Please sign Richie Incognito

[Hapless Bills Fan]

He's graded higher than Williams in every metric. That sounds like he's better.

 

Care to share your source? Thanks! Much obliged.

 

After doing some research on Chris Williams , the Bills could be better off with Richie on a very short leash.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Care to tell us what in your research leads you to think so?

 

Richie didn't even play the full year, so those numbers are irrelevant.

Richie Incognito was the 9th best interior O-lineman in 2012. What was Legursky?

I already said I don't know if Williams is better than Incognito, but I don't know if he isn't either.

You should stop using team or unit stats for individual players though. It doesn't make sense.

 

In the post to which I was responding, you said Incognito is better than Legursky, End of Argument.

Clearly that's silly, since it ignored the Williams signing. If you acknowledged the Williams signing in another post and stated that you didn't know, one way or the other, how they compare, that's progress.

 

I posted two links and suggested their rankings were food for thought.

Unlike a WR or DB or RB, an offensive line MUST play as a cohesive unit, so arguably, unit or team stats are the only stats that matter for an OL.

 

If you care to post a link to your metrics, I"ll be happy to give them a look and see what I think though. I'm not sure where you're sourcing the "9th best interior OLman in 2012" and "better in every metric" bits and I don't want to discuss a chimera.

[GunnerBill]

I invited you to share any compelling evidence you came upon while reading it.

 

Well for a start there are the text messages. Not the ones that made the headlines where they are both using racist language, but the group text messages about Martin's sister where it is very clear that Martin wants them to stop. There is the fact that people from inside the organisation who were interviewed confirmed that they witnessed the squirting of water bottles in sexual reference to Martin's sister on more than one occasion during pre-practice warm ups. There was the Vegas incident, there was the occasion when Incognito laid into Martin physically to the extent that he had to be pulled away and he was laughing. Then there is the fine book, which Incognito knew blew his argument that Martin wasn't being "singled out" out of the water and hence withheld from the investigators and tried to have destroyed. Then there is the treatment of the anonymous player A, again ring led by Incognito, the treatment of Nate Garner and then there is the treatment of the Asian trainer (which is the only bit of the report where I find behaviour that does have racist undertones).

 

None of those things on their own constitute a game changing piece of evidence. But they do to my mind exactly what Ted Wells believed they do - they constitute a pattern of behaviour a pattern of harassment. The fact that the treatment intensified in Martin's second year after he had attempted to pass it off as "hazing" in his rookie year is why I believe it was intentionally relentless. I never felt reading the report that the treatment of Martin was about race. To me it was someone desperate to present himself as the leader of the pack and picking on the weakest member he could in an attempt to assert that authority. Incognito's bullying of Martin was about himself more than it was about Martin and that gets right to heart of what most bullying is.

Edited April 26, 2014 by GunnerBill

[PromoTheRobot]

Don't know if this was mentioned but RI made it clear he wouldn't resign with the Bills. Team? Weather? City? Whatever reason he didn't want to be here.

Edited April 26, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[xsoldier54]

I think you've consumed a bit too much Utica Club this morning.

It's Dooley and Schultz doing the talking.

[Rob's House]

 

 

Well for a start there are the text messages. Not the ones that made the headlines where they are both using racist language, but the group text messages about Martin's sister where it is very clear that Martin wants them to stop. There is the fact that people from inside the organisation who were interviewed confirmed that they witnessed the squirting of water bottles in sexual reference to Martin's sister on more than one occasion during pre-practice warm ups. There was the Vegas incident, there was the occasion when Incognito laid into Martin physically to the extent that he had to be pulled away and he was laughing. Then there is the fine book, which Incognito knew blew his argument that Martin wasn't being "singled out" out of the water and hence withheld from the investigators and tried to have destroyed. Then there is the treatment of the anonymous player A, again ring led by Incognito, the treatment of Nate Garner and then there is the treatment of the Asian trainer (which is the only bit of the report where I find behaviour that does have racist undertones).

 

None of those things on their own constitute a game changing piece of evidence. But they do to my mind exactly what Ted Wells believed they do - they constitute a pattern of behaviour a pattern of harassment. The fact that the treatment intensified in Martin's second year after he had attempted to pass it off as "hazing" in his rookie year is why I believe it was intentionally relentless. I never felt reading the report that the treatment of Martin was about race. To me it was someone desperate to present himself as the leader of the pack and picking on the weakest member he could in an attempt to assert that authority. Incognito's bullying of Martin was about himself more than it was about Martin and that gets right to heart of what most bullying is.

 

Again, it may be the case, but none of that necessarily rises to the level of intentional and systematic breaking down of another. I'll share an anecdote to illustrate:

 

When I was in HS we nick named one of our friends PB (kitty Boy), which in fairness he earned, but he carried that throughout HS. Another friend was nicknamed "Dupe" Because he'd buy anything, & we told him repeatedly of the sexual exploits we intended to have with his sister. One of my best friends was Iranian & I can't tell you the number of camel !@#$er jokes we laid on him. None of it was mean spirited (w/ the possible exception of PB), and no one was being" remorselessly broken down," but to an independent third party reading transcripts of our interactions one might erroneously draw that conclusion.

 

The difference is no one had a meltdown. I did have a friend as an adult who flipped out & stormed off because we made fun of his Halo prowess (which was somewhat ongoing). It was !@#$ing weird and no one saw it building to that.

 

Again, I'm not saying whether these guys knew or should have known that Martin was crumbling underneath it all, but guys !@#$ with each other. Granted, these guys took it a little further than most, but they're also high testosterone alpha males (and apparently an obnoxious bunch at that) playing the most physical position of a very physicAl sport. Based on that evidence I can't say, but it's plausible they didn't realize the affect it was having on Martin until it was too late.

[ALF]

"Reportedly last season C. Williams ranked as the lowest-rated player on the Rams roster and got graded at 74th out of 81 qualifying guards in the league. The guard got drafted with the 14th overall pick by the Chicago Bears in 2008 and never lived up to expectations. As a result got cut midway through the 2012 season."

 

http://theinscriberm...chris-williams/

[Hapless Bills Fan]

None of those things on their own constitute a game changing piece of evidence. But they do to my mind exactly what Ted Wells believed they do - they constitute a pattern of behaviour a pattern of harassment. The fact that the treatment intensified in Martin's second year after he had attempted to pass it off as "hazing" in his rookie year is why I believe it was intentionally relentless. I never felt reading the report that the treatment of Martin was about race. To me it was someone desperate to present himself as the leader of the pack and picking on the weakest member he could in an attempt to assert that authority. Incognito's bullying of Martin was about himself more than it was about Martin and that gets right to heart of what most bullying is.

 

We had a presentation at my kid's school about bullying, part of it describing a pattern of behavior with "Mildew" and "Linda" (made up names) and a circle of girls. "Mildew" is a girl who has a lot of talent and ability and who can be charming and friendly, but instead of being a true leader she exerts her power to control others through various intimidation tactics. "Mildew" and her behavior spread throughout the group and turn what could be a positive, supportive group of friends into a psychological nightmare.

 

When I read parts of the Wells report it reminded me of that presentation, with "Incognito" as a testosterone laden male version of "Mildew".

[FireChan]

 

 

We had a presentation at my kid's school about bullying, part of it describing a pattern of behavior with "Mildew" and "Linda" (made up names) and a circle of girls. "Mildew" is a girl who has a lot of talent and ability and who can be charming and friendly, but instead of being a true leader she exerts her power to control others through various intimidation tactics. "Mildew" and her behavior spread throughout the group and turn what could be a positive, supportive group of friends into a psychological nightmare.

 

When I read parts of the Wells report it reminded me of that presentation, with "Incognito" as a testosterone laden male version of "Mildew".

 

But that was bullying between kids, right? You know, a psychological nightmare for a child, not necessarily an adult. When's the last time you were in a psychological nightmare because you got bullied?

[CSBill]

And why does this insane idea get 7 pages on TBW ? ? ?

[Webster Guy]

Incognito is overrated and an idiot...I'll pass.

 

I dont mind the idiot part. Seattle is full of them and they won the ring.

 

But I agree on the overrated part. He simply wasnt that good when he played here.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

"Reportedly last season C. Williams ranked as the lowest-rated player on the Rams roster and got graded at 74th out of 81 qualifying guards in the league. The guard got drafted with the 14th overall pick by the Chicago Bears in 2008 and never lived up to expectations. As a result got cut midway through the 2012 season."

 

http://theinscriberm...chris-williams/

 

Football fan's analysis referencing PFF ratings. From PFF comments:

"

Bill Marcellino • 3 months ago

 

 

 

 

Football Outsiders has NE ranked 1st in offensive line RB; PFF has them 21st in RB. This is because of a difference in the unit of analysis, and the analytical assumptions behind that unit of analysis. FO is looking at the line as a whole as the unit of analysis, and PFF the individual player. You end up with two very different methods based on emergent vs. reductive assumptions: a) line play is an emergent quality b) line play is reducible to individual performance. If you think line play is an emergent quality, you can't simply follow PFF's reductive approach of grading players and then simply aggregating the grades.

This is a good example of how PFF's method is likely more appropriate for more individual performances (e.g. defensive backs), but fails when applied to more complex emergences (e.g. line play)"

 

Given how effective NE Patriots run game was last year, an argument can be made that PFF's reductive analysis (which has the sum of the parts listed at 21st in run blocking) is perhaps not the most predictive of actual OL performance.

 

Note: I am not arguing C Williams was a great signing, I'm not arguing he was a crappy signing, I'm simply making the point that one must be careful with individual rankings for something like OL performance, which truly depends upon the play of the unit as a whole. Levitre didn't exactly light it up for the Titans last year, right?

 

It's worth noting that Williams was signed by the Bears ( and paid as ) a 1st round LT. He probably never had the arm length to succeed as a LT in the NFL. The Rams wanted him back, just not at the price the Bills paid. Did they overpay? Time will tell.

[Buffalo Beeeews]

Marrone said that he billieves in giving guys second chances. Richie is an !@#$, but we can be OUR !@#$! He is a hell of a guard (one of our biggest needs), i don't care how ****ty of a person he is, if he can contribute to our football that's all that matters. You want to have more primetime games, sign his dude give EJ some protection and win some !@#$ing games. I don't care about high character guys, I want mean !@#$ing dudes looking to tear some bitches heads off.

[GunnerBill]

Again, it may be the case, but none of that necessarily rises to the level of intentional and systematic breaking down of another. I'll share an anecdote to illustrate:

 

When I was in HS we nick named one of our friends PB (kitty Boy), which in fairness he earned, but he carried that throughout HS. Another friend was nicknamed "Dupe" Because he'd buy anything, & we told him repeatedly of the sexual exploits we intended to have with his sister. One of my best friends was Iranian & I can't tell you the number of camel !@#$er jokes we laid on him. None of it was mean spirited (w/ the possible exception of PB), and no one was being" remorselessly broken down," but to an independent third party reading transcripts of our interactions one might erroneously draw that conclusion.

 

The difference is no one had a meltdown. I did have a friend as an adult who flipped out & stormed off because we made fun of his Halo prowess (which was somewhat ongoing). It was !@#$ing weird and no one saw it building to that.

 

Again, I'm not saying whether these guys knew or should have known that Martin was crumbling underneath it all, but guys !@#$ with each other. Granted, these guys took it a little further than most, but they're also high testosterone alpha males (and apparently an obnoxious bunch at that) playing the most physical position of a very physicAl sport. Based on that evidence I can't say, but it's plausible they didn't realize the affect it was having on Martin until it was too late.

 

I'm afraid that your anecdote really doesn't add anything. I've been clear before that I've spent the last 15 years in semi-professional soccer locker rooms. I don't need telling how groups of guys are with one another. If this had just been the sister jokes (as distasteful as I find them and certainly in any locker room I've been involved in with any team as player or coach family has been off limits) then I could have believed that it was just banter that got a bit out of hand. But as I said above, the pattern of the behaviour, the numerous corroborating accounts, the fact that it went on and seemed to escalate over 18 months, the fact that Incognito himself knew how damning the fines book was.... I'm sorry I find it implausible that it wasn't more than some joshing taken a stage too far. It was relentless.

 

As for did they know how much it was effecting Jonathan Martin? Maybe they didn't, I'm willing to accept that is much more open to interpretation, but it's irrelevant. It's not 'ok to bully someone as long as you don't know you are bullying them.' It's wrong, pure and simple. Incognito's behaviour was that of a bully. The only and I do mean only sympathy I have with him is that I think he has taken some of the bullets for Jerry and Pouncey too. The evidence does point to Incognito as the ring leader, but it certainly doesn't do anything to exonerate the other two.

[Buffalo Beeeews]

Are you high off your a$&?! And it wouldn't be giving him a "second chance"! The guys had chance after chance after chance after chance! He needs help! He should not even be allowed to play in the league again for his actions.

[machine gun kelly]

Incognito is a punk, but was a solid guard. What is not talked about enough is I believe Martin has a problem. He was weak minded and allowed this to get out of hand. He could have stood up to Incognito early, or talked to a coach. It would have stopped. Philbin would have stopped it if he knew about it.

 

We need help at Guard, and he could be a solid pick up even if it were for depth. His last chance in the NFL is now. He has no more opportunities so someone will test drive him. Why not us? If he's not good enough he's cut.

 

If he is better then other G, and makes the team, and you don't hear anything more, what is the downside. You know Marrone would tell him he has the shortest leash, so no screw ups.

[GunnerBill]

Incognito is a punk, but was a solid guard. What is not talked about enough is I believe Martin has a problem. He was weak minded and allowed this to get out of hand. He could have stood up to Incognito early, or talked to a coach. It would have stopped.

 

Ahhh. Now we are into blame the victim territory. Nice.

[3rdand12]

Incognito is a punk, but was a solid guard. What is not talked about enough is I believe Martin has a problem. He was weak minded and allowed this to get out of hand. He could have stood up to Incognito early, or talked to a coach. It would have stopped. Philbin would have stopped it if he knew about it.

 

We need help at Guard, and he could be a solid pick up even if it were for depth. His last chance in the NFL is now. He has no more opportunities so someone will test drive him. Why not us? If he's not good enough he's cut.

 

If he is better then other G, and makes the team, and you don't hear anything more, what is the downside. You know Marrone would tell him he has the shortest leash, so no screw ups.

Yes. lets reward him for his abhorrent and potentially psychotic tendencies . These people ( ? ) return to their instincts eventually. Just a matter of time before he starts smashing things again

Lets offer him money and let him play NFL football because he might be an upgrade to Williams.

Geebus !

[FireChan]

 

 

Ahhh. Now we are into blame the victim territory. Nice.

 

Ever heard of, "if it happens to you, it's your fault"?

 

It's no surprise, or even stretch to assume that if Martin had done something different, this whole escapade would have been much less severe.

[Rob's House]

 

 

Ahhh. Now we are into blame the victim territory. Nice.

 

Are you analogizing Martin to a girl who has been raped?

[GunnerBill]

Ever heard of, "if it happens to you, it's your fault"?

 

I have. It's complete and utter rubbish.

 

Are you analogizing Martin to a girl who has been raped?

 

What? Where did you get that from?