K-9 Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 Who said Toronto is being allowed to bid? As far as I know, the team isn't up for auction, nor will it be. The trust has the right to sell to anyone they wish, as far as anyone is aware. I'm also curious what makes you think that there aren't any plans in the works? Is it merely because you haven't heard that? I asked this question last week: is Mary Wilson bound by the terms of the trust to take the highest bid or does she have the discretion to take the highest bid she likes? I truly believe she cares about Mr. Wilson's legacy to the region. Wish we had more facts about the will and trust. But I fully understand why we have no right to know. GO BILLS!!!
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) First of all no one can say what the future will bring. However the lack of certainty does not instantly mean that there is a conspiracy afoot, like you suggest. First of all if Ralph was so greedy why did he sign a lease?? Seriously, if he is as evil and greedy as you purport then why make things harder on his estate by tying the Bills down for 6 more years? If anything that lowers the value of the Bills at auction. Second, there are committees working to find a solution to keep the Bills here that include people at all levels. People with the power to get money and make things happen. So there is an effort being made. It was reported that Ralph could not legally do what you suggest. You forget that the NFL has a say in what happens too. Ralph can want a lot of things. None of it happens if the NFL doesn't sign off. Sorry if that spoils your "woe-is-me-I'm-a-victim" narrative. Ralph did more than you want to give him credit for. It's also a good thing that most WNY'ers have an appreciation for Mr. Wilson and what he's done for the area. If I owned the Bills and more fans were like you I'd move the team. PTR The lease is only a speed bump to relocating the team. The lease that all our local politicians and naïve media are waving around with so much pride does virtually nothing to prevent this franchise from relocating. The lease does NOT buy the WNY community any time to figure the new stadium issue out. Why ? Good question. The reason why is that the decision to relocate or NOT relocate this team will be made by the next owner. That owner (by all reports) will be chosen and approved in the next 6-9 months. That 6-9 months is the proverbial CLOCK and it is ticking and that is the time this community has to figure out the stadium issue if we want a new stadium to factor into relocation talk. If a new owner is WNY friendly (Pegs, Jacobs Golisano etc.), the lease agreement and new stadium committee become very relevant and form the foundation of legal discussions on where the team will play within WNY for decades to come. BUT, and this is a huge BUT, if the new owner does NOT have ties to WNY or has intentions on relocating this team to Toronto, LA or somewhere else, that lease provides nothing more than a waiting period of 5 years (since a year will have passed before owner is approved) before they can move team. The key in that case is NOT the lease, but the NFL and the other 24 owners standing up and voting said owner DOWN BEFORE he/she buys team. Once the new owner is approved, it will be too late to stop a relocation. So, this lease is nice, but it is a lot more PR than anything when it comes to the longer term. Edited April 12, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN
thebandit27 Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 The lease is only a speed bump to relocating the team. The lease that all our local politicians and naïve media are waving around with so much pride does virtually nothing to prevent this franchise from relocating. The lease does NOT buy the WNY community any time to figure the new stadium issue out. Why ? Good question. The reason why is that the decision to relocate or NOT relocate this team will be made by the next owner. That owner (by all reports) will be chosen and approved in the next 6-9 months. That 6-9 months is the proverbial CLOCK and it is ticking and that is the time this community has to figure out the stadium issue if we want a new stadium to factor into relocation talk. If a new owner is WNY friendly (Pegs, Jacobs Golisano etc.), the lease agreement and new stadium committee become very relevant and form the foundation of legal discussions on where the team will play within WNY for decades to come. BUT, and this is a huge BUT, if the new owner does NOT have ties to WNY or has intentions on relocating this team to Toronto, LA or somewhere else, that lease provides nothing more than a waiting period of 5 years (since a year will have passed before owner is approved) before they can move team. The key in that case is NOT the lease, but the NFL and the other 24 owners standing up and voting said owner DOWN BEFORE he/she buys team. This lease is nice, but it is a lot more PR than anything. That's not correct. The lease has very specific language that all but guarantees that the County can secure an injunction against the team leaving during ANY year of the lease. The $400M is a penalty that the team would have to pay in the minute chance that they won in court and prevented their leaving from being enjoined. The 7th year lowering of the penalty to $28M is not a window to move the team; it's simply provided so that in the event that a new stadium were constructed, the team could break the lease and pay out the remainder of the fee to make the County whole. There is no buyout in the lease. None.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) As was pointed out he could have sold prior to his death for $1 billion and be on the hook to pay capitol gains tax on the full $1 billion, cost for that roughly $400 mil. Or her lets the team go to his estate and all the capital gains tax goes away. Capitol gains tax is different than estate taxes, those he can't avoid, but there likely are games he could have played to reduce those. And yes capital gains tax I believe is netted out from estate tax, but there are things to do to reduce or pay off the impact of estate taxes, capital gains taxes are harder to get around. I don't care how rich you are you can be worth billions or worth $50k, you're not going to hand the govt 39.6% just to make your day! He did exactly what he should do and the same as every other owner has done. So you consider allowing Toronto and other investors into a bidding process is better than avoiding a bidding process completely??? and still achieve a sale price near 1 billion??? Edited April 12, 2014 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch
oman128 Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. According to whom? This board is full of rumors and speculations. Everyone wants an answer today, but it ain't happening.
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) That's not correct. The lease has very specific language that all but guarantees that the County can secure an injunction against the team leaving during ANY year of the lease. The $400M is a penalty that the team would have to pay in the minute chance that they won in court and prevented their leaving from being enjoined. The 7th year lowering of the penalty to $28M is not a window to move the team; it's simply provided so that in the event that a new stadium were constructed, the team could break the lease and pay out the remainder of the fee to make the County whole. There is no buyout in the lease. None. OK, so team can't be relocated outside of WNY until 2022. Does that change the long term if Bon Jovi's group buys team ? -- they have to wait 8 years instead of 5. My point is the same, what is standing in the way of this franchise moving (longer term) is not the lease, it is WHO the NEW owner is. The fact that person will be chosen in the next 6-9 months, that is the TIME we have to get this figured out. Let me say it another way. If it is announced tomorrow that the estate has reached a sale price with Bon Jovi's group to sell team for $950 million and on Monday the NFL owners approve the sale, who on this board thinks the team will be in Buffalo after this lease ? Edited April 12, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN
thebandit27 Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 OK, so team can't be relocated outside of WNY until 2022. Does that change the long term if Bon Jovi's group buys team ? -- they have to wait 8 years instead of 5. My point is the same, what is standing in the way of this franchise moving (longer term) is not the lease, it is WHO the NEW owner is. The fact that person will be chosen in the next 6-9 months, that is the TIME we have to get this figured out. Assuming there's a new owner approved in that timeframe, then there's nothing to figure out. If an owner is named by that time, then it's been in the works for awhile now, as it takes far too long to organize a billion-dollar purchase for this thing to come together that quickly. Keep in mind that a new owner not only needs o be approved by the league, but would also need to have a business plan that gets approved as well, and you can be certain that his/her intentions to relocate the team would be front and center when the other owners vote on approval. Relocating this particular team isn't nearly as popular with the owners as some folks may believe. All that said, it's a moot point and will remain so until an owner with motivation to move them is approved...I don't believe that's likely to happen for whatever that's worth.
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) Assuming there's a new owner approved in that timeframe, then there's nothing to figure out. If an owner is named by that time, then it's been in the works for awhile now, as it takes far too long to organize a billion-dollar purchase for this thing to come together that quickly. Keep in mind that a new owner not only needs o be approved by the league, but would also need to have a business plan that gets approved as well, and you can be certain that his/her intentions to relocate the team would be front and center when the other owners vote on approval. Relocating this particular team isn't nearly as popular with the owners as some folks may believe. All that said, it's a moot point and will remain so until an owner with motivation to move them is approved...I don't believe that's likely to happen for whatever that's worth. They've said a new owner is likely to get approved by March next year or as early as October this year, that is a range of 6-11 months. That is the time line for this community (politicians, businesses, corporations, fans etc.) to have any influence over this process. After that, all the decisions will be in the hands of the other owners to approve the NEW owner and down the line (2022) approve or not approve a relocation. The lease is irrelevant, agree ? Second, are you completely dismissing the Toronto group from being a viable option for owning team ? Because that group has made it's intentions pretty clear on where they want the team longer term. Edited April 12, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 With everything being equal, I question if the NFL really does want a team in Canada?? First you have CFL issues to deal with. Then you have TV contracts to sort through. Will players want to be paid in Canadian $$? Many NHL players have signed with US teams to avoid Canadian taxes. Granted the exchange rate is better these days than it use to be, but with the tax issues, do they really want that? Is the NFL's plan to just dangle the potential of maybe getting a team in front of Toronto and London to get them to pay big bucks for rights to games, hoping they someday may get a team? Yeah I get it that it's a huge market people wise, but will there really be interest? How'd the one game played there each year work out?? I realize that's different thaan having your own team, but is there really interest?
PromoTheRobot Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Are you suggesting he is military? Police? Royal Canadian Mountie? Royal Palace Guard? Or maybe Royal PITA has a standard dress I'm not aware of. Got me. Can't trust swype.
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Thank you for your uniformed, whiny rant. I don't always agree with PTR but when I do it is because someone thinks that taking a $700 million tax hit is a good idea.
thebandit27 Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 They've said a new owner is likely to get approved by March next year or as early as October this year, that is a range of 6-11 months. That is the time line for this community (politicians, businesses, corporations, fans etc.) to have any influence over this process. After that, all the decisions will be in the hands of the other owners to approve the NEW owner and down the line (2022) approve or not approve a relocation. The lease is irrelevant, agree ? Second, are you completely dismissing the Toronto group from being a viable option for owning team ? Because that group has made it's intentions pretty clear on where they want the team longer term. "They" said that a new owner "could be approved as early as October", and as I said, the new owner's business plan would be the subject of greatest interest to the other owners. And it doesn't really matter who has what intentions--there's no requirement that anyone's aware of that the trust or Mary Wilson ha to sell to anyone other than who they choose to sell to. Lastly, if a sale is to be completed that quickly, then the new owner is already chosen. The next 6-11 months make zero difference on that case.
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) BTW, all this discussion on what Ralph could or couldn't do before he died and what the estate/trust can or can't do now is very compelling. Why hasn't our local media done an actual investigative piece on this ? Instead, I get to hear 2+ hours on GR of Jeremy White drooling over Mike Evans at 9 in the draft. What was amazing was listening to Jeremy and Howard dismiss all the rumors about the Bills ownership issue as "rumors and speculation" only to spend the next two hours on rumors and speculation on the draft ! Moronic. "They" said that a new owner "could be approved as early as October", and as I said, the new owner's business plan would be the subject of greatest interest to the other owners. And it doesn't really matter who has what intentions--there's no requirement that anyone's aware of that the trust or Mary Wilson ha to sell to anyone other than who they choose to sell to. Lastly, if a sale is to be completed that quickly, then the new owner is already chosen. The next 6-11 months make zero difference on that case. You really think a group of investors that has access to a billion dollars can't put together a bid and business plan in a few months ? I've watched first hand companies do the same in less than a month. Keep in mind, these groups have also had time to work behind the scenes and discuss with their investors, it's not like RW's death was a shock, he was 95. Don't hang your hopes on that. If the Toronto group is serious, they can have a well thought out business plan and a billion dollars in a few weeks. Edited April 12, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN
Big Turk Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Really mr Shrewd businessman - what exactly is Ralph doing with that billion now? I cant believe any Bills fan would agree with an owner who in his final days still chose a bit more profit ahead of securing the team stay in Buffalo forever.... The money going to his family is more than they could possibly spend - so I think they are taken car of whether they see 1.2 billion or 1 billion or 600 million........ If it turns out that an 'auction' that does not allow a bidding process from toronto and LA is not allowed to happen then I am corrected and would praise Ralph for not jeapordizing the team from staying in Buffalo. My point is it easily could have been done....if he chose to do so...god bless him.... but if he chose to jeapordize this team relocation so his estate might see more dollars when they already would have more than they possibly could spend.... f- him There really is no middle ground here........ You are forgetting something. It was his team and he can do what he wanted with it. Perhaps we should all be upset with you for not dumping your girlfriend/wife? Sounds a little ridiculous BTW, all this discussion on what Ralph could or couldn't do before he died and what the estate/trust can or can't do now is very compelling. Why hasn't our local media done an actual investigative piece on this ? Instead, I get to hear 2+ hours on GR of Jeremy White drooling over Mike Evans at 9 in the draft. What was amazing was listening to Jeremy and Howard dismiss all the rumors about the Bills ownership issue as "rumors and speculation" only to spend the next two hours on rumors and speculation on the draft ! Moronic. You really think a group of investors that has access to a billion dollars can't put together a bid and business plan in a few months ? I've watched first hand companies do the same in less than a month. Keep in mind, these groups have also had time to work behind the scenes and discuss with their investors, it's not like RW's death was a shock, he was 95. Don't hang your hopes on that. If the Toronto group is serious, they can have a well thought out business plan and a billion dollars in a few weeks. They still have no viable stadium, no way the NFL allows them to play at Rogers Centre
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 You are forgetting something. It was his team and he can do what he wanted with it. Perhaps we should all be upset with you for not dumping your girlfriend/wife? Sounds a little ridiculous They still have no viable stadium, no way the NFL allows them to play at Rogers Centre Agree. But they would have 8 years to figure it out. Why do you think no potential owner with local ties made their interest in buying the team public ?
Paulmac Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Mr Wilson couldnt secure the sale of his team before his death,,,capital gains taxes paid by the heirs of his estate would have been 38 percent...any decent estate planner would caution against setting up a sale while he was still alive..family can set it up now so that tax burden will be significantly less going forward..am I happy that we now have all the trials and turmoil that come with uncertainty surrounding a new owner..NO but completely understand that the 400 million penalty in place if the team is moved before 2020 was the best he could do to secure the Bills future in WNY...perhaps I'm nuts but I can't see this team leaving Buffalo, especially with the Indy Baltimore fiasco and the Brown situation...NY stateand the NFL needs the Bills to stay right where they are and I will keep the faith that we can count on the Bills being in Buffalo for a long long time
Beerball Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Hopefully at some point in the near future we'll know the name(s) of the buyer(s). Until then all that we can do is speculate, but, we will do our speculation in a tasteful manner & we will behave as adults.
purple haze Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. How are they heavy favorites? Based on speculation? I would say it's not likely at all. Bills aren't going anywhere in the next 7 years. Odds are interests with local ties will buy the team before a TO based group buys the team, sits on them for that length of time and produces a lame duck product, while at the same time trying to gin up money to build a stadium in TO and massage the CFL issue. And get 24 of 31 NFL owners to vote yes on a sale in the first place. No guarantee to happen. Because a potential group has $ does not mean they will get the team. Too many people with money and local ties to be drastically outbid by outside groups. Bills more than likely are staying right where they are. Only difference will be a new stadium or renovated Ralph. Edited April 12, 2014 by purple haze
Dr. Fong Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 We don't know any real details yet and already people are ready to badmouth Ralph. I'm not the world's biggest Ralph fan, but the only thing that's been made clear through this whole process is that Ralph Wilson has gone out of his way to give the region a chance to keep the Bills. Ultimately, they still may end up leaving eventually, but that's more to do with the economic realities of the current era than the wishes of Ralph Wilson.
gobillsinytown Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 For everyone who thinks that the Bills leaving Buffalo is a foregone conclusion.....the NFL will not take moving the team lightly. One of the NFL's primary selling points is tradition. The Bills are one of the original "foolish club" teams, with a great deal of history and tradition behind it. While I understand the concerns that Buffalo is a small market, declining city, etc. that doesn't tell the whole story. For example, if economic considerations were the only factor, then why do Detroit, Cleveland, and Jacksonville still have teams? All three of those cities have experienced significant economic decline and in Detroit's case, a more precipitous decline than Buffalo. Yet no one is talking about Detroit losing the Lions. Jacksonville is being discussed only because of lack of fan support. In purely economic terms, even Pittsburgh and Philadelphia could be included. Both of those cities have their economic strengths, but are a shadow of their former selves. The NFL has more than enough collective wealth to keep a team in Buffalo quite profitable.
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