Don't rule out Niagara Falls, N.Y. as Bills future home

[Kirby Jackson]

 

For those really dying to go to "Niagara Falls", it's quite simple to simply go over the border to where all they are seeking already exists. The State understands this.

Of course the state understands this but in now way would they be content to just let all of that money be spent in Canada instead of the US. That's the entire point. If they can bring some o that money back into NY they would be thrilled.

[GG]

If you believe USA Niagara (with an annual budget of about $3.5 million) makes the state "full in" on Niagara Falls, I've got some prime land in the North End I'd like to sell you...

 

http://www.niagarafa...USANiagara.html

 

 

Even the Governor's $20 million commitment (over 5 years) to the Downtown Niagara Falls Development Challenge is small potatoes by funding standards:

 

http://www.governor....n-niagara-falls

 

The operating budget of USA Niagara is irrelevant to the support the state is willing to throw into the region. You have no idea of what's in the planning stages, what's being proposed and negotiated. We do know that Milstein and Cuomo are very tight, to the point of raising conflicts questions.

 

So without jumping to the eventuality of a retractable dome stadium to be built on land somewhere in WNY, it's good to see that NYS is at least looking to save some taxpayer dollars by combining projects.

[GG]

NF has tried entertainment (the Casino) and shopping (outlets). It hasn't worked. Why would it now? As for more convention square footage, where is the demand? It would just steal business from the nearby Buffalo Convention Center. Why would the State be interested in that?

 

Google is your friend.

 

...

While the conference center has consistently grown its convention schedule, it still lags behind the new Scotiabank Convention Centre on the other side of the border.

The conference center on Old Falls Street saw 13 conventions and 117 meetings and conferences in 2012. The average convention size was 775 attendees while the average conference or meeting drew 99 people. The largest convention at the conference center in 2012 — the American Culinary Federation Convention — drew 900 people. The conference center saw 22,000 visitors in total last year.

By comparison, the Scotiabank Convention Centre on the Canadian side of the Falls — which opened in 2011 — saw 130 events, 70 of which were conferences and trade shows, in 2012. Those averaged about 750 people per event and their largest convention drew 25,000 people. The center has seen about 250,000 people a year since opening, according to numbers provided by the center’s staff.

Kerry Painter, the president and general manager of the Scotiabank Convention Centre, said that the state-of-the-art facility she runs would not be nearly as successful as it has been without the glut of high-end options for visitors within walking distance of the center.

[Lurker]

You have no idea of what's in the planning stages, what's being proposed and negotiated.

Do you? I keep a pretty close eye on what Empire State Development is doing and outside of the Rainbow Center project, I don't see any 'game changers' on the horizon...including a (transportation challenged) stadium proposal.

 

Including Dyster on the stadium panel is a nice shout out to regionalism, but I don't give Niagara Falls more than a 10% chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes.

[Homey D. Clown]

Jeez... I really hope beyond all hope this never happens. I can't for the life of me see anyone supporting this idea, when downtown Buffalo is now on the rise, and really needing this as an anchor to its waterfront. I love RWS, it was always a fun ride out to the country as a kid, but the stadium belongs in the city which bears it's name. It would be just another punch in the gut to the city of Buffalo and all that the county has given over the last 5 plus decades. I can't see anyone in Erie county office even letting this happen even if it gains any traction, which it really shouldn't. And lets just factor out the fact that downtown Niagara falls by and large is still a colossal mess(tried not to call it a dump, but how will the aerial shots of the stadium look as it sits within a sniff of Mount Trashmore)?

 

Improve the peace bridge, and I'm sorry to say, but the drive to Buffalo isn't that much further, in fact, it would still be shorter a drive than going to Orchard Park. There is literally no benefit to putting it anywhere else, at least nothing I have read here or anywhere else that is enough to put an NFL stadium in that city.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Homey D. Clown

[GG]

Do you? I keep a pretty close eye on what Empire State Development is doing and outside of the Rainbow Center project, I don't see any 'game changers' on the horizon...including a (transportation challenged) stadium proposal.

 

Including Dyster on the stadium panel is a nice shout out to regionalism, but I don't give Niagara Falls more than a 10% chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes.

 

I don't know what's being proposed. But I also know that Lt Gov wouldn't be throwing out site recommendations out of the blue.

[Mr. WEO]

Google is your friend.

 

Yes it is. But it was harder to find all the evidence that the State is going "full in" in NF.

 

Also, your google search nicely illustrates the point that adding more convention space (and in NF) would be a bad idea. Let Ms. Kerry Painter tell you why:

 

"Kerry Painter, the president and general manager of the Scotiabank Convention Centre, said that the state-of-the-art facility she runs would not be nearly as successful as it has been without the glut of high-end options for visitors within walking distance of the center".

 

Rather than a glut, NF has a dearth of high end options withing walking distance of Mr. Milstein's 140 acre "Redevelopment zone" (since 2003--undeveloped) wonderland.

 

So, again, adding a 3rd convention center to the area makes little sense. Especially since any convention center depends on local entertainment attractions to survive. By all accounts, this country has a glut of convention space--including in places much more attractive than NF. (Google "convention center glut", and stand back...). New convention construction is a bad idea. New convention center construction as a means to rejuvinate a small decaying town is the definition of predictable failure and makes no sense policy-wise or as an development investment. Just crazy.

[GG]

Yes it is. But it was harder to find all the evidence that the State is going "full in" in NF.

 

Also, your google search nicely illustrates the point that adding more convention space (and in NF) would be a bad idea. Let Ms. Kerry Painter tell you why:

 

"Kerry Painter, the president and general manager of the Scotiabank Convention Centre, said that the state-of-the-art facility she runs would not be nearly as successful as it has been without the glut of high-end options for visitors within walking distance of the center".

 

Rather than a glut, NF has a dearth of high end options withing walking distance of Mr. Milstein's 140 acre "Redevelopment zone" (since 2003--undeveloped) wonderland.

 

So, again, adding a 3rd convention center to the area makes little sense. Especially since any convention center depends on local entertainment attractions to survive. By all accounts, this country has a glut of convention space--including in places much more attractive than NF. (Google "convention center glut", and stand back...). New convention construction is a bad idea. New convention center construction as a means to rejuvinate a small decaying town is the definition of predictable failure and makes no sense policy-wise or as an development investment. Just crazy.

 

I know you like to be intentionally obtuse to stimulate an argument, but it doesn't fly with me. The OP story was not to discuss the merits of putting the stadium in Niagara Falls, it was about the state recommending other sites for consideration, because the state obviously wants joint use facilities if it is going to throw in development funds.

 

Now you can continue with your circle fest on why Niagara Falls NY hasn't lived up to its promise, but that doesn't lessen the fact that NF is the second most popular tourist destination in the state, yet most of the tourism dollars go to the Canadian side. It doesn't take a genius to understand that it's in the state's best interest to figure out a way to even out the dollar flow.

[Delete This Account]

I know you like to be intentionally obtuse to stimulate an argument, but it doesn't fly with me. The OP story was not to discuss the merits of putting the stadium in Niagara Falls, it was about the state recommending other sites for consideration, because the state obviously wants joint use facilities if it is going to throw in development funds.

 

Now you can continue with your circle fest on why Niagara Falls NY hasn't lived up to its promise, but that doesn't lessen the fact that NF is the second most popular tourist destination in the state, yet most of the tourism dollars go to the Canadian side. It doesn't take a genius to understand that it's in the state's best interest to figure out a way to even out the dollar flow.

 

[Hammered a Lot]

Do you? I keep a pretty close eye on what Empire State Development is doing and outside of the Rainbow Center project, I don't see any 'game changers' on the horizon...including a (transportation challenged) stadium proposal.

 

Including Dyster on the stadium panel is a nice shout out to regionalism, but I don't give Niagara Falls more than a 10% chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes.

[Mr. WEO]

I know you like to be intentionally obtuse to stimulate an argument, but it doesn't fly with me. The OP story was not to discuss the merits of putting the stadium in Niagara Falls, it was about the state recommending other sites for consideration, because the state obviously wants joint use facilities if it is going to throw in development funds.

 

Now you can continue with your circle fest on why Niagara Falls NY hasn't lived up to its promise, but that doesn't lessen the fact that NF is the second most popular tourist destination in the state, yet most of the tourism dollars go to the Canadian side. It doesn't take a genius to understand that it's in the state's best interest to figure out a way to even out the dollar flow.

 

I think it's pretty clear that the OP was breaking the news that NF is being considered. That much (such as it was) is clear. But you and others have moved the discussion towards the merits of why it should be considered. I disagree with your reasoning as to why it is in the state's best interest. Nothing obtuse here. If the state had such a burning interest, it would have addressed it long ago. It wouldn't have waited for the serendipitous passing or Mr. Wilson to sudden bestow all sorts or public largess (well, whatever "full in" means) on NF in order to "even out the dollar flow". A convention center, as suggested, is a very bad idea.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[Delete This Account]

Do you? I keep a pretty close eye on what Empire State Development is doing and outside of the Rainbow Center project, I don't see any 'game changers' on the horizon...including a (transportation challenged) stadium proposal.

 

Including Dyster on the stadium panel is a nice shout out to regionalism, but I don't give Niagara Falls more than a 10% chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes.

 

so, let me get this straight. you don't see any "game-changers" on the horizon, while acknowledging NF has at least a 10 percent chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes. essentially, you're saying a stadium in Niagara Falls could essentially be on the horizon.

 

i'm not into arguing the merits for or against Niagara Falls, but all this talk about "transportation-challenged" Niagara Falls is a bit thin. let me get this straight: should NF, by the very slight chance, actually be selected as a location for a new stadium, this new stadium would materialize out of the Falls mist in virtually an instant before anyone has any iota of a time to plan for never mind improve the infrastructure.

 

jw

 

and who would the powers that be turn to if not, say, the NYState Thruway Authority, which would probably be completely caught off guard by these developments because, oh wait ...

Edited April 15, 2014 by john wawrow

[Lurker]

If the state had such a burning interest, it would have addressed it long ago. It wouldn't have waited for the serendipitous passing or Mr. Wilson to sudden bestow all sorts or public largess

 

Well, it does make some sense for the state to wait and see how the post-Ralph ownership situation will shake out, much as it's doing now.

 

While he was alive, Ralph wasn't looking for a new stadium, only improvements to the existing facility. IIRC, Every time a new stadium proposal came up, Ralph would poo poo it So New York State saying "hey, Ralph, how about a new stadium" wouldn't have been much of a starter.

 

Personally, I don't see a Niagara Falls location as logistically viable, but a new downtown Buffalo venue makes good sense, especially if it can leverage the Canalside investments already underway.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&q=Canalside&fb=1&gl=us&hq=canalside&cid=3480545830268820180&ei=xrNNU7S4NdDnsAS744KYAw&ved=0CJQBEPwSMAw

[Prickly Pete]

Google is your friend.

 

Getting Canadian businesses to hold conventions in Niagara Falls, Canada, is a whole different thing than getting American companies to hold conventions in Niagara Falls USA. Obviously, Toronto is the biggest city in Canada, and for Canadians Southern Ontario is a real destination (and they certainly aren't going to book on the US side). For American companies, heading north to WNY is, well...not so appealing. WNY will never be a big area for conventions.

 

Obviously, one of the buyers is interested in moving the Bills to NF, but I don't believe it will happen for the variety of reasons people have posted here.

[Delete This Account]

Well, it does make some sense for the state to wait and see how the post-Ralph ownership situation will shake out, much as it's doing now.

 

While he was alive, Ralph wasn't looking for a new stadium, only improvements to the existing facility. IIRC, Every time a new stadium proposal came up, Ralph would poo poo it So New York State saying "hey, Ralph, how about a new stadium" wouldn't have been much of a starter.

 

Personally, I don't see a Niagara Falls location as logistically viable, but a new downtown Buffalo venue makes good sense, especially if it can leverage the Canalside investments already underway.

 

https://maps.google....ed=0CJQBEPwSMAw

 

there are questions regarding rising land prices in Buffalo, and that the chance for finding an ideal location in the city may have passed Buffalo by. ... note, i said ideal. i didn't say "any."

 

jw

[Lurker]

so, let me get this straight. you don't see any "game-changers" on the horizon, while acknowledging NF has at least a 10 percent chance of winning the site selection sweepstakes. essentially, you're saying a stadium in Niagara Falls could essentially be on the horizon.

John, I'm not sure why you're twisting my words. Anything's possible when it comes to New York State politics, but IMO a 10% likelihood is pretty slim, not something on the "horizon." Sort of like the Sabres making the playoffs next year (might happen, but nah...no it won't).

 

So Duffy say "Niagara Falls" and we're supposed to think he's doing anything more than being courteous to Paul Dyster--who's a good guy by Niagara Falls mayoral standards and a team player in the regional planning environment that Cuomo's pushing across the state. Not much of a commitment, more like an off hand comment from a guy who's got one foot out the door on his way back to Flower City to run the Rochester Business Alliance.

 

As I said in a previous post, I don't think the transportation infrastructure to and from downtown Niagara Falls is anywhere near capable of handling a game day scenario. The Robert Moses is a parkway, not a high volume highway. It would take years of planning to build a new highway (take the Route 219 extension as an example), and involve significant money from Washington--where the appetite to send dollars to a Democratic state led by a potential 2016 or 2020 presidential candidate would be next to nil.

 

Connecting the dots from the Thruway Authority to Milstein is a stretch in my opinion, since that's just a figurehead office. He has no power to commit multiple millions of dollars to a new highway that's not currently part of the Thruway system anymore than you or I do.

 

Lastly, even if the idea of a Niagara Falls location somehow managed to get a little traction, the backlash from the Erie County political establishment would be enormous and Cuomo would never want to get on the wrong side of that...the "Buffalo Billion" is all about winning Erie County, which Andrew's fixated on a whole lot more than it's little neighbor to the north.

 

I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. Let's just let this discussion go and save SDS some server space...

[Delete This Account]

John, I'm not sure why you're twisting my words. Anything's possible when it comes to New York State politics, but IMO a 10% likelihood is pretty slim, not something on the "horizon." Sort of like the Sabres making the playoffs next year (might happen, but nah...no it won't).

 

So Duffy say "Niagara Falls" and we're supposed to think he's doing anything more than being courteous to Paul Dyster--who's a good guy by Niagara Falls mayoral standards and a team player in the regional planning environment that Cuomo's pushing across the state. Not much of a commitment, more like an off hand comment from a guy who's got one foot out the door on his way back to Flower City to run the Rochester Business Alliance.

 

As I said in a previous post, I don't think the transportation infrastructure to and from downtown Niagara Falls is anywhere near capable of handling a game day scenario. The Robert Moses is a parkway, not a high volume highway. It would take years of planning to build a new highway (take the Route 219 extension as an example), and involve significant money from Washington--where the appetite to send dollars to a Democratic state led by a potential 2016 or 2020 presidential candidate would be next to nil.

 

Connecting the dots from the Thruway Authority to Milstein is a stretch in my opinion, since that's just a figurehead office. He has no power to commit multiple millions of dollars to a new highway that's not currently part of the Thruway system anymore than you or I do.

 

Lastly, even if the idea of a Niagara Falls location somehow managed to get a little traction, the backlash from the Erie County political establishment would be enormous and Cuomo would never want to get on the wrong side of that...the "Buffalo Billion" is all about winning Erie County, which Andrew's fixated on a whole lot more than it's little neighbor to the north.

 

I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. Let's just let this discussion go and save SDS some server space...

 

here's the thing, we were going to report the Niagara Falls angle with or without Duffy and with or without Dyster.

their comments did not prompt the story.

 

jw

[Gugny]

John, I'm not sure why you're twisting my words. Anything's possible when it comes to New York State politics, but IMO a 10% likelihood is pretty slim, not something on the "horizon." Sort of like the Sabres making the playoffs next year (might happen, but nah...no it won't).

 

So Duffy say "Niagara Falls" and we're supposed to think he's doing anything more than being courteous to Paul Dyster--who's a good guy by Niagara Falls mayoral standards and a team player in the regional planning environment that Cuomo's pushing across the state. Not much of a commitment, more like an off hand comment from a guy who's got one foot out the door on his way back to Flower City to run the Rochester Business Alliance.

 

As I said in a previous post, I don't think the transportation infrastructure to and from downtown Niagara Falls is anywhere near capable of handling a game day scenario. The Robert Moses is a parkway, not a high volume highway. It would take years of planning to build a new highway (take the Route 219 extension as an example), and involve significant money from Washington--where the appetite to send dollars to a Democratic state led by a potential 2016 or 2020 presidential candidate would be next to nil.

 

Connecting the dots from the Thruway Authority to Milstein is a stretch in my opinion, since that's just a figurehead office. He has no power to commit multiple millions of dollars to a new highway that's not currently part of the Thruway system anymore than you or I do.

 

Lastly, even if the idea of a Niagara Falls location somehow managed to get a little traction, the backlash from the Erie County political establishment would be enormous and Cuomo would never want to get on the wrong side of that...the "Buffalo Billion" is all about winning Erie County, which Andrew's fixated on a whole lot more than it's little neighbor to the north.

 

I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. Let's just let this discussion go and save SDS some server space...

You sure have a lot of posts for a lurker.

[Lurker]

You sure have a lot of posts for a lurker.

You're right. I gave this place up a long wile back, but Ralph's passing seems to have sucked me back into TSW's gravitational pull. Better hit the afterburners and scram back out of here...

[Gugny]

You're right. I gave this place up a long wile back, but Ralph's passing seems to have sucked me back into TSW's gravitational pull. Better hit the afterburners and scram back out of here...

Why? It's fun. Especially when Beerball isn't around.