C.Biscuit97 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 What does Tebow have to do with Manziel? Their playing style and skills are completely different. They're both QBs who played in gimmicky systems, with a ton of talent around them, put up monster stats in the SEC using hteir legs a lot, won Heismans, aren't the protypical NFL size, and are both going to be 1st round picks. you're right. They have nothing in common.
Mr. WEO Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 They're both QBs who played in gimmicky systems, with a ton of talent around them, put up monster stats in the SEC using hteir legs a lot, won Heismans, aren't the protypical NFL size, and are both going to be 1st round picks. you're right. They have nothing in common. I'll repeat it: their styles are nothing alike, nor are their skills. You've seen them both play, so you must know specifically what I am talking about.
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I'll repeat it: their styles are nothing alike, nor are their skills. You've seen them both play, so you must know specifically what I am talking about. There are similarities though. But Manziel is a better natural thrower but neither are great pocket passers.
FireChan Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Bust implies out of the league before 2nd contract comes around. Tebow is the definition of a bust. Agree to disagree with you FC. Then there are degrees of bust, right? Because guys like Tebow and Young weren't as busty as Leaf, Russel, Leinhert. All out of the league, but at least the former got to the playoffs. They both pray heavily Of course one to an alter and one to a porcelain bowl... Details I've never seen a definition of a bust get so specific. But generally you expect your first round draft pick QB to start at some point and be a long term franchise fixture. Anything less is arguably a bust. Even when he's #28? Do you know how many QB's in the NFL have won a playoff game? Vs the number who haven't?
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I'll repeat it: their styles are nothing alike, nor are their skills. You've seen them both play, so you must know specifically what I am talking about. He wasn't saying their playing styles or skills were similar though was he? You said what does one have to do with the other and he provided a list of comparables. Nowhere on that list did he say "playing style". The only thing near to a reference about style or skills was saying they both used their legs a lot.
Mr. WEO Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 He wasn't saying their playing styles or skills were similar though was he? You said what does one have to do with the other and he provided a list of comparables. Nowhere on that list did he say "playing style". The only thing near to a reference about style or skills was saying they both used their legs a lot. Well, the discussion here is about their worthiness as NFL QBs. Regardless of their performances in college, their games are totally different, a fact which makes Manziel, by most accounts, a better pro prospect. So listing only their college accolades and that they "used their legs a lot" ignores the vast differences in their talents and therefore why they have (had) different prospects as pros. Why not compare him with Cam Newton instead? That's who's records JM broke... That's why I asked....
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Well, the discussion here is about their worthiness as NFL QBs. Regardless of their performances in college, their games are totally different, a fact which makes Manziel, by most accounts, a better pro prospect. So listing only their college accolades and that they "used their legs a lot" ignores the vast differences in their talents and therefore why they have (had) different prospects as pros. Why not compare him with Cam Newton instead? That's who's records JM broke... That's why I asked.... IMO, Manziel is closer to Tebow than Newton. Newton is 6'5" and has a cannon. There is zero comparison between the two. Much like Tebow and Vick, teams will keep Manziel in the pocket and force him to beat them throwing from there. Personally, I don't think he can but we'll see.
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I think Manziel can throw from the pocket much better than Tebow... it's not so much his throwing from the pocket that concerns me about him as a pro prospect more that he seems to miss reads from the pocket. I don't know that he sees the field very well from there and that's why he is so anxious so often to escape the pocket. I think escaping the pocket is what Manziel seeks to do as soon as his 1st guy isn't there and in the NFL I don't think he will be able to scramble and improvise and make magic happen to anywhere near the same extent. The pass rushers are quicker and stronger and will hit him in the backfield and the defensive backs are better when he throws those loopy ducks looking for his big target (Mike Evans type).
Mr. WEO Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 IMO, Manziel is closer to Tebow than Newton. Newton is 6'5" and has a cannon. There is zero comparison between the two. Much like Tebow and Vick, teams will keep Manziel in the pocket and force him to beat them throwing from there. Personally, I don't think he can but we'll see. I figured that's where you would go. So Manziel is more like Tebow, who's combine overview commented on his "strong arm"--and he is 6'3", 236? If it boils down to "Manziel is too short", I'll bow out. No changing that old nugget. I think Manziel can throw from the pocket much better than Tebow... it's not so much his throwing from the pocket that concerns me about him as a pro prospect more that he seems to miss reads from the pocket. I don't know that he sees the field very well from there and that's why he is so anxious so often to escape the pocket. I think escaping the pocket is what Manziel seeks to do as soon as his 1st guy isn't there and in the NFL I don't think he will be able to scramble and improvise and make magic happen to anywhere near the same extent. The pass rushers are quicker and stronger and will hit him in the backfield and the defensive backs are better when he throws those loopy ducks looking for his big target (Mike Evans type). These things were said about our current first round draft pick (throws mostly from shotgun, forces throws, deep ball inaccuracy, happy feet under pressure, spins to avoid the rush, gives opponents too many chances for turnovers...). They drafted him anyway--and he struggled in all of those ways.
GunnerBill Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I personally think Manziel looks to escape the pocket quicker than EJ but regardless...
Mr. WEO Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I personally think Manziel looks to escape the pocket quicker than EJ but regardless... I agree 100%.
Section242 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 We see the plays Manziel makes when running around and that's what sticks in the mind of most fans. He had the highest completion percentage inside the pocket of any QB from an AQ BCS school. Manziel can't throw from the pocket just like every offensive lineman plays "nasty." It's just fans convincing themselves a reason not to draft a guy. The Bills don't seem to be in the market for a 1st rd QB in the draft this year, at least. They spent the 16th pick on Manuel last year who I think is an inferior prospect to Manziel.
FireChan Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 We see the plays Manziel makes when running around and that's what sticks in the mind of most fans. He had the highest completion percentage inside the pocket of any QB from an AQ BCS school. Manziel can't throw from the pocket just like every offensive lineman plays "nasty." It's just fans convincing themselves a reason not to draft a guy. The Bills don't seem to be in the market for a 1st rd QB in the draft this year, at least. They spent the 16th pick on Manuel last year who I think is an inferior prospect to Manziel. Agreed. Further more, how many times this year did Russell Wilson make some Johnny Football plays by scambling? Hell, he'd run 10 yards backwards and circle around to make a throw. You can argue Wilson is a more complete passer, but I doubt he's hands and feet better than Johnny in the pocket. Wilson benefits mostly from a running game that keeps the defenses from containing him every play.
Section242 Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Agreed. Further more, how many times this year did Russell Wilson make some Johnny Football plays by scambling? Hell, he'd run 10 yards backwards and circle around to make a throw. You can argue Wilson is a more complete passer, but I doubt he's hands and feet better than Johnny in the pocket. Wilson benefits mostly from a running game that keeps the defenses from containing him every play. Exactly the highlights are Manziel running around and throwing it to Evans. Still that's a small portion of what actually happened last season for him. The one thing I disagree on his being around a ton of talent. Evans is a stud but the 2nd most talented WR they had was Seals-Jones and he was out most of the year. One thing that I find interesting is Joeckel was top talent last year at OT, Matthews this year, Ogebehui next year but they get no benefit from system while Manziel does.
Maury Ballstein Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Manziel signs with Nike. Big bucks and no whammy's
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Glad to see FC getting figured out finally, he has admitted in the shoutbox that he loves trolling TBD. I have a huge Tebower but he was a pretty bad pick when all is said and done. That 2011 season was pretty fun to watch though, I'll never forget leaving Qualcomm while the Bills were getting their asses kicked, hopping on the trolley and putting the end of a Broncos game on my phone. Tebow was working his magic and the entire trolley car was discussing the magic that Tebow was performing. Of course the Broncos miracled their way to a win that day.
FireChan Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Glad to see FC getting figured out finally, he has admitted in the shoutbox that he loves trolling TBD. I have a huge Tebower but he was a pretty bad pick when all is said and done. That 2011 season was pretty fun to watch though, I'll never forget leaving Qualcomm while the Bills were getting their asses kicked, hopping on the trolley and putting the end of a Broncos game on my phone. Tebow was working his magic and the entire trolley car was discussing the magic that Tebow was performing. Of course the Broncos miracled their way to a win that day. Love trolling? Never said that in my life. Just because I don't think Tebow was a classic bust and I like Johnny Football doesn't make me a troll. I do find it funny how appalled people get when I have opinions that differ. Look at the heads that exploded when I praised Tebow. "You just lost all your credibility!" You can't tell me that there's no humor there. Edited March 7, 2014 by FireChan
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Love trolling? Never said that in my life. Just because I don't think Tebow was a classic bust and I like Johnny Football doesn't make me a troll. I do find it funny how appalled people get when I have opinions that differ. Look at the heads that exploded when I praised Tebow. "You just lost all your credibility!" You can't tell me that there's no humor there. @ FireChan : (20 October 2013 - 07:22 PM)@NDBUFFCUSEFAN you should see what I have in the pipelines for Tuesday. I'm thinking a topic titled "we have the shortest memories" where I make all these awful comparisons to the 2011 season and declare the season a bust So that wasn't trolling?
FireChan Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 @ FireChan : (20 October 2013 - 07:22 PM)@NDBUFFCUSEFAN you should see what I have in the pipelines for Tuesday. I'm thinking a topic titled "we have the shortest memories" where I make all these awful comparisons to the 2011 season and declare the season a bust So that wasn't trolling? Was it not true? The comparisons I was going to make was the turnover stat. When the 2 unforced turnovers a game dried up, did the season not go down the tubes? Do I embellish? Sure. Is declaring the season a bust necessary when I could just say "maybe we should be worried?" Maybe not. But it facilitates conversation and debate, which is, in my opinion, much more interesting to read than blind agreement or dismissal. You're taking my quotes out of context because that was surrounded by explanations directed at K-9 and yourself. I won't disagree that sometimes the things I say are incendiary. And sometimes they are over-the-top. But when the conversation gets going, I take a more moderate approach to the topic. You know very well that I am capable of conversing intelligently about a variety of topics. But sometimes you need something substantial not unlike a wild hook that opens a good book. Besides, I didn't even make that hypothetical topic. So there's that.
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 You said that you enjoyed trolling in that SB convo but I didn't have the wherewithal to copy it as it happened. I usually pass over your posts now since you troll more than post real things so your real posts fade into oblivion.
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