the personification of a great role player on a very good team. the pats still wanted hernandez, the saints picked up ben watson as a reliable vet #2, behind vernon davis was delanie walker.... a good pairing is a positive. unless you can outline what we gain i think you are the one showing how to be 6-10 when ebron struggles, or is hurt for a few games, or...
26CornerBlitz Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 yup - but as a #2 hes the personification of a great role player on a very good team. the pats still wanted hernandez, the saints picked up ben watson as a reliable vet #2, behind vernon davis was delanie walker.... a good pairing is a positive. unless you can outline what we gain i think you are the one showing how to be 6-10 when ebron struggles, or is hurt for a few games, or... The team has perennially been somewhere around 6-10 for far too long. Are you trying to tell me Chandler's removal prevents them from getting a better result?
NoSaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 The team has perennially been somewhere around 6-10 for far too long. Are you trying to tell me Chandler's removal prevents them from getting a better result? without a replacement, sure. especially when hes already bought and paid for. and youve made no argument contrary besides the win loss record
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