What would be the impact of Disclosure on your politics?

[Chef Jim]

Do you have room in your theory for the possibility that they never left?

 

No. If they never left they would have bred amongst themselves and there'd be millions of them there. Have they come back to visit? Absolutely. Pretty much on Saturday nights after several Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters and they needed a good laugh.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Chef Jim

[Azalin]

 

EDIT: Another thing that could help would be if there was some sort of technology exchange. One that gives us a source of renewable free energy (something that would be needed in order to travel the stars more than likely).

 

nice post. there's a lot in there to think about, whether you agree with it or not. the bit I'm quoting is especially interesting, because I suspect it's probably most significant in relation to advancing modern civilization.

 

energy - we all use it & need it, and it exists everywhere, all around us, either unharnessed or as mass, waiting to be converted. but converting mass to energy is the tricky part.

 

one phrase that is often misused is 'renewable energy'. more correctly stated, it should be 'renewable source' of energy. I realize it sounds like I'm being picky, but I believe the distiction to be important. for example, many people believe solar power to be renewable, but it isn't. just like with petroleum, there's a limited supply (although there's a hell of a lot more of it)...we're learning to catch the sun's energy by collecting it as it arrives in the form of photons in photoelectric cells, where we can convert it to electrical energy. another way is to collect the infra-red energy via reflectors and magnify it while aiming it at a common point, where the heat is collected and used to power steam turbines. I'm sure we'll discover many other ways to collect and convert the sun's energy, but none of it will be renewable, it will all be variations on the process of converting the energy from one form to another.

 

ethanol made from corn or other plants is another renewable source, since we can continually grow more crops with which to produce the ethanol, but it's not a very efficient method of producing fuel. wind farms or water-driven generators are the closest things that I can think of offhand that would meet the true definition of 'renewable'. maybe some day we can successfully develop a method for collecting solar or cosmic radiation that can be harnessed and used to propel space vehicles....there's no reason I can think of to say that could never happen.

 

I know this thread is based in hypotheticals, but the big bugger that screws things up is light speed. it's a barrier. any beings that dwell within the confines of the physical universe are subject to it. once something is accelerated to light speed, it no longer has any mass....it becomes pure energy. Werner Heisenberg determined that you can learn a subatomic particle's velocity or it's position, but you can't learn both. it's a fundadament of quantum physics. on Star Trek, they deal with the problem of reassembling 'beamed' crewmembers with a device built into their transporters called the 'Heisenberg Compensator', a device that can determine both the velocity and the location of all subatomic particles in order to reassemble crewmembers upon arriving at their destination. but even with that mythical device, they still can't 'beam' people at light speed.

 

I suspect that instead of breaking the light speed barrier, if humanity ever comes up with a method for interstellar travel, it would have to be by way of 'skipping' across reality - possibly in the same manner that wormholes are believed to be multidimensional, but at least for now, that's all sci-fi as well. it's really intersting to speculate on though. if any of this sounds like arguement, don't take it as such. it's nice to have a chance to toss ideas like this around.

[Deranged Rhino]

By so different do you mean 99% similar? Nearly identical DNA?

 

The main difference between human beings and chimps or gorillas is that we had the breakthrough of passing on knowledge. In terms of cognitive ability, theres not a ton of difference between modern apes and our ancestors based on brain size. Other species teach their young too but none are as capable as humans when it comes to sharing and passing on knowledge. This is a crucial step. Rather than spend a lifetime merely learning how to survive man begins life with a great foundation of knowledge. From there, language and recording knowledge were not far behind. Cultivation of grain was the next step. Its remarkable what you can figure out when you're brain is nourished and you don't spend every waking moment in the pursuit of food.

 

Chimps have learned how to use tools and solve puzzles. When they can teach their offspring all that they've learned in a lifetime and their offspring are receptive to the lesson, well I for one welcome our furry overlords.

But they haven't learned. They've been around as long as us, if not longer, and they still haven't learned. I'm not sure where I fall in terms of Chef's theory, but it's impossible to deny that there was a giant physiological and neurological leap made in our species about 10,000 years ago that so far science and medicine have yet to be able to explain completely. It's called the "10,000 year explosion" because it's something that is still unexplained.

 

Aliens stepping in and "helping" our evolution is a possible explanation for this. Which is what I believe Chef is getting at.

[Metal Man]

Do you have room in your theory for the possibility that they never left?

 

Or how about have always been a part of our world but we just don't have the senses needed to perceive them?

[Chef Jim]

But they haven't learned. They've been around as long as us, if not longer, and they still haven't learned. I'm not sure where I fall in terms of Chef's theory, but it's impossible to deny that there was a giant physiological and neurological leap made in our species about 10,000 years ago that so far science and medicine have yet to be able to explain completely. It's called the "10,000 year explosion" because it's something that is still unexplained.

 

Aliens stepping in and "helping" our evolution is a possible explanation for this. Which is what I believe Chef is getting at.

 

Yup.

 

Or how about have always been a part of our world but we just don't have the senses needed to perceive them?

 

Now you're getting into Lovecraft territory.

[Deranged Rhino]

I guess it is a philosophical distinction between God and creator but I would think any life we eventually create as humans would make us God to them. In a sense we are practically Gods to any lower intelligent life we care for now like pets or livestock.

You're 100% right that it is a philosophical distinction and a debate (no right or wrong) -- but to me, the ability to create and make life does not make one God. Unless we're going to define technological capability as being akin to a deity. Which is the mistake that early man may have made when (or if) they made contact with ancient astronauts.

[Azalin]

 

Now you're getting into Lovecraft territory.

 

it's like I've always said: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

[Deranged Rhino]

No. If they never left they would have bred amongst themselves and there'd be millions of them there. Have they come back to visit? Absolutely. Pretty much on Saturday nights after several Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters and they needed a good laugh.

You're !@#$ing awesome.

 

But it is interesting to consider. Imagine, for a moment, that we discovered a planet with sentient life and were able to reach it. If we took the step to interfere and speed up (or hinder) the natural evolution of that planet's species, would we just leave? I would imagine we would keep bases or equipment to keep tabs on the process of our little experiment.

 

Especially when that experiment develops nuclear weapons and starts detonating them like fireworks in the desert, oceans and atmosphere for twenty years...

[Metal Man]

Now you're getting into Lovecraft territory.

 

Seems somewhat plausible to me.

I think of something like a pig farmer and his pigs. How much do the pigs really understand about this entity that delivers them food daily and then eventually comes and takes one of them away for no reason they can come up with. I realize our intelligence is many orders higher than that of a pig but the thought is maybe some other life form is as much, if not much more, advanced than we are. Maybe in some weird pig thought they have the same "everything happens for a purpose" mentality some humans do and this purpose is so we can have bacon.

 

I know it's far out there, and no I am not hitting a bong right now.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Metal Man

[Deranged Rhino]

nice post. there's a lot in there to think about, whether you agree with it or not. the bit I'm quoting is especially interesting, because I suspect it's probably most significant in relation to advancing modern civilization.

 

energy - we all use it & need it, and it exists everywhere, all around us, either unharnessed or as mass, waiting to be converted. but converting mass to energy is the tricky part.

 

one phrase that is often misused is 'renewable energy'. more correctly stated, it should be 'renewable source' of energy. I realize it sounds like I'm being picky, but I believe the distiction to be important. for example, many people believe solar power to be renewable, but it isn't. just like with petroleum, there's a limited supply (although there's a hell of a lot more of it)...we're learning to catch the sun's energy by collecting it as it arrives in the form of photons in photoelectric cells, where we can convert it to electrical energy. another way is to collect the infra-red energy via reflectors and magnify it while aiming it at a common point, where the heat is collected and used to power steam turbines. I'm sure we'll discover many other ways to collect and convert the sun's energy, but none of it will be renewable, it will all be variations on the process of converting the energy from one form to another.

 

ethanol made from corn or other plants is another renewable source, since we can continually grow more crops with which to produce the ethanol, but it's not a very efficient method of producing fuel. wind farms or water-driven generators are the closest things that I can think of offhand that would meet the true definition of 'renewable'. maybe some day we can successfully develop a method for collecting solar or cosmic radiation that can be harnessed and used to propel space vehicles....there's no reason I can think of to say that could never happen.

 

I know this thread is based in hypotheticals, but the big bugger that screws things up is light speed. it's a barrier. any beings that dwell within the confines of the physical universe are subject to it. once something is accelerated to light speed, it no longer has any mass....it becomes pure energy. Werner Heisenberg determined that you can learn a subatomic particle's velocity or it's position, but you can't learn both. it's a fundadament of quantum physics. on Star Trek, they deal with the problem of reassembling 'beamed' crewmembers with a device built into their transporters called the 'Heisenberg Compensator', a device that can determine both the velocity and the location of all subatomic particles in order to reassemble crewmembers upon arriving at their destination. but even with that mythical device, they still can't 'beam' people at light speed.

 

I suspect that instead of breaking the light speed barrier, if humanity ever comes up with a method for interstellar travel, it would have to be by way of 'skipping' across reality - possibly in the same manner that wormholes are believed to be multidimensional, but at least for now, that's all sci-fi as well. it's really intersting to speculate on though. if any of this sounds like arguement, don't take it as such. it's nice to have a chance to toss ideas like this around.

Great post. Lots of stuff in here to consider. Cheers.

[Chef Jim]

You're !@#$ing awesome.

 

But it is interesting to consider. Imagine, for a moment, that we discovered a planet with sentient life and were able to reach it. If we took the step to interfere and speed up (or hinder) the natural evolution of that planet's species, would we just leave? I would imagine we would keep bases or equipment to keep tabs on the process of our little experiment.

 

Especially when that experiment develops nuclear weapons and starts detonating them like fireworks in the desert, oceans and atmosphere for twenty years...

 

And that's where my second theory comes into play. Three horny aliens shipwrecked on Earth. A wild Saturday night (see these things always happen on Saturdays) with three lonely female apes. Fast forward a couple of years the three aliens commit suicide from all the nagging about yard work, watching the little monkeys etc, etc. Here we are the results of that wild Saturday night and the planet from which these aliens came have no idea we're related.

[Jauronimo]

But they haven't learned. They've been around as long as us, if not longer, and they still haven't learned. I'm not sure where I fall in terms of Chef's theory, but it's impossible to deny that there was a giant physiological and neurological leap made in our species about 10,000 years ago that so far science and medicine have yet to be able to explain completely. It's called the "10,000 year explosion" because it's something that is still unexplained.

 

Aliens stepping in and "helping" our evolution is a possible explanation for this. Which is what I believe Chef is getting at.

What physiological leap was that? The leap I'm talking about took place much longer than 10,000 years ago. The 10,000 year explosion is all about the cultivation of grain and to a lesser extent, higher protein diets, which are linked to larger brains, the first cities, and rapid advancement. This was over 1 billion years in the making, from the first primitive cells to human beings building great monuments. The fact that its so far an isolated incident in earth's history doesn't mean much to me given the time frame we're talking about. Have a little patience. Those chimps might surprise us. We will probably kill them if they make the jump, though.

[Metal Man]

And that's where my second theory comes into play. Three horny aliens shipwrecked on Earth. A wild Saturday night (see these things always happen on Saturdays) with three lonely female apes. Fast forward a couple of years the three aliens commit suicide from all the nagging about yard work, watching the little monkeys etc, etc. Here we are the results of that wild Saturday night and the planet from which these aliens came have no idea we're related.

 

This is hilarious.

 

Talk about throwing a wrench into the religion machinery.

 

"Sorry folks... turns out we are all a result of a bunch of alien dudes desperate to get off. Thanks for playing though."

[Deranged Rhino]

Or how about have always been a part of our world but we just don't have the senses needed to perceive them?

The inter-dimensional theory is really out there for me mainly because my scientific abilities are woefully inadequate to grasp this fully. But there are a lot of people, serious people and crackpots alike, that think inter-dimensional beings are the more likely scenario and the answer to how to beat the speed of light as Azalin hinted at in his post.

 

Especially in light of the gravitational waves discovery that recently happened, the existence of multiple universes and dimensions now seems to be probable rather than just a theory. If beings from higher dimensions were able to move between dimensions, they could be hiding in plain sight and we'd never know.

 

And that's where my second theory comes into play. Three horny aliens shipwrecked on Earth. A wild Saturday night (see these things always happen on Saturdays) with three lonely female apes. Fast forward a couple of years the three aliens commit suicide from all the nagging about yard work, watching the little monkeys etc, etc. Here we are the results of that wild Saturday night and the planet from which these aliens came have no idea we're related.

That is outstanding and would be a hilarious movie or show.

[DC Tom]

We are an experiement planted by the aliens.

 

Gatorman's a failed one.

[Metal Man]

What physiological leap was that? The leap I'm talking about took place much longer than 10,000 years ago. The 10,000 year explosion is all about the cultivation of grain and to a lesser extent, higher protein diets, which are linked to larger brains, the first cities, and rapid advancement. This was over 1 billion years in the making, from the first primitive cells to human beings building great monuments. The fact that its so far an isolated incident in earth's history doesn't mean much to me given the time frame we're talking about. Have a little patience. Those chimps might surprise us. We will probably kill them if they make the jump, though.

 

I hope so, I have seen the negative consequences in multiple planet of the apes films... even the remakes continue to warn against this. We'd be stupid to ignore Hollywood in this even if one of the remakes had Marky Mark in it.

[DC Tom]

But it is interesting to consider. Imagine, for a moment, that we discovered a planet with sentient life and were able to reach it. If we took the step to interfere and speed up (or hinder) the natural evolution of that planet's species, would we just leave? I would imagine we would keep bases or equipment to keep tabs on the process of our little experiment.

 

Depends on the time-frame and scale. How does bacteria in a petri dish perceive the microbiologist?

[3rdnlng]

Seems somewhat plausible to me.

I think of something like a pig farmer and his pigs. How much do the pigs really understand about this entity that delivers them food daily and then eventually comes and takes one of them away for no reason they can come up with. I realize our intelligence is many orders higher than that of a pig but the thought is maybe some other life form is as much, if not much more, advanced than we are. Maybe in some weird pig thought they have the same "everything happens for a purpose" mentality some humans do and this purpose is so we can have bacon.

 

I know it's far out there, and no I am hitting a bong right now.

 

Sure brag about it and don't offer some to us.

[Metal Man]

Sure brag about it and don't offer some to us.

 

Promise there was no bragging as I am sitting at work right now... though not to say none of this hasn't been contemplated in the past in such states.

 

thanks for the call out. Fixed the original

 

Especially in light of the gravitational waves discovery that recently happened, the existence of multiple universes and dimensions now seems to be probable rather than just a theory. If beings from higher dimensions were able to move between dimensions, they could be hiding in plain sight and we'd never know.

 

Exactly.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Metal Man

[Deranged Rhino]

Depends on the time-frame and scale. How does bacteria in a petri dish perceive the microbiologist?

Very true.