Mr. WEO Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 1.5 billion?? The Browns (relatively) recently sold for just over half of that. There is no new stadium. Season tickets are less than 2/3 of the gate. Anyway, I enjoy seeing "Chuck Schumer" still being described as some sort of white knight here. He's helpless to change the fate of the Bills. Again, no one will challenge the monopoly exemption of the NFL. It would be political suicide and would ruin the league for Buffalo in particular. While I generally agree with you, how much sports bar business, grocery store business, and other purchases ancillary to RWS in-game or surrounding-the-game would be lost? I think that having a large part of the population decide that NFL football is dead to them would be a big blow for some businesses. Now, it's reasonable to suggest that that money would be re-allocated / spent on other things that will stimulate the economy just as well if not better, but I think there is simply more to the story than the 8 home games per season. There is a lot of money spent that has a heavy association with the Bills and their presence in the region. Most studies say..."not much".
CodeMonkey Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) While I generally agree with you, how much sports bar business, grocery store business, and other purchases ancillary to RWS in-game or surrounding-the-game would be lost? I think that having a large part of the population decide that NFL football is dead to them would be a big blow for some businesses. Now, it's reasonable to suggest that that money would be re-allocated / spent on other things that will stimulate the economy just as well if not better, but I think there is simply more to the story than the 8 home games per season. There is a lot of money spent that has a heavy association with the Bills and their presence in the region. A big blow? It's 8 days a year. 2 preseason games that really don't count. Decent teams might get a playoff game and good teams get multiple. Buffalo has had none for 15 years. Even if those businesses showed a HUGE increase on game days, there are simply too few of them to make a significant difference to any store or shops bottom line for the year. And if by some miracle some business did show a significant impact on their bottom line from those few days, they would be insignificant compared to all the businesses in the Buffalo area. A NFL team is a "nice to have" for the minority of people who are hard core fans, but certainly not a big blow to a city. Edited April 20, 2014 by CodeMonkey
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 1.5 billion?? The Browns (relatively) recently sold for just over half of that. There is no new stadium. Season tickets are less than 2/3 of the gate. Anyway, I enjoy seeing "Chuck Schumer" still being described as some sort of white knight here. He's helpless to change the fate of the Bills. Again, no one will challenge the monopoly exemption of the NFL. It would be political suicide and would ruin the league for Buffalo in particular. Most studies say..."not much". Links? I am not being snarky, just interested. A big blow? It's 8 days a year. 2 preseason games that really don't count. Decent teams might get a playoff game and good teams get multiple. Buffalo has had none for 15 years. Even if those businesses showed a HUGE increase on game days, there are simply too few of them to make a significant difference to any store or shops bottom line for the year. And if by some miracle some business did show a significant impact on their bottom line from those few days, they would be insignificant compared to all the businesses in the Buffalo area. A NFL team is a "nice to have" for the minority of people who are hard core fans, but certainly not a big blow to a city. Yes, a big blow for a sports bar... 16 + Sundays a year. Plus, a customer base that will not be nearly as excited to come out for MNF or any other football related dates.
CodeMonkey Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Links? I am not being snarky, just interested. Yes, a big blow for a sports bar... 16 + Sundays a year. Plus, a customer base that will not be nearly as excited to come out for MNF or any other football related dates. Oh you are considering people that would ignore the NFL as a whole if the Bills left. Even if every season ticket holder did this, the impact on the Buffalo areas economy would be negligible. But there are far more NFL fans around than strictly Bills fans. For economic analysis, Google is your friend. Google "impact of nfl team on a cities economy" to get started. Edited April 20, 2014 by CodeMonkey
K-9 Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Links? I am not being snarky, just interested. Yes, a big blow for a sports bar... 16 + Sundays a year. Plus, a customer base that will not be nearly as excited to come out for MNF or any other football related dates. From an ESPN article: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8225861/randy-lerner-sells-cleveland-browns-more-1b-sources-say Looks like it was for OVER a billion dollars. Maybe WEO forgot to include the second phase of the sale. GO BILLS!!!
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Oh you are considering people that would ignore the NFL as a whole if the Bills left. Even if every season ticket holder did this, the impact on the Buffalo areas economy would be negligible. But there are far more NFL fans around than strictly Bills fans. For economic analysis, Google is your friend. Google "impact of nfl team on a cities economy" to get started. Google can kind of be your friend, but I was wondering if WEO had some that cut the wheat from the chaff / were definitely peer-reviewed, etc.
blzrul Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 They all talk about "bidding". It's not an auction. Knowing how strongly Ralph felt about keeping teams in their home cities, there will probably be some criteria that potential owners have to meet. And I bet he shared those with Jim Kelly. Both Kelly and Thurman Thomas have intimated as much in the past. Ralph was no dope. He also didn't want his family whacked by taxes on the sale. One billion is nice, but there's also a stadium at issue. I imagine the state of NY and Erie County will be much more willing to work with a consortium that commits to stay in WNY. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the Wilson estate will not demand "highest price" for the team. Ralph had an old-fashioned love for the game that you don't see much any more. Surely his greatest fear would be to see the Bills end up with some jerk like Trump, Jerry Jones, Snyder....those guys who think of it as a business and nothing more. Oddly, if we pack the stadium the next few years to demonstrate the viability of remaining, and IF the Bills win, the price would go up. Good, or bad? I also have family connections to Bon Jovi going back 20+ years ... I haven't bothered to ask but I believe the statement. It's not relevant. All of this is speculation. Let's hope and pray for Kelly's success in beating cancer, then the rest will fall into place. I have expect to see Marv Levy out there fundraising for the cause, and if he does I'll surely send a check LOL.
Rocky Landing Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 A big blow? It's 8 days a year. 2 preseason games that really don't count. Decent teams might get a playoff game and good teams get multiple. Buffalo has had none for 15 years. Even if those businesses showed a HUGE increase on game days, there are simply too few of them to make a significant difference to any store or shops bottom line for the year. And if by some miracle some business did show a significant impact on their bottom line from those few days, they would be insignificant compared to all the businesses in the Buffalo area. A NFL team is a "nice to have" for the minority of people who are hard core fans, but certainly not a big blow to a city. Actually, the economic impact of an NFL franchise is much greater than you are describing (especially for a small city like Buffalo), and goes far beyond "8 days a year." Besides the income generated by fan based activities, there are hundreds of jobs from coaches all the way down to janitors. Even a venue like RWS gets constant upgrades and maintenance which is largely paid for by the Bills-- plumbing contractors, carpenters, electricians, etc. A certain amount of the substantial television revenue gets reinvested locally. And, if there were a new stadium project, Buffalo would be looking at literally thousands of well-paying jobs. A substantial amount of the incomes from these jobs would be pumped right back into the local economy. A couple years ago, I was in Miami on business and was given a tour of the new Marlins stadium as it was being built, and the number of jobs that were created for that project was in the tens of thousands.
Delete This Account Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 From an ESPN article: http://espn.go.com/n...-1b-sources-say Looks like it was for OVER a billion dollars. Maybe WEO forgot to include the second phase of the sale. GO BILLS!!! was just gonna post this. the Browns sale just broke $1 billion. unsure what this "just over half of" $1.5 billion is in reference to. but in WEO's mind, i've rarely been accurate about anything, so take this post with a grain of salt. jw
K-9 Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 was just gonna post this. the Browns sale just broke $1 billion. unsure what this "just over half of" $1.5 billion is in reference to. but in WEO's mind, i've rarely been accurate about anything, so take this post with a grain of salt. jw Happy Easter! Peace be with you, JW. And WEO, too.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) @ work w/this song on, I think it is Bon Jovi song: "I will be there for you these five words I will say to you..." Oh, those five words: Can somebody loan me a gun? I need to shoot my radio. Edited April 20, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 @ work w/this song on, I think it is Bon Jovi song: "I will be there for you these five words I will say to you..." Oh, those five words: Can somebody loan me a gun? I need to shoot my radio. I suggest you phone the nearest cowboy, riding on a steel horse. Try to shoot at more than just the radio.
PS 56 Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 If they are coughing up $1 Billion, they are overpaying. Further, at that price the team is toast in Buffalo. That is a lot of money to earn back to get any rate of return.
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 If they are coughing up $1 Billion, they are overpaying. Further, at that price the team is toast in Buffalo. That is a lot of money to earn back to get any rate of return. Look up the TV contracts for NFL football. It is nearly impossible to lose money. Now, making back your investment will take a heck of a lot of time, but considering $400M penalty, legal fees, NFL relocation fees + a share of a billion dollars for a stadium in another locality, that's way more than a billion to make back...
John in Jax Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 This would really be a shot through the heart if this were to happen. I can't imagine the number of fans that would be runaways after this. Oh, well. At this point, I guess all we can do is just live on the prayer of this not happening. LOL. Nice. I see what you did there, but did anyone else?
Mr. WEO Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 From an ESPN article: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8225861/randy-lerner-sells-cleveland-browns-more-1b-sources-say Looks like it was for OVER a billion dollars. Maybe WEO forgot to include the second phase of the sale. GO BILLS!!! My bad. The number I had in mind was about 900 million. Even so, I don't see 1.5 billion for the Bills. It's a number that doesn't make sense for a buyer keeping them in Buffalo. Google can kind of be your friend, but I was wondering if WEO had some that cut the wheat from the chaff / were definitely peer-reviewed, etc. I posted a while ago some points from this paper: http://www.colgate.edu/docs/d_centers-and-institutes_institute-for-philosophy-politics-and-economics/koehler-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0 Happy Easter! Peace be with you, JW. And WEO, too. Thanks, K-9, and to you and everyone as well.
Rocky Landing Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Look up the TV contracts for NFL football. It is nearly impossible to lose money. Now, making back your investment will take a heck of a lot of time, but considering $400M penalty, legal fees, NFL relocation fees + a share of a billion dollars for a stadium in another locality, that's way more than a billion to make back... Unfortunately, ROI in a market like Los Angeles or Toronto is a lot higher than keeping the team in Buffalo. I don't know about Toronto, but in Los Angeles, a new stadium would be publicly funded, and if someone had a team to bring to LA, would be as good as built. Edited April 20, 2014 by Rocky Landing
K D Posted April 20, 2014 Posted April 20, 2014 Not me. I'd buy every ticket I could get my hands on and I'd sure as hell be there every game I could Gross
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Unfortunately, ROI in a market like Los Angeles or Toronto is a lot higher than keeping the team in Buffalo. I don't know about Toronto, but in Los Angeles, a new stadium would be publicly funded, and if someone had a team to bring to LA, would be as good as built. Where is this guarantee of public funding? It is harder than ever (and rightfully so) to get public dollars allocated toward a stadium project. If LA wanted this, it could have happened many times in the past 20 years; hell, go further back than that when Al D and co. were griping about the Mausoleum.
Rocky Landing Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Where is this guarantee of public funding? It is harder than ever (and rightfully so) to get public dollars allocated toward a stadium project. If LA wanted this, it could have happened many times in the past 20 years; hell, go further back than that when Al D and co. were griping about the Mausoleum. So you know, I have lived in Los Angeles for 23 years, now (born and raised in Rochester), and the negotiations for a Los Angeles NFL stadium have been hinging on the availability of an NFL franchise for a few years, now. Los Angeles has already signed a plan with AEG that includes renovations to Staples Center and the LA Convention Center and would build a new stadium at a site called Farmer's Field. The $1.4 billion contract includes $290mil in public financing. All of the public hurdles have been accomplished, and the only one remaining is the lack of an NFL team. The contract expires in October, and will likely be extended, and rewritten to start the Staples Center/Convention Center renovations without the Farmer's Field build, pending the availability of an NFL team. As it stands, the current favorite is the Rams, although, I fear that the recent availability of the Bills might move them up in the running. Indeed, the timing of the Non-Relocation Agreement might even time out perfectly for such a deal. Be that as it may, both the City of Los Angeles, and Roger Goodell and the NFL have expressed a commitment to getting an NFL team back in Los Angeles.
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