BmarvB Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I think one of the most underrated changes that needs to occur on ST is to get a capable punter in here...that was the most noticeable deficiency to me. Sadly, Moorman is not what he used to be. Unless he has a big bounceback season, his time in the league may be up.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 You know how you get "core special teamers"? You coach up the bottom of your roster. This is ridiculous. By that logic we should just pick players based on their measurables. We could have a whole team of underwear olympics champions.
bigK14094 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Well, the employment of coaches is a complex calculus. Marrones selection and handling of Crossman is not smart on the face of it. But, the coaching fraternity is networked pretty good, and I speculate that Marrone's handling of Crossman impacted favorability of hiring of Schwartz as DC. Schwartz could have sat home and collect his 5 mil from the Lions....but he choose to come to work for the Bills. That was a big plus for the bills...probabily bigger than the negative of retaining Crossman. But, still, this special teams coaching thing so reminds me of the Wade Phillips/Ronnie White case of yesteryear. So, Marrone is in charge, and we are going with his decisions and instinct on coaaching. I am on board...but concerned as are we all, I guess.
BillnutinHouston Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Well, the employment of coaches is a complex calculus. Marrones selection and handling of Crossman is not smart on the face of it. But, the coaching fraternity is networked pretty good, and I speculate that Marrone's handling of Crossman impacted favorability of hiring of Schwartz as DC. Schwartz could have sat home and collect his 5 mil from the Lions....but he choose to come to work for the Bills. That was a big plus for the bills...probabily bigger than the negative of retaining Crossman. But, still, this special teams coaching thing so reminds me of the Wade Phillips/Ronnie White case of yesteryear. So, Marrone is in charge, and we are going with his decisions and instinct on coaaching. I am on board...but concerned as are we all, I guess. Interesting take about the possibility of Marrone retaining Crossman as a means of luring Schwartz. I knew that Crossman and Marrone are good friends, but how about Crossman and Schwartz? Edited April 4, 2014 by BillnutinHouston
Beerball Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 By that logic we should just pick players based on their measurables. We could have a whole team of underwear olympics champions. I don't want to put words in Tuesday's mouth, but, I believe he's saying the exact opposite of what you are implying. Typically core special teamers are the bottom of the roster, guys just a bit too small or just a bit too slow to play consistently on offense or defense. They are typically guys who love the game and go balls out. Underwear olympic champions?
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I don't want to put words in Tuesday's mouth, but, I believe he's saying the exact opposite of what you are implying. Typically core special teamers are the bottom of the roster, guys just a bit too small or just a bit too slow to play consistently on offense or defense. They are typically guys who love the game and go balls out. Underwear olympic champions? I am implying that the guys we had on the bottom of the roster are there fighting for a spot and they may not have the correct mental attitude to play special teams well - comparing that to someone who has all the physical gifts to play football but does not have the mental fortitude to play like a combine champion. Not every player can be "coached up", and there are a lot of players (especially high picks) that coaches took because of their high ceiling but in the end they could not play the game (eg Jamarcus Russell). Going "balls out" on ST also takes discipline and having your head on a swivel. There are guys who have made a living at it and they are valued commodities, say like Tasker. So the mental side of the game is important and that may not be able to be "coached up" hence bringing in folks who have the capacity to play on ST.
OldTimer1960 Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) You know how you get "core special teamers"? You coach up the bottom of your roster. This is ridiculous. Why is it logical to think that the offense and defense need good players in order to succeed, but the Special Teams coach is supposed to take any group of players regardless of talent and desire and make them into a good unit? I am not a huge Crossman fan, but he has been in the league for some time, so some coaches think he belongs. Not to defend him, but recall how decimated the secondary was to start last season? That caused turnover on the bottom of the roster as backups/special teamers were forced to play defense and Crossman had to make due with the guys signed off the street. At least give him a chance this year and see how they do. If they are still bottom of the league, then we'll suspect that it is mostly or at least partly Crossman's fault. Edited April 5, 2014 by OldTimer1960
Beerball Posted April 5, 2014 Author Posted April 5, 2014 I am implying that the guys we had on the bottom of the roster are there fighting for a spot and they may not have the correct mental attitude to play special teams well - comparing that to someone who has all the physical gifts to play football but does not have the mental fortitude to play like a combine champion. Not every player can be "coached up", and there are a lot of players (especially high picks) that coaches took because of their high ceiling but in the end they could not play the game (eg Jamarcus Russell). Going "balls out" on ST also takes discipline and having your head on a swivel. There are guys who have made a living at it and they are valued commodities, say like Tasker. So the mental side of the game is important and that may not be able to be "coached up" hence bringing in folks who have the capacity to play on ST. OK...so, where do your special team players come from? Either you're using starters or most of them are backups (as it is with all teams). If they are backups they are the bottom of your roster. What did the OP say about "core special teamers?" (hint...they come from the bottom of the roster)
T master Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) http://espn.go.com/b...s-special-teams Color me skeptical...show me. The entire thing with this "We need more core ST Players" Is B*** S*** ! Bruce Dehaven had the ST unit at #8 the year before this character took over with (for the most part) all the same players . He (Crossman) took a #8 unit just by his coaching & dropped it from 8 to what like 29 or something like that REALLY . If Whaley brings in all this help & not much if anything changes as far as the ST ranking then Crossman needs to be FIRED period . Hopefully Marrone will have what it takes as a coach to separate friendship from business & fire his bud , but i think if Crossman has even the slightest increase in standings Marrone will make more excuses for his buddy . But you know ow excuses are they're like A holes every ones got one & they usually stink !! The tapes tell it all , all the info that Marrone needed was there before he made the hire & i can't understand why new coaches coming in don't look closer to how these individual units were doing prior to the new staff coming in & the new coach doesn't have brains enough to realize . IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT - DUH Leave your ego out of it & think of the team first , If they would have kept 2 coaches instead of letting them go Dehaven & Joe D last year could have looked a lot different !! Edited April 5, 2014 by T master
Manther Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Another thing about Crossman that I don't like is we were bottom 3 in the League in punt and kick returns. Maybe even last? Can someone help me understand this. My thought is that it has to be a philosophy thing?! If so, that is disturbing. We have game changers in McKelvin, Goodwin and company kneeling the ball more than any other team. It reminds me of Jauron trying to keep games close, but, not win them. Is it just coincedence or philosophy? A good example of this was the last game against the Pats they were running all over a wet field for tons of yards and we were kneeling the ball almost every single time. Thoughts?
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 http://espn.go.com/b...s-special-teams Color me skeptical...show me. if he has good players maybe he wont be such a bad coach.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 OK...so, where do your special team players come from? Either you're using starters or most of them are backups (as it is with all teams). If they are backups they are the bottom of your roster. What did the OP say about "core special teamers?" (hint...they come from the bottom of the roster) Of course the bottom, but a couple guys are there primarily because they are good at ST, not because they are the 5 wr or 3rd rb with a chance of developing into a starter. Dixon at rb is a good example, he's probably not going to start or be competition to start as opposed to Ronnie Wingo who could have a chance depending on his development. Both bottom of the roster guys but with different strengths. So maybe we have to take a chance with Ronnie (or some other bubble talent player) on the PS because of Dixon.
Beerball Posted April 5, 2014 Author Posted April 5, 2014 if he has good players maybe he wont be such a bad coach. Team had (IMO) better depth last year than the 3 prior years yet the level of play on ST went down the drain. Splain that one to me.
NoSaint Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Interesting take about the possibility of Marrone retaining Crossman as a means of luring Schwartz. I knew that Crossman and Marrone are good friends, but how about Crossman and Schwartz? Schwartz kept Crossman through his meltdown in Detroit. You would think that when in consecutive weeks they gave up both a kick and punt return td in the same game, and later a lion kick returner took a knee on the 5 yard line.... If not a friend he'd be fired QUICKLY. Instead he was held until we hired him away mid January when marrone put together his staff. Edited April 5, 2014 by NoSaint
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