Chandler#81 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Do we have a lawyer here? I'm not so sure about this. Check the source. KellytoReed babbles just so he can read his own posts.He's 'been telling' us... pfffft..
Chandler#81 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I am a long, long time follower of this board; though rare participant. Recent events in the Bills world make this thread, for me, one of the most important in memory. That, and preceding comments, move me to contribute. I believe the announcement of a potentially accelerated Bills sale means one of two things; either the fix was in with Rogers all along regarding a move to Toronto or Jim Kelly wasn't blowing smoke when assuring us that measures were being taken by significant people to keep the Bills in Buffalo. I don't believe any other move option (i.e., L.A.) would materialize this quickly. Let me first provide some context. I was born and raised in Niagara so I know WNY very well. But I also know Toronto. Niagara is the Canadian equivalent of the Niagara Frontier for Buffalonians. Anything south of Hamilton is Niagara and is Bills country. Sure, there are all kinds of NFL fans in Niagara who support other teams. But Niagarans who declare as Bills fans demonstrate the same passion and historical loyalty to the franchise as Buffalonians. We watch every game religiously, attend as many as we can, feel sick after losses, wear the colours and pick up even the slightest mention of the Bills in any crowded room no matter where we are in the world. Regarding the Toronto fears, following is my line of reasoning: - T.O. is a big city that has now proven it can support major league sports e.g., MLB, NBA - Rogers has very deep pockets, can afford a team and a stadium, and has greatly impressed the NFL - Outside of the Leafs, Toronto will only support a winner through attendance; but don't be fooled, it can afford a non-winner - Actions are underway to move the Argonauts out of the Rogers Centre and to an open air stadium - Toronto, Canadians in general, and the Government of Canada have significantly relaxed their opinions about the co-existence of the CFL and the NFL in Toronto - It is my opinion that extensive discussions have taken place between Rogers and the NFL about putting a team in Toronto and I believe that it will come to pass sooner than later. This does not necessarily mean the Bills, but Ted Rogers would certainly have included that as one option when he agreed to the one-game-a-year deal with Ralph. - On a side note, in response to someone's earlier conjecture that Canadians of one region (Quebec) hate those in another (Toronto), you are wrong. There is serious regional rivalries, but don't think for a second that would prevent Montrealers who love the NFL from travelling to Toronto to watch a game. I've lived in Ottawa for many years now and am amazed how many rabid Bills fans there are in Montreal. They frequently fill buses and travel to Orchard Park for games. Regarding the Bills-will-remain-in-Buffalo line of thinking: - There are many declared advocates who hold important positions in the NFL, the city and region, state and business - Ralph not only never mentioned a Bills move in all his years, he constructed a lease agreement that survived him to make it particularly difficult - Jim Kelly, whenever challenged, spoke as directly as he could to the fact that there were multiple, serious businessmen interested in keeping the Bills in Buffalo - The new stadium research committee is comprised of some very impressive business and political leaders. These people have no interest in wasting their and everyone else's time With the speed of this thing, my gut tells me it is a WNY group that is stepping up to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Kelly was the go-between and events are now unfolding as planned. Great 1st post. Welcome aboard 51to3!
GunnerBill Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Do we have a lawyer here? I'm not so sure about this. I'm not quite a lawyer, but I am a public policy expert on civil and contract law, albeit in the UK. I don't speak with total authority on US law but many of the principles carry through and in a sense Kellyto83 is correct. The way contract law and civil law works is that you have rights and if those rights are breached you can challenge that breach and potentially recover for any loss caused. So essentially if an LA businessman bought the Bills and moved them overnight then Buffalo could sue for breach of contract and the LA guy would presumably defend the law suit and what he would be liable for as the lost would be in the hands of the court. The one area that I'm less sure about is whether there is any ability to secure injunctive relief in such cases under US law. In the UK for example, Buffalo could go to court to seek a temporary injunctive order to prevent the move happening pending the outcome of the breach of contract case. Unfortunately, there are few absolutes in civil law and contract law... and if someone wants to breach a contract and is willing to pay a potentially large financial penalty for doing so then there is not much one can do about that. Having said all that - I do believe that the possible early sale is good news. I know it's not a universally held view but I think Russ is a smart cookie. His dream was to be the CEO of an NFL team, now he is in that position and I'm dead certain he hasn't sat there the last year or two thinking "oh well it'll be a nice run till Ralph dies and then I'll do something else". I am positive he will have been working with people behind the scenes to put something in place. I think the new ownership will be Buffalo based and I strongly suspect it will be a group comfortable with retaining Brandon as CEO. Edited April 4, 2014 by GunnerBill
ThurmasThoman Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 On top of that, I foresee naming rights to happen this year as well. With the stadium being renovated, and Ralph no longer here, I see the naming rights going to someone soon. Rich, Delaware North, New Era, Wegmans, Geico...with some special consideration made for Ralph to honor him and the stadium. no way. someday, probably, but there is not a human being in the world that would buy this team and turn around and sell the naming rights to the stadium after the (namesake) owner recently passed away.
xsoldier54 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Well Canadians, get ready for your Rogers Cable and Cell phone Bills to increase again............ Why, is Rogers planning on giving better services? They sure ain't buying the Bills.
Mango Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Although Kelly's earliest public references to an ownership group predates Pegula's purchase of the Sabres, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Pegula is actually involved in Kelly's group. I think Pegula was always part of that group, although nothing was announced. FWIW I used to date a girl, whose family was very close, and business partners with Pegula. Did not realize how much money they where worth then, but am kicking myself now. It's OK, the middle class is treating me well. Jim Kelly is also a close family friend of theirs. The connection is pretty direct, even though it sounds weak.
Gordio Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I always found it interesting that Pegula bought a sports agency with some NFL Clients, started the Pegula Sports and Entertainment Group and self financed the building of the HarborCenter in Downtown Buffalo. I think he would be willing to pay 300-400 million of his own money to get a new stadium built. Kelly's Group probably is the front runner, but who is to say Pegula has not agreed to become a primary investor in it? Pure speculation on my part of course. I don't think people realize how wealthy Pegla is. He donated $100 million dollars to Penn State Hockey. I read tat if he did own an NFL franchise he would be the 5th Wealthiest Owner in the League. He basically has an everlasting ATM machine in the fact that anytime he wants to make more money he just drills more gas wells. It all depends on if he has the interest to own the team. Hockey is his first love. But make no mistake about it, if he wants to own the Bills he will end up owning the Bills.
Kellyto83TD Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 With the way Brandon Acted at his PC announcing he was running things I just felt that behind the scenes this had already been taken care of AND his job was secure. If it is Pegula (and I am with you guys in researching him odds are he is the guy) how will he be as an owner? I can say honestly if I had the money and bought the team, I would extend Russ, and Whaley immediately. No one knows the area, the businesses and how to try and market the Bills like Russ and I like Whaley, I want to see what he can do with this team over say the next 5 years. I mean will Pegula have an emphasis to get the biggest ROI he can which = 'Major league' this team or will it be to win? I honestly don't give a **** who gets it, I just want the team to start winning
mannc Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Do we have a lawyer here? I'm not so sure about this. It is largely incorrect, but without actually seeing the contract, it is impossible to say for sure what would happen. Some liquidated damage provisions are enforceable and some aren't. It depends on lots of different factors. And it is also possible that there is language in the contract that would provide for injunctive relief to prevent a new owner from breaking the lease.
bisonbrigade Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 It was not a secret that Ralph Wilson was 90 years old and in poor health. Someone was ready to pull out there credit card when he passed away. But whom?
May Day 10 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 With the way Brandon Acted at his PC announcing he was running things I just felt that behind the scenes this had already been taken care of AND his job was secure. If it is Pegula (and I am with you guys in researching him odds are he is the guy) how will he be as an owner? I can say honestly if I had the money and bought the team, I would extend Russ, and Whaley immediately. No one knows the area, the businesses and how to try and market the Bills like Russ and I like Whaley, I want to see what he can do with this team over say the next 5 years. I mean will Pegula have an emphasis to get the biggest ROI he can which = 'Major league' this team or will it be to win? I honestly don't give a **** who gets it, I just want the team to start winning I wonder if he had learned his lesson with the Sabres and will immediately nuke the front office this time.
mrags Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 With the way Brandon Acted at his PC announcing he was running things I just felt that behind the scenes this had already been taken care of AND his job was secure. If it is Pegula (and I am with you guys in researching him odds are he is the guy) how will he be as an owner? I can say honestly if I had the money and bought the team, I would extend Russ, and Whaley immediately. No one knows the area, the businesses and how to try and market the Bills like Russ and I like Whaley, I want to see what he can do with this team over say the next 5 years. I mean will Pegula have an emphasis to get the biggest ROI he can which = 'Major league' this team or will it be to win? I honestly don't give a **** who gets it, I just want the team to start winning which brings me to a point that I've wanted to bring up for a while now. Unless your one of the families that inherited the team from your relatives, or purchased a long time ago, you aren't making money in the NFL. What I mean is, anybody that purchases a team (let's just say Pegula) is already assuming a $1B+ check to cough up. Chances are they are also assuming at minimum, a few hundred million in changes right away or within a few years. There's a really good chance they also expect to have to fork over at least $1/2B+ for either stadium upgrades, or relocation (probably with some help from the community). That all adds up to... There's no way, any new owner expecting to spend all this money on a new team is expecting a return on their investment. There's just no way they will make up $1-2B in their lifetime owning an NFL team. Hell, Ralph owned the team for 50+ years and only bought it for $35k and never paid more than a few hundred million in stadium renovations and he's not worth $2B without his assets. What I'm saying is, new owners don't buy NFL teams for the money. They do it because they are fans of the game. They are sports team gurus. And they love the city they own the team in. With all that said, I think the new owner of the Bills will be a fan. A fan that has unlined pockets (Pegula, Galisano, Rich, Jacobs, Buffett, or any combination of then together) that either loves this team, loves this town, or may be trying to build a legacy in this area.
Campy Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Been telling you guys this. Mary Wilson does not want the team this was made clear years ago. Ralphs will said to sell it ASAP based on league rules, that has been known (and apparently ignored) as well. Now for the final part fans ignore, an owner CAN Move the bills and pretty much ignore the 400 mill fine. No Court will ever force a person or business to be a tenant. AND WNY must prove to a court they suffered 400 million in damages and they will never be able to. Now a new owner may keep the team here, but fans need to quit wishing and start dealing in facts. Try renting an apartment and informing the landlord you are moving out after 4 months and see if you don't end up having a court-awarded judgment slapped on you. In other words, you are 100% wrong on this.
May Day 10 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 ... unless the team increases in value. Golisano didnt make money on the Sabres at all... but once he sold....
mrags Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Try renting an apartment and informing the landlord you are moving out after 4 months and see if you don't end up having a court-awarded judgment slapped on you. In other words, you are 100% wrong on this. as a landlord, I can tell you that's not true. Site, you could take anyone to court for breach of their lease, but that doesn't mean they have to pay it. It's your responsibility as the landlord to hint then down and recoup your funds. Say for example, the tenants are under SS disability, good luck getting a fine from them for breaking their lease. This goes the other way too, say for example you try and evict them because they are 3 months late in their rent. If they are publicly assisted, your not evicting anyone. Sure, to most normal people who pay their bills it seems logical, but to scumbags that try and cheat the system and everything involved with it, your going to have a miserable couple months. I know there's much more intelligent lawyer speak to explain this but I'm no lawyer but I am a landlord and I know what rights I don't have.
mrags Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 ... unless the team increases in value. Golisano didnt make money on the Sabres at all... but once he sold.... thats different. Thy wasn't a $Billion+ Investment he was getting Into. $200M is easily recouped when your a Billionaire. And it's not like he made a ton of the team. Maybe $150M and I don't think it was even that much. I think it was closer to $80M which is peanuts. Especially considering any costs that he acquired while owning the team.
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I'm not quite a lawyer, but I am a public policy expert on civil and contract law, albeit in the UK. I don't speak with total authority on US law but many of the principles carry through and in a sense Kellyto83 is correct. The way contract law and civil law works is that you have rights and if those rights are breached you can challenge that breach and potentially recover for any loss caused. So essentially if an LA businessman bought the Bills and moved them overnight then Buffalo could sue for breach of contract and the LA guy would presumably defend the law suit and what he would be liable for as the lost would be in the hands of the court. The one area that I'm less sure about is whether there is any ability to secure injunctive relief in such cases under US law. In the UK for example, Buffalo could go to court to seek a temporary injunctive order to prevent the move happening pending the outcome of the breach of contract case. Unfortunately, there are few absolutes in civil law and contract law... and if someone wants to breach a contract and is willing to pay a potentially large financial penalty for doing so then there is not much one can do about that. Having said all that - I do believe that the possible early sale is good news. I know it's not a universally held view but I think Russ is a smart cookie. His dream was to be the CEO of an NFL team, now he is in that position and I'm dead certain he hasn't sat there the last year or two thinking "oh well it'll be a nice run till Ralph dies and then I'll do something else". I am positive he will have been working with people behind the scenes to put something in place. I think the new ownership will be Buffalo based and I strongly suspect it will be a group comfortable with retaining Brandon as CEO. A couple things to consider that are very different in the NFL. The NFL and the other owners MUST approve the sale. So, technically even if Mary Wilson wanted to sell the team to an LA businessman, she would need their approval. Now Mary and the potential buyer could sue the NFL if they denied the sale. Second, any relocation of a franchise must be separately approved. Why would the NFL void it's own contract ? I think there is ZERO possibility the team moves before the 7 year out clause. I think we are all wasting space considering a move before year 7 as a viable option. That doesn't mean this team won't be sold to a person, and that person will eventually move the team in year 7, it is just so unlikely that it would happen before that time, it's not worth talking about. Let's focus on who and when it will be sold and what that person's longer term intentions are for the team. Edited April 4, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN
Gordio Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I think it can be argued that the NFL is failing in Jacksonville. I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, especially in light of relocating the Bills. Not only is there an inherent risk in a new market, the league would be walking away from an established market, albeit relatively small. Expansion is one thing- relocating adds another important dimension. The problem with Jacksonville is it is a college town. They are rtight in the middle of University of Georgia & Florida & they are in the heart of SEC country. College football rules in the south, not the NFL.
thebandit27 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 A couple things to consider that are very different in the NFL. The NFL and the other owners MUST approve the sale. So, technically even if Mary Wilson wanted to sell the team to an LA businessman, she would need their approval. Now Mary and the potential buyer could sue the NFL if they denied the sale. Second, any relocation of a franchise must be separately approved. Why would the NFL void it's own contract ? I think there is ZERO possibility the team moves before the 7 year out clause. I think we are all wasting space considering a move before year 7 as a viable option. That doesn't mean this team won't be sold to a person, and that person will eventually move the team in year 7, it is just so unlikely that it would happen before that time, it's not worth talking about. Let's focus on who and when it will be sold and what that person's longer term intentions are for the team. One minor caveat to the above: the 7-year benchmark is not an out clause...it just lowers the penalty to $28M for breaching the contract--it doesn't change the contract terms. This was done to allow for a lower-cost out for the team in case a new stadium is completed by that time. Such a new stadium would (presumably) appease a court of law that no irreparable harm is being done to the County (assuming they stipulate) and allow for the lease to be broken with only a minor compensation to the County. It's as though the County is saying: sure, if you get a stadium built that tells us you're staying by year 7, we'll stipulate that you're staying here and take a relative pittance ($28M) to let you out of that lease.
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