GA BILLS FAN Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yea. It was the 90 year old owner. The owner hired Tom Donahoe, then Marv Levy, then Buddy Nix. Those where all decisions Ralph made and its well documented that he was the one who made them. Brandon had nothing to do with those hires. If you want to ignore the facts to prove your point go ahead. Those are facts. When ralphs health started going downhill he put Brandon in charge and Brandon moved out Buddy and promoted Whaley. Its well documented that Wilson stuck his nose in the football side of things far more than he should have. And thats a big part of why this team has been bad so often through out its history. Every time Wilson had a strong personality running the show (Saban, Knox, Polian,) it always ended in problems and ultimately one of the few really competent people Wilson hired got fired. probably one of the biggest flaws of Ralph. You say it's "well documented"; can you share where ? Not saying you are wrong, just saying that in my experience, CEO's are in charge of decision making or at a minimum strongly influencing it.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) How else could he ascend to the highest position of authority on the team if he had no dealings other then marketing. This is not uncommon at all in sports. The president is there to run the business. The players, coaches, trainers (football ops) are a part of this as are sponsorships, ticket sales, community relations, pr, security, hr, business operations, stadium operations and marketing. Russ is over all of that now but just recently added football ops. He was the de facto GM for a period but deferred the football decisions to Modrak (college side) and John Guy (pro side). Brandon made a lot of changes to those other departments about 8 years ago when he put new leadership over those areas (primarily Wheat, Honan and Guelli). That end of the franchise has been successful. One of those guys has since gone on to become a CMO of an NBA team. Lots (most) of president's backgrounds come from the business world. The guy that I worked for came from Ventura Foods and he was widly regarded as one of the best. I think that Ted Black's background is in advertising. The point is that there have been a lot of people quick to throw stones without a real understanding of what said person is responsible for. You wouldn't blame Hackett for a poor defense would you? It's the same thing here. Now Brandon IS in charge of football ops so we will see what kind of job he does. If you want to hold the Byrd decision against him go for it, the Jauron hire not so much. Edited March 31, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
FireChan Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 This is not uncommon at all in sports. The president is there to run the business. The players, coaches, trainers (football ops) are a part of this as are sponsorships, ticket sales, community relations, pr, security, hr, business operations, stadium operations and marketing. Russ is over all of that now but just recently added football ops. He was the de facto GM for a period but deferred the football decisions to Modrak (college side) and John Guy (pro side). He made a lot of changes to those other departments about 8 years ago when he put new leadership over those areas (primarily Wheat, Honan and Guelli). That end of the franchise has been successful. One of those guys has since gone on to become a CMO of an NBA team. Lots (most) of president's backgrounds come from the business world. The guy that I worked for came from Ventura Foods and he was widly regarded as one of the best. I think that Ted Black's background is in advertising. The point is that there have been a lot of people quick to throw stones without a real understanding of what said person is responsible for. You wouldn't blame Hackett for a poor defense would you? It's the same thing here. Now Brandon IS in charge of football ops so we will see what kind of job he does. You mean CFO's and Presidents in the NFL aren't former coaches and players? Woah.
DOGNESS Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) You say it's "well documented"; can you share where ? Not saying you are wrong, just saying that in my experience, CEO's are in charge of decision making or at a minimum strongly influencing it. Its been reported repeatedly in the local press for the past three decades. Im assuming you dont live in the area. WGR just had a television tribute to Wilson and it the very issue was heavily discussed. Tom Donahoe was Ralphs decision. Marv Levy was Ralphs decision. Buddy Nix was Ralphs decision. Ive heard that time and time again. From local reporters. other NFL executives, and former players. If you want me to produce a detailed list on the times and dates I heard it I cant help you. But Ralph has always had a reputation for being a somewhat meddlesome owner. One thing I can tell you with certainty is Ive never, ever, heard anyone give any credit at all in any way shape or form to Russ Brandon for any of those hires. Not once. Ralph stuck his nose stuck pretty deep into the operation of the team. To much in my opinion because he wasn't very good at it.Not to be argumentative but Id love to see the evidence you have that contradicts this. Brandon's title is just that, a title. It doesnt mean Wilson didnt have the final say. Tell me what evidence, other than brandons title, that tells you he decided to hire donahoe, levy, and nix. Again Im not trying to be a jerk here but it sounds like your assuming these things. Im not assuming anything. Im going on whats been reported over the years. if you want to dismiss that, fine. I certainly dont see any evidence that suggests anything else. Edited March 31, 2014 by DOGNESS
DOGNESS Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 You mean CFO's and Presidents in the NFL aren't former coaches and players? Woah. We just love to twist things around here dont we...
3rdand12 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I think Russ is alright . Dont have any stats or facts. just how i feel. The team is beginning to look competent , and focused. I have said it before this is a critical season in so many ways . Also so many folks look at the last 14 years or so. Thats just not fair. How about last year and this year as our sample ? Go Brandon !
GA BILLS FAN Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Its been reported repeatedly in the local press for the past three decades. Im assuming you dont live in the area. WGR just had a television tribute to Wilson and it the very issue was heavily discussed. Tom Donahoe was Ralphs decision. Marv Levy was Ralphs decision. Buddy Nix was Ralphs decision. Ive heard that time and time again. From local reporters. other NFL executives, and former players. If you want me to produce a detailed list on the times and dates I heard it I cant help you. But Ralph has always had a reputation for being a somewhat meddlesome owner. One thing I can tell you with certainty is Ive never, ever, heard anyone give any credit at all in any way shape or form to Russ Brandon for any of those hires. Not once. Ralph stuck his nose stuck pretty deep into the operation of the team. To much in my opinion because he wasn't very good at it. Not to be argumentative but Id love to see the evidence you have that contradicts this. Brandon's title is just that, a title. It doesnt mean Wilson didnt have the final say. Tell me what evidence, other than brandons title, that tells you he decided to hire donahoe, levy, and nix. Again Im not trying to be a jerk here but it sounds like your assuming these things. Im not assuming anything. Im going on whats been reported over the years. if you want to dismiss that, fine. I certainly dont see any evidence that suggests anything else. I've never worked for the Bills in any capacity and don't know any of the principals personally, so I am assuming. At a minimum, a CEO exerts great influence over the owner, if not, it says a lot about that CEO's capabilities and judgment. You paint a picture of certainty that I suspect is simply your assumptions of the situation. I guess the next we'll here is that Ralph under hospice care the past several months was still calling the shots and we shouldn't blame Brandon if the Marrone/Whaley hire doesn't work out, and that Ralph let Byrd walk and it was Ralph that drafted Manuel. This reminds me of an SNL skit about Ronald Regan, when, in his second term, people suspected he was "out of touch" and not in control, maybe Ralph was more like the Reagan portrayed in this skit !! -- if nothing else, enjoy a laugh https://screen.yahoo.com/president-reagan-mastermind-000000075.html
birdog1960 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Its been reported repeatedly in the local press for the past three decades. Im assuming you dont live in the area. WGR just had a television tribute to Wilson and it the very issue was heavily discussed. Tom Donahoe was Ralphs decision. Marv Levy was Ralphs decision. Buddy Nix was Ralphs decision. Ive heard that time and time again. From local reporters. other NFL executives, and former players. If you want me to produce a detailed list on the times and dates I heard it I cant help you. But Ralph has always had a reputation for being a somewhat meddlesome owner. One thing I can tell you with certainty is Ive never, ever, heard anyone give any credit at all in any way shape or form to Russ Brandon for any of those hires. Not once. Ralph stuck his nose stuck pretty deep into the operation of the team. To much in my opinion because he wasn't very good at it. Not to be argumentative but Id love to see the evidence you have that contradicts this. Brandon's title is just that, a title. It doesnt mean Wilson didnt have the final say. Tell me what evidence, other than brandons title, that tells you he decided to hire donahoe, levy, and nix. Again Im not trying to be a jerk here but it sounds like your assuming these things. Im not assuming anything. Im going on whats been reported over the years. if you want to dismiss that, fine. I certainly dont see any evidence that suggests anything else. as a keen and avid bills observer for many years, i believe your assertions are correct. maybe someday, a tell all will come out documenting exactly what you assert.. but i don't see brandon writing it. he's a company guy. always was and always will be. and that's exactly why his leadership doesn't fill me with confidence. he's part of the long lived culture of losing in the organization. empowering him further empowers that culture. i think it's important to separate the goals of keeping the bills in buffalo and making the bills a winner. will brandon help keep the bills in buffalo? maybe but i think it's likely far beyond him. will he be integral in making them a winner? i don't think so. can both goals be attained simultaneously? i hope so but i don't see brandon being the one accomplishing it.
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I am not sure that I follow the analogy? In the old days Russ (the kid) would have to call Littman (mom) and say can I have another dollar? Now Russ is mom. So, you think Russ is not only the President of the Bills but has unlimited access and authority over Ralph's estate. Color me dubious. (Nice try trying to slip around any inconvenient constraints on the hypothetical though.) The point is the Littmann card is being overplayed. "They used to have to run it by Littmann" means what exactly? Ralph was the team President up until a little over a year ago and obviously he's going to involve his #1 right-hand man and money manager in the money decisions. I suspect Russ Brandon also involves the money guy in his money decisions. Why wouldn't he? Is he nuts?
Kirby Jackson Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 So, you think Russ is not only the President of the Bills but has unlimited access and authority over Ralph's estate. Color me dubious. (Nice try trying to slip around any inconvenient constraints on the hypothetical though.) The point is the Littmann card is being overplayed. "They used to have to run it by Littmann" means what exactly? Ralph was the team President up until a little over a year ago and obviously he's going to involve his #1 right-hand man and money manager in the money decisions. I suspect Russ Brandon also involves the money guy in his money decisions. Why wouldn't he? Is he nuts? No, just trying to clarify what the changes meant to the Bills organization. He has full authority over anything Bills related now. He does not need approval to spend. Obviously, Russ can feel free to involve whoever he wants in the decision making process but ultimately his answer is final. That did not used to be the case. Ralph had not been really involved at all in over a decade. The only time that he was really involved was with major decisions. Littman had operated in the Ralph role for quite a while. The titles are what they are. Marv Levy was the GM and if you think that he was calling shots on the football ops side I've got a bridge to sell you. The point is that regardless of whose title is what that is how the organization has functioned.
thewildrabbit Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 To those that think this franchise is going to suddenly change its course because the owner has passed, they need to think again. Brandon still has 100% obligation to the Wilson family and will steer the ship on the exact same course it has been on over the past decade. Its profits first, and keep the ship afloat. Should the team manage to win some games along the way...that's fine. Brandon's job as I see it is to find ways to keep the stadium filled, and keep everything in order the same as its always been. In my view the only way this franchise really changes to any degree is when new ownership takes control. With that, I'm hoping new ownership sweeps the losing culture out, from the ball boys to the very top.
May Day 10 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 To those that think this franchise is going to suddenly change its course because the owner has passed, they need to think again. Brandon still has 100% obligation to the Wilson family and will steer the ship on the exact same course it has been on over the past decade. Its profits first, and keep the ship afloat. Should the team manage to win some games along the way...that's fine. Brandon's job as I see it is to find ways to keep the stadium filled, and keep everything in order the same as its always been. In my view the only way this franchise really changes to any degree is when new ownership takes control. With that, I'm hoping new ownership sweeps the losing culture out, from the ball boys to the very top. x1000
thebandit27 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 x1000 Unfortunately, this take completely ignores the very obvious changes that took place once Russ was promoted to CEO, including--but not limited to--the following: - Total revamping of the scouting department - Placement of a new GM - Hiring of a new head coach - Beefing up of the coaching staff in general to include special assistants, etc. - Total change in draft philosophy, from actually focusing on the most important position in the game to drafting players that aren't necessarily choir boys - etc.
May Day 10 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Unfortunately, this take completely ignores the very obvious changes that took place once Russ was promoted to CEO, including--but not limited to--the following: - Total revamping of the scouting department - Placement of a new GM - Hiring of a new head coach - Beefing up of the coaching staff in general to include special assistants, etc. - Total change in draft philosophy, from actually focusing on the most important position in the game to drafting players that aren't necessarily choir boys - etc. We will see. As it stands, we have a team who has finished in last place for 6 seasons in a row... in a division that includes both the Lolphins and the Jets. They managed last place again in 2013. If they truly turn the corner this season or next (which a sale likely wouldnt come before Summer of '15), then yeah, some continuity could be deserved.
thebandit27 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 We will see. As it stands, we have a team who has finished in last place for 6 seasons in a row... in a division that includes both the Lolphins and the Jets. They managed last place again in 2013. If they truly turn the corner this season or next (which a sale likely wouldnt come before Summer of '15), then yeah, some continuity could be deserved. Absolutely...time will tell as to whether or not the changes will have the desired affect...my only beef is with the idea that nothing involving the running of the franchise has changed recently...it most definitely has; we're just not sure if these changes will get the job done. I think we'll get a pretty good idea this season.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) Absolutely...time will tell as to whether or not the changes will have the desired affect...my only beef is with the idea that nothing involving the running of the franchise has changed recently...it most definitely has; we're just not sure if these changes will get the job done. I think we'll get a pretty good idea this season. Good point Bandit. The point is that the jury is out. In terms of sweeping FO changes with an ownership transfer it is going to depend on who buys the team. If a group led by Kelly (which seems less likely at this point) were to purchase the team there is a very good chance that the management team would remain. These are people that he has worked with for years and has a relationship with. If Pegula for example were to buy the team it would likely be people that he is comfortable with. It is possible that someone like Ted Black would be the president of both teams. That is how they are running things down here in NOLA. The Saints and Pelicans have the same senior management teams. Edited April 1, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
May Day 10 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I also think there needs to be a message sent to the NFLPA and agents out there that the Bills are back in business and are going to be a place players want to be/go/stay. Like has been said, these guys still have time to "proove themselves".
BillsBytheBay Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I think most if the Russ hate came when we didn't really know the extent of his involvement. Now that his finger print on the franchise is becoming more apparent, I feel more fans will appreciate his work.
GA BILLS FAN Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 There is no way Brandon will survive an ownership change. I think he even realizes that. It's hard for successful executives to survive a new ownership group, let alone one with a dubious track record.
thewildrabbit Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I think most if the Russ hate came when we didn't really know the extent of his involvement. Now that his finger print on the franchise is becoming more apparent, I feel more fans will appreciate his work. Nothing has really changed, the old thinking that permeates this franchise still hasn't changed. I don't hate the man, as I see things he is just doing what Mr Wilson asked of him, his job. Now he is going to be doing the same things for the Wilson family. My thinking is that while Brandon might be a good guy, and the type that others really like...that doesn't win many football games, as Chan Gailey found out. What wins championships is people with true football acumen, along with the knowledge of what it encompasses to build a championship team. All this hodgepodge hiring of "maybe" this guy has it, or perhaps this guy has been around the league long enough, simply isn't getting it done. I could wait until after the draft to start my seasonal pissing into the wind against the perennial optimists. However, with that FA Williams signing I just don't see anything changing much, even with the draft. Lots of people see this team as being "close". I don't, not on offense.
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