New Stadium or Retrofitting the Ralph?

[BillsFanM.D.]

I am pretty conflicted on this issue. I love Rich Stadium (spent some of the best times of my life there), and for me, it is fine. However, when you go to games in other NFL stadiums, it is hard to overlook what a "dinosaur" the Ralph is.

 

You can't even get the name right. Very conflicted, indeed.

[Buftex]

You can't even get the name right. Very conflicted, indeed.

 

I did that on purpose...I had season tickets when it was Rich Stadium...it wasn't as outdated then as it is in the Ralph phase of its' existence. No disrespect to Mr Wilson, though, it will always be Rich Stadium to me. Even if they tear it down and re-name it the Hagaar Wrinkle Free Slacks For Men Stadium!

[BillnutinHouston]

Four things:

 

1) Do any of us really know exactly what attributes of RWS are considered "deficiencies" by either the league, the Bills or by potential investor groups? I know I've never gotten a good handle on that. Is it the location? Is it a lack of communications infrastructure? Whatever the supposed deficiencies are, they are not necessarily fan amenities being addressed by the current renovation, they are likely of the type that are revenue-limiting in nature. I'm just not sure we know what these are and until we know that, our speculation is pretty aimless.

 

2) Yesterday Russ mentioned that among the tasks that the Stadium Advisory group needs to tackle is "market research". Does this mean trying to answer and clearly define the deficiencies question above? Does it mean trying to determine how an Amherst, Buffalo or Niagara Falls stadium would positively inject more "regional" support/identification into the franchise vs. the longer commute to RWS? Does it mean exploring other transportation options such as expanding rail lines to RWS as was discussed years ago?

 

3) I think PTR is onto something with an Amherst stadium. While my first choice would be a retrofit of RWS, linking the project to the UB campus not only improves the prospects for public (NYS) funding of a new stadium, but it also makes the finished product potentially more economically viable and sustainable over the long haul.

 

4) Let's remember that this group is ADVISING the new owner, so the group's recommendations won't be enacted without the new owner signing a lease. The new owner has to be on board. I wonder how a new owner would view a shared (Bills/UB) stadium vs. having the run of the pace as the Bills do now.

Edited April 2, 2014 by BillnutinHouston

[oman128]

I also live in Orlando and if any of you have ever come here for a Bowl Game to our dumpy Citrus bowl, you'll realize that the RWS is a palace compared to what we currently have. It was so bad that UCF - left the Citrus bowl , and built its own 50,000 seat stadium on campus. I have lived here for 12 years and I went to 1 bowl game several years ago and saw Mich State play Matt Ryan/Boston College. Before the game we were in our seats and Tim Russert walked by I shouted to him, he came over we had a nice "Buffalo Moment" and then he went to the Boston College sideline.

 

Now we have no team that plays in the Citrus Bowl here and our city just invested $200 million for upgrades so when we host the 2 NCAA Bowl Games (Russell Athletic Bowl and the Capital One Bowl) we have a positive look for the TV audience.

 

In all fairness,they also play the Florida Classic in the stadium which is a game between 2 black colleges, and the State High School Football Championships are here also for all 8 divisions. Other than that we host a Monster truck Rally and we even had Wrestlemania a few years ago and an occasional concert. But the stadium location is bad, its in a bad neighborhood that nobody wants to go to , unless your packing heat.

 

Yet our leaders think that we will be hosting the National Championship game as early as 2020 after the renovations which began in January will be ready by November.

 

Yet the Amway Arena about a mile or so away is where our Orlando Magic play in new facility only 4 years old and we have already hosted the NBA All Star game (the night Travon Martin was shot and killed) The facility is part of the Downtown next to bars, clubs, hotels and restaurants, and we have been told by the NBA we did such a good job hosting the ALL star game we will get another.

 

Just 2 weeks ago we hosted the NCAA mens basketball games, the same week they were in Buffalo. I guess my point is that if you build a good stadium in a good area with access to hotels and restaurants and shopping etc the out of town money will follow.

Edited April 2, 2014 by oman128

[ALF]

What will make the next owner want to stay here long term matters the most , then how it's paid for.

[purple haze]

The Cardinals and Arizona State shared a stadium for a long time. Are there other examples of an NFL and D1 team sharing a stadium? Could be a nice marketing/visibility boost for UB as they continue to build that program up.

 

Steelers and Pitt. They also share practice/training facilities.

[simpleman]

The issues are simply

 

1.) What are the legitimate football needs of a stadium to host 8 regular games a year and someday hopefully a couple of playoff games (And a few preseason games.) ?

 

2.) What are the legitimate financial needs (related to stadium facilities) of the new owner to make it profitable enough to keep the Bills in Buffalo and not move the team ?

 

 

I think you have to ask yourself exactly why do we need a new stadium?

 

What is lacking in the current stadium that will make it profitable enough for the new owner to not move the team?

 

Will improving the stadium facilities bring in enough more fans (hence the dollars they spend) to justify the expense?

 

If there is a need for more mass transit to the stadium for only a dozen or so days a year, would it not be better to simply spend more on buses and adding routes and more buses for those few days a year, than hundreds of millions to build a new stadium? ( Who knows, if transportation is a major issue, might it not be a more efficient expenditure of public tax monies to simply provide free park and ride shuttle service from points in Buffalo, NF and Rochester 8 times a year?)

 

Building up the cities of Buffalo or Niagara Falls are separate issues from keeping the Bills in WNY. Don’t confuse them. They have nothing to do with football needs and issues.

[Buftex]

Four things:

 

 

3) I think PTR is onto something with an Amherst stadium. While my first choice would be a retrofit of RWS, linking the project to the UB campus not only improves the prospects for public (NYS) funding of a new stadium, but it also makes the finished product potentially more economically viable and sustainable over the long haul.

 

 

That is a valid point..but having the University involved could be seen as a negative by some NFL owners. Don't know that for sure, and it has been so long since I lived in WNY, so I may not be cognisent of everything. I can tell you though, I work at a major university (Texas). The university has put the kibosh on many outside ventures here in Austin.

 

I realize it may not quite the same dynamic we are talking about with UB, NYS and the Bills... for example, on three different occaisions, since I have been in Austin, the Rolling Stones were in negotions to play the football stadium at UT. They had never once played here (the "live music capital of the world" they say!), but each time, complying with UT rules and regulations (I imagine), UT wanting a healthy cut of vendors intake, and limitiing alchohol sales, the band backed out. It has happened numerous times with large touring events. I just wonder how much the NFL would be willing to deal with this type of thing.

 

I guess it works in Arizona, but that is still one of about 5 or 6 franchises that comes up as teams most likely to move. A lot will depend on how much the NFL really prioritizes keeping the Bills in Buffalo.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Buftex

[Charles Romes]

The options are basically a) fix up RWS b) build new at the RWS site or c) build new elsewhere.

 

Fixing up RWS is the worst idea because there are issues with RWS that you can't fix: the narrow concourses. To fix that you are basically blowing up the whole thing and starting from scratch. And if you do that where do the Bills play for 1-2 years? UB stadium? (30K capacity) Rogers Centre? (Whole seasons in Toronto?? ) Carrier Dome in Syracuse?

 

There is enough room (likely in the lots across Abbott Rd.) to build a new stadium. One advantage is people are used to having the stadium there. They know the roads can handle the traffic etc. Neighbors are already used to having RWS there. (No NIMBY issues.) But it's not the sexiest location and if they wanted to build a "Patriot Place" style retail development around it they'd likely get flack from McKinley Mall.

 

If you are going to build new elsewhere, where are the best locations?

 

Waterfront, south of downtown - Could be glorious on a nice day but pure hell late in the season when you get 60 mph gales off the lake.

 

Downtown, foot of Main - Thanks to Perry Pegula you have a burgeoning entertainment district with the FNC, Harborcenter, Canalside and the Cobblestone district, not to mention the casino. Plus the Metro runs there. New stadium could fit nicely, especially if Pegula emerges as the team owner.

 

Niagara Falls, USA - Billionaire Howard Millstien owns acres of land south of the Casino. More than enough for a stadium, hotel, parking, etc. It's closer to Toronto and rail lines from Toronto are close by. You have lots of hotels and attractions on the Canadian side and the idea of a Super Bowl there one day is plausible. Plus a stadium complex could be a catalyst for further development. But NF, USA is an urban tumor. A total crap hole. Can anything turn that dump around?

 

On or near UB Amherst campus - Here's a place no one is really talking about but if you think about it, it makes good sense. Lots of land on and near UB campus, close to I-90, 290 and 990. Metro can be extended there easily. (Which was the original plan.) A little closer to Rochester and Toronto. Plus you have a second football team as a potential tenant: the UB Bulls. Why not get twice the use from a new stadium?

 

PTR

 

Expand the metro. lol. Haven't heard that one in a while!

[RyanC883]

Any new "renovations" we are speaking of would likely be started in 2020 or so. They would likely be a bit of structural enhancements as well as complete rebuild of areas. It would basically use the same shell and build a "new" stadium with it. Look at soldier field. You would walk in opening day and it would look like a much different stadium.

 

I just wonder if they can do it during the course of an offseason. I wonder if they would have to play a season at the Carrier Dome or something.

 

I would love to see an NFL game in the Carrier Dome. Not necessarily a regular season, but a pre-season game. If they can fill that place with 50k crazy Bills fans, would be rocking.

 

The options are basically a) fix up RWS b) build new at the RWS site or c) build new elsewhere.

 

Fixing up RWS is the worst idea because there are issues with RWS that you can't fix: the narrow concourses. To fix that you are basically blowing up the whole thing and starting from scratch. And if you do that where do the Bills play for 1-2 years? UB stadium? (30K capacity) Rogers Centre? (Whole seasons in Toronto?? ) Carrier Dome in Syracuse?

 

There is enough room (likely in the lots across Abbott Rd.) to build a new stadium. One advantage is people are used to having the stadium there. They know the roads can handle the traffic etc. Neighbors are already used to having RWS there. (No NIMBY issues.) But it's not the sexiest location and if they wanted to build a "Patriot Place" style retail development around it they'd likely get flack from McKinley Mall.

 

If you are going to build new elsewhere, where are the best locations?

 

Waterfront, south of downtown - Could be glorious on a nice day but pure hell late in the season when you get 60 mph gales off the lake.

 

Downtown, foot of Main - Thanks to Perry Pegula you have a burgeoning entertainment district with the FNC, Harborcenter, Canalside and the Cobblestone district, not to mention the casino. Plus the Metro runs there. New stadium could fit nicely, especially if Pegula emerges as the team owner.

 

Niagara Falls, USA - Billionaire Howard Millstien owns acres of land south of the Casino. More than enough for a stadium, hotel, parking, etc. It's closer to Toronto and rail lines from Toronto are close by. You have lots of hotels and attractions on the Canadian side and the idea of a Super Bowl there one day is plausible. Plus a stadium complex could be a catalyst for further development. But NF, USA is an urban tumor. A total crap hole. Can anything turn that dump around?

 

On or near UB Amherst campus - Here's a place no one is really talking about but if you think about it, it makes good sense. Lots of land on and near UB campus, close to I-90, 290 and 990. Metro can be extended there easily. (Which was the original plan.) A little closer to Rochester and Toronto. Plus you have a second football team as a potential tenant: the UB Bulls. Why not get twice the use from a new stadium?

 

PTR

 

I like these ideas. Some sort of retractable roof by the water would be nice.

[Buftex]

UB could still be part of a downtown stadium, especially if they extend Metro to Amherst. I'm pretty warm to the downtown idea. As for tailgate space there is a lot of land to the east and south heading toward the First Ward neighborhood.

 

Yes, didn't mean to igore your UB option, just never gave it much thought. I like your point someone made about a stadium shared by the Bulls and Bills being more likely to garner state-wide support...but I also fear that a shared situation would be more likely to make the Bills expendable in the equation.

[Dean Cain]

Here's my take, the X-factor outside of new ownership is the City of Buffalo, and the University of Buffalo. Is it time to build a stadium in conjunction with the University & the Buffalo Bills? Getting UB into the AAC could vastly improve their program. In addition the stadium group is looking into the "logistics" and long-term viability. This has to include the regionalization of the franchise. Is OP the best place to get people in from Ontario & Rochester? Furthermore, is an indoor stadium with access to newly built major hotels and possible indoor field capable of hosting the Super Bowl & major college football bowl games, and possible final four, something the region could invest in?

[Mr. WEO]

Mr WEO, you might argue that the location of the stadium, in Orchard Park, kind of limits its' use to a degree.

 

Its use hasn't been limited for as long as it's existed, as far as I can tell. What other use is it not getting due to its location.

 

NF is an unqualified dump. Even the Kentucky Fried Chicken closed.

 

It needs a lot...A LOT of structural concrete work done IIRC. Concrete, treated or not, is not well suited for the endless WNY freeze/thaw cycle. The Ralph in its current state isn't unsafe, but requires constant (yearly) Band-Aid jobs to the concrete to keep it from becoming unsafe.

 

Has anyone assessed the structural life left on the Ralph? Or how much it would take to fix it more long term. The stuff I keep hearing in a new stadium has nothing to do with engineering--it's all about overvalued amenities.

[BillsFanM.D.]

No disrespect to Mr Wilson, though, it will always be Rich Stadium to me.

 

Couldn't agree more. I still say it and my boys have no idea what I'm talking about. We're just showing our age...

[Cap'nCrunch]

The Ralph has as many luxury boxes as it needs. Some go unused during games. The seating capacity originally was over 80,000, then was downsized for more boxes and potentially more sellouts, making owning season tickets more attractive to those who want to go to the game in person. Orchard Park has the infrastructure for handling the traffic of the games. Going into downtown for a game will be more difficult - traffic etc. - plus the lack of the tailgating atmosphere. Maybe the concourses are too narrow. Maybe the amenities are not as nice as the Dallas Cowboys have. But, the sightlines are great. The open air atmosphere of a Bills' game is also great. Plus, there is no mortgage at present to pay off and the renovations may answer all the concerns of The Ralph.

[oman128]

UB is doing a renovation of their stadium and draws about 20-30,000 for home games on a good day.

[PromoTheRobot]

Yes, didn't mean to igore your UB option, just never gave it much thought. I like your point someone made about a stadium shared by the Bulls and Bills being more likely to garner state-wide support...but I also fear that a shared situation would be more likely to make the Bills expendable in the equation.

 

That will never happen. The Bills are numero uno by a mile. UB football is a nice add-on but it will never replace the Bills unless the Bills left town, and even then it would never be the same.

[dwight in philly]

The Ralph has as many luxury boxes as it needs. Some go unused during games. The seating capacity originally was over 80,000, then was downsized for more boxes and potentially more sellouts, making owning season tickets more attractive to those who want to go to the game in person. Orchard Park has the infrastructure for handling the traffic of the games. Going into downtown for a game will be more difficult - traffic etc. - plus the lack of the tailgating atmosphere. Maybe the concourses are too narrow. Maybe the amenities are not as nice as the Dallas Cowboys have. But, the sightlines are great. The open air atmosphere of a Bills' game is also great. Plus, there is no mortgage at present to pay off and the renovations may answer all the concerns of The Ralph.

i will second your thoughts! well stated and i am in total agreement. right now they are putting resources and energy into the ralph , evaluate the situation in a few years.. count me in as a retro- fit guy..a downtown stadium is not the panacea some people think.. Edited April 2, 2014 by dwight in philly

[PromoTheRobot]

UB is doing a renovation of their stadium and draws about 20-30,000 for home games on a good day.

 

Correct. They are adding a luxury "East Club" to raise money for a new field house. They also want to rip out the running track, drop the field a few feet, and add another level of seating there. That's why I think it would be better to have UB share a stadium with the Bills. UB stadium is a miserable wind tunnel in November.

Edited April 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[SoulMan]

A downtown waterfront, movable roof stadium is the best option. It was the best option in 1973.