Game of Thrones Part Deax: The Readers Thread

[K-9]

Edmure is Sansa's uncle. The Blackfish is her great uncle. Edmure made the deal to live like a hostage with his kid by giving up the castle.

Ah, gotcha. My bad. I confused uncle with great uncle. Anyway, Jaime's deal with Edmure in exchange for Riverrun is to let Edmure and his wife and child live a comfortable life in Casterly Rock.

[FireChan]

 

The tent scene between Snow and Sansa explained her state of mind pretty well.

 

Sansa knew Rickon was going to die regardless what happened. She knew the only reason Rickon was still alive was to give Ramsey leverage against Snow and Sansa. Once Ramsey had drawn out Snow into open battle, he had no need to keep Rickon alive. Why keep Ned Starks only (known) true surviving son and heir to Winterfell alive to contest his claim?

 

Sansa also recognized the Jon Snow was marching his army into a trap. Even with the Vale knights they would have walked right into Ramsey's plan. She held the forces back until Ramsey had committed the last of his reserves

What Chan said ^. We're talking about different Tully's. The guy who gave up the fort to Jamie was Catelyn Stark's brother, hence Sansa's uncle. You're thinking of the Blackfish, Catelyn Stark's uncle / Sansa's great uncle

IIRC Sansa called them both her "uncles," in the show.

 

So Sansa didn't care if Rickon lived or died, okay. What about Jon? What if Jon was this really big coward who ordered a retreat thinking they were all gonna die? What if he took an arrow to the neck and the army broke thinking they had no hope?

 

"Hey Jon, there's a big army of cavalry coming, so you draw Ramsay's army out and then we'll come over the hill and smash them," is just as easy and actually makes logical sense, no?

[Deranged Rhino]

IIRC Sansa called them both her "uncles," in the show.

 

So Sansa didn't care if Rickon lived or died, okay. What about Jon? What if Jon was this really big coward who ordered a retreat thinking they were all gonna die? What if he took an arrow to the neck and the army broke thinking they had no hope?

 

"Hey Jon, there's a big army of cavalry coming, so you draw Ramsay's army out and then we'll come over the hill and smash them," is just as easy and actually makes logical sense, no?

 

It makes sense if Sansa thinks she can trust Snow and or the other people in camp she doesn't know. The one thing she learned well from her time as a prisoner in King's Landing (even more so than as Ramsey's wife) is that she can't trust anyone but herself.

 

I think she feared her plan being ruined by either Bolton spies or Snow's own ego.

[/dev/null]

Or maybe Littlefinger's army took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

 

Seriously, I don't understand the travel system in Westeros. It took Arya and the Hound a couple seasons to go from Kings Landing to the Vale. But Jaimie can march an army from Kings Landing to Riverrun in a single episode and the Iron Fleet can cross the sea to Mereen in like two episodes

[K-9]

Or maybe Littlefinger's army took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

 

Seriously, I don't understand the travel system in Westeros. It took Arya and the Hound a couple seasons to go from Kings Landing to the Vale. But Jaimie can march an army from Kings Landing to Riverrun in a single episode and the Iron Fleet can cross the sea to Mereen in like two episodes

[FireChan]

 

It makes sense if Sansa thinks she can trust Snow and or the other people in camp she doesn't know. The one thing she learned well from her time as a prisoner in King's Landing (even more so than as Ramsey's wife) is that she can't trust anyone but herself.

 

I think she feared her plan being ruined by either Bolton spies or Snow's own ego.

If she can't trust Jon Snow to tell him an army is coming to help him, why even bother helping him?

 

If I can't trust you to return my $20 Greggy, I'm not gonna secretly mail it to you when the loan sharks are banging down your door to break your knees.

Or maybe Littlefinger's army took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

 

Seriously, I don't understand the travel system in Westeros. It took Arya and the Hound a couple seasons to go from Kings Landing to the Vale. But Jaimie can march an army from Kings Landing to Riverrun in a single episode and the Iron Fleet can cross the sea to Mereen in like two episodes

Different timelines.

 

Personally, I think Sansa is pure evil now. She forced Jon Snow to fight to "save Rickon" and their home from monsters, then abandoned those two for her "plan." It's time for the Queen in the North and she's gonna take some heads.

Edited June 21, 2016 by FireChan

[DC Tom]

Sansa also recognized the Jon Snow was marching his army into a trap. Even with the Vale knights they would have walked right into Ramsey's plan. She held the forces back until Ramsey had committed the last of his reserves

 

I think that's giving her more credit than she deserves - specifically, I think that at the time of the argument between Jon and Sansa, she didn't know that the knights of the Vale were coming (or at least didn't know when - remember, she was arguing "wait for more men" as though it was a likelihood, trying to tell Jon that more men were available without telling him about the Vale.) When she found out, it was just fortuitous timing.

 

Although I can't completely discount that her knowledge of Ramsey's single-minded sociopathy gave her the insight that by the end of the battle he'd be singularly focused on it and his revenge, paying no attention to his flanks and rear, and susceptible to being corn-cobbed. But the thing is, timing that sort of maneuver is extraordinarily difficult for experienced generals. For an admitted rank amateur...it would be dumb luck indistinguishable from fortuitous timing.

 

(Fortunately for Dany, she doesn't have to worry about that. A great many sins of generalship can be covered up by massively superior firepower.)

[K-9]

Or maybe Sansa, after lamenting not being included in the war planning, decided to prove to Jon Snow her meddle and worth to the cause as well as to establish herself as truly worthy of ruling Winterfell and becoming Queen in the North. I don't buy for a second that she's taken a turn for evil. Good luck getting that past Brienne. The way it's setting up, women are going to be ruling Westeros and the rest of the kingdoms.

[/dev/null]

 

(Fortunately for Dany, she doesn't have to worry about that. A great many sins of generalship can be covered up by massively superior firepower.)

And dragons, they help too.

 

Or um, in terms you can understand, Dany has the ability to project air power and effectively has established air superiority in all theatres of operation

[DC Tom]

If she can't trust Jon Snow to tell him an army is coming to help him, why even bother helping him?

 

Because she's at least smart enough to let him and his council base their planning on reality, and not hope. How !@#$ed would they be if they expected the Vale's forces to be there...and they didn't show?

 

Really, holding back the Knights of the Vale and not telling anyone was probably the right choice. Ramsey has the option to decline battle and retreat to Winterfell, and neither Jon's forces nor the Vale's could realistically besiege it. You have to get Ramsey on to the battlefield and committed so that his force is cut off from Winterfell. And you don't want to give Ramsey any clue...which could just as well mean you don't tell Jon, Davos, or anyone else, less their actions on the battlefield let it slip (though I'd trust Davos, at least, to be discreet. Dude was an onion smuggler.)

Or maybe Sansa, after lamenting not being included in the war planning, decided to prove to Jon Snow her meddle and worth to the cause as well as to establish herself as truly worthy of ruling Winterfell and becoming Queen in the North. I don't buy for a second that she's taken a turn for evil. Good luck getting that past Brienne. The way it's setting up, women are going to be ruling Westeros and the rest of the kingdoms.

 

"Mettle."

 

Really, you know better.

And dragons, they help too.

 

That would be the "massively superior firepower."

[FireChan]

Or maybe Sansa, after lamenting not being included in the war planning, decided to prove to Jon Snow her meddle and worth to the cause as well as to establish herself as truly worthy of ruling Winterfell and becoming Queen in the North. I don't buy for a second that she's taken a turn for evil. Good luck getting that past Brienne. The way it's setting up, women are going to be ruling Westeros and the rest of the kingdoms.

Even worse. She risked all their lives to "prove herself" while sitting on the sidelines.

 

She got pissed that Jon Snow didn't consult her about what to do, then when asked what to do, said "I don't know." Brutal look.

[K-9]

 

Because she's at least smart enough to let him and his council base their planning on reality, and not hope. How !@#$ed would they be if they expected the Vale's forces to be there...and they didn't show?

 

Really, holding back the Knights of the Vale and not telling anyone was probably the right choice. Ramsey has the option to decline battle and retreat to Winterfell, and neither Jon's forces nor the Vale's could realistically besiege it. You have to get Ramsey on to the battlefield and committed so that his force is cut off from Winterfell. And you don't want to give Ramsey any clue...which could just as well mean you don't tell Jon, Davos, or anyone else, less their actions on the battlefield let it slip (though I'd trust Davos, at least, to be discreet. Dude was an onion smuggler.)

 

"Mettle."

 

Really, you know better.

 

That would be the "massively superior firepower."

Spare me. It's like their and there and they're. But I'll give you a mettle for spotting my mistake.

[FireChan]

 

Because she's at least smart enough to let him and his council base their planning on reality, and not hope. How !@#$ed would they be if they expected the Vale's forces to be there...and they didn't show?

 

Really, holding back the Knights of the Vale and not telling anyone was probably the right choice. Ramsey has the option to decline battle and retreat to Winterfell, and neither Jon's forces nor the Vale's could realistically besiege it. You have to get Ramsey on to the battlefield and committed so that his force is cut off from Winterfell. And you don't want to give Ramsey any clue...which could just as well mean you don't tell Jon, Davos, or anyone else, less their actions on the battlefield let it slip (though I'd trust Davos, at least, to be discreet. Dude was an onion smuggler.)

Can you get anymore !@#$ed than an all out suicide charge that ends with your entire army surrounded?

 

If Jon is gonna slip info to Ramsay, you're screwed either way, probably.

 

I think she didn't say anything because the parallels to "Look to my coming, at the first light of the fifth day," would already be quite clear to the general audience.

[K-9]

Even worse. She risked all their lives to "prove herself" while sitting on the sidelines.

 

She got pissed that Jon Snow didn't consult her about what to do, then when asked what to do, said "I don't know." Brutal look.

You are really into over thinking this, aren't you? I don't think it's that complicated.

 

All of their lives were already at risk given the sheer difference in army sizes and she knew Rickon was as good as dead, anyway. What she didn't know was that Jon Snow would, as he has so many times in the past, let emotion overrule his reason and forget entirely about the pincer tactics laid out in the war planning which TRULY put everyone's life at risk.

 

Besides, Littlefinger's ride to the rescue was set up several episodes ago and he was already on the way. It's just as conceivable that when he reached the vicinity, Sansa told him of the impending battle and to proceed with haste to assist Jon Snow. It's all perfectly logical. Well as logical as anything else in a land of fire breathing dragons, resurrected good guys, and zombies.

[DC Tom]

Can you get anymore !@#$ed than an all out suicide charge that ends with your entire army surrounded?

 

Yes. A protracted siege, for example.

 

If Jon is gonna slip info to Ramsay, you're screwed either way, probably.

 

"Slip info?" Where did I say that? What the !@#$ are you reading?

 

I think she didn't say anything because the parallels to "Look to my coming, at the first light of the fifth day," would already be quite clear to the general audience.

 

Sansa didn't say anything because she knew the audience would understand? You're an idiot.

[Deranged Rhino]

Can you get anymore !@#$ed than an all out suicide charge that ends with your entire army surrounded?

 

If Jon is gonna slip info to Ramsay, you're screwed either way, probably.

 

I think she didn't say anything because the parallels to "Look to my coming, at the first light of the fifth day," would already be quite clear to the general audience.

 

Remember that her and Snow didn't exactly have the best of relationships. When growing up, Sansa was perhaps the worst of the Stark children towards Jon. I don't think she thought Snow would betray her, but she knew she couldn't trust the people around him whom she didn't know.

 

But this is speculative of course.

[K-9]

 

Remember that her and Snow didn't exactly have the best of relationships. When growing up, Sansa was perhaps the worst of the Stark children towards Jon. I don't think she thought Snow would betray her, but she knew she couldn't trust the people around him whom she didn't know.

 

But this is speculative of course.

I think this conflict found full resolution upon their reunion and subsequent talks at Castle Black. They kind of chuckled at this notion when they were reminiscing.

[FireChan]

You are really into over thinking this, aren't you? I don't think it's that complicated.

 

All of their lives were already at risk given the sheer difference in army sizes and she knew Rickon was as good as dead, anyway. What she didn't know was that Jon Snow would, as he has so many times in the past, let emotion overrule his reason and forget entirely about the pincer tactics laid out in the war planning which TRULY put everyone's life at risk.

 

Besides, Littlefinger's ride to the rescue was set up several episodes ago and he was already on the way. It's just as conceivable that when he reached the vicinity, Sansa told him of the impending battle and to proceed with haste to assist Jon Snow. It's all perfectly logical. Well as logical as anything else in a land of fire breathing dragons, resurrected good guys, and zombies.

Her whole justification to Jon to get him to fight was, direct quote, "We have to save our brother!" Huh?

 

Didn't she warn Jon about letting Ramsay goad him into screwing up right before the battle? It sounds like she knew that could happen.

 

Sansa knows he's coming though. No one else does. I just don't see how that makes sense at all. I'm honestly not being difficult for the sake of it.

 

Yes. A protracted siege, for example.

 

 

"Slip info?" Where did I say that? What the !@#$ are you reading?

 

 

Sansa didn't say anything because she knew the audience would understand? You're an idiot.

They were on the eve of battle. How does Sansa whispering "help may arrive tomorrow," get to Ramsay Bolton? Unless Jon sits right down and writes him a letter, it just doesn't happen. So the protract siege possibility is moot.

 

Sansa didn't say anything because it drives tension. Just like "hiding" her letter. Will the Vale get there? Who did Sansa write to!?? Is there any hope for Jon's army?!?! Pure storytelling device that doesn't hold up to logic.

 

Remember that her and Snow didn't exactly have the best of relationships. When growing up, Sansa was perhaps the worst of the Stark children towards Jon. I don't think she thought Snow would betray her, but she knew she couldn't trust the people around him whom she didn't know.

 

But this is speculative of course.

I personally think that's stretching. She fled to him (and those around him) to escape Ramsay. She's clearly not afraid someone around her is going to send her back to him. She doesn't "trust" Davos because he worked for Stannis (a man who died trying to kill Ramsay, logic again) for a bit, but Brienne worked for Renly, Cat, Jaime, and wields a Lannister Valyrian sword and she's her main mate? Littlefinger sold her to Boltons, and she trusted him to come back and help her?

Edited June 21, 2016 by FireChan

[/dev/null]

 

Remember that her and Snow didn't exactly have the best of relationships. When growing up, Sansa was perhaps the worst of the Stark children towards Jon. I don't think she thought Snow would betray her, but she knew she couldn't trust the people around him whom she didn't know.

 

Even if they didn't have the best relationship, they were still brother and sister. Well they were raised as brother and sister anyways even if Snow's lineage may not exactly be what hey were told. And if a girl can't trust your brother, who can she trust?

 

Unless you're a Lannister. Then you're f*cking your brothers, but each in a different way

Sansa knows he's coming though. No one else does. I just don't see how that makes sense at all. I'm honestly not being difficult for the sake of it.

They were on the eve of battle. How does Sansa whispering "help may arrive tomorrow," get to Ramsay Bolton? Unless Jon sits right down and writes him a letter, it just doesn't happen. So the protract siege possibility is moot.

Sansa tells Snow. Snow tells Davos, Thormund, and the Giant, altering their plans. Change of plan trickles down thru the ranks to somebody feeding intel to Ramsey

[FireChan]

Even if they didn't have the best relationship, they were still brother and sister. Well they were raised as brother and sister anyways even if Snow's lineage may not exactly be what hey were told. And if a girl can't trust your brother, who can she trust?

 

Unless you're a Lannister. Then you're f*cking your brothers, but each in a different way

Sansa tells Snow. Snow tells Davos, Thormund, and the Giant, altering their plans. Change of plan trickles down thru the ranks to somebody feeding intel to Ramsey

Fair enough. I can sorta see how that would introduce an unstable element. You'd think it'd be easily rectified with a "don't tell anybody so Ramsay doesn't find out," but hey.