FireChan Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 I think the definition of a blackout was't being debated... It was being debated if the situation is black and white. Who cares how "close" we were to selling out if we don't? Who cares if we have a big stadium if the games aren't on TV? Attendance and number of tickets sold dont mean much if it isn't 100%.
boyst Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 A few points to put in to discussion for those just browsing and keeping up with the conversation: Erie County: Buffalo, Orchard Park. Niagara County is Niagara Falls. It seems the group is more centrally focused with Erie County reps while also holding a separate panel to work on this issue. However, the franchises group includes the NF Mayor. --- Sellouts are a liberal term being misused. Sellouts can simply mean that a franchise has purchased the remainder of tickets, local companies/organizations have been tapped to buy the rest at a reduced cost, or other loops made to sell out. A prospective buyer will not care about "sellouts" he will care about how much the bottom dollar is made from stadium revenue which is directly tied to tickets sold, not sellouts or fake sellouts. Luxury boxes and season tickets are where its at. --- Buffalo is a top 3 market when looking at greater regional appeal. When the internet first came out I remember there were diagramming fans. 20-25 years ago New England was NYJets, Washington Redskins, Phili Eagles and NY Giants territory. There was small blip in greater Boston for the 'local' team. At that time parts of Michigan were charted as Bills interested. Also, seldom do these fan maps and numbers include the Canadian fan base. If we being to win we will grow our fans.
sodbuster Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Where woul d he have moved it to? And, exactly, when? Who knows? Ask Polian. I was kind of being sarcastic. I am of the opinion that there are more realistic and logical moves in the NFL than Buffalo going anywhere, especially to LA.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 It was being debated if the situation is black and white. Who cares how "close" we were to selling out if we don't? Who cares if we have a big stadium if the games aren't on TV? Attendance and number of tickets sold dont mean much if it isn't 100%. This is the baseline measure of success or failure in the NFL. The bottom line is that your stadium needs to be full regardless of its size or your team's record. It may not be fair but it is a simple reality. Every new owner will know the maximum revenue potential of that stadium. They will also know the actual revenue generated. You want those numbers to be as close as possible. If the stadium can generate $10M a game and is actually only generating $9M -that's a problem. We all see the empty red seats which is the equivalent of probably 3 lower sideline seats or 4 seats upstairs for each empty club seat. In addition, a portion of the club revenue (license fee) is not shared like the ticket price. If the Bills are off on average $1M per game than it is viewed as a -$10M on the season, not a +$90M, to a new owner. The expectation in the league is 100% of potential revenue on game days. So 91% may seem okay but in reality it isn't good enough (especially with limited seat licenses and some of the lowest priced tickets in the league).
nucci Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 It was being debated if the situation is black and white. Who cares how "close" we were to selling out if we don't? Who cares if we have a big stadium if the games aren't on TV? Attendance and number of tickets sold dont mean much if it isn't 100%. part of what I was trying to say was a game can be sold out and still be blacked out locally.
reddogblitz Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Where woul d he have moved it to? And, exactly, when? It's pretty easy to move a team to greener pastures if one so desires. All you really have to do is tell the local yokels that you need a new stadium. If they don't jump in line to build one that you like, you can announce that you are thinking of moving and cities will line up with plans and funding to build a new stadium for you. There are a lot of cities that want an NFL team and, I'm just pulling city names out of a hat, but San Antonio, Portland OR, Oklahoma City, Sacramento come to mind. That's how the SuperSonics lost out. City said no new stadium, so they packed up and left. Seahawks also tried a similar move and even did start moving stuff to LA, but then Seattle decided to build Qwest Field or whatever it's called now. Seattle tried to woo the Sacramento Kings with a new stadium, but Sacramento ponied up a new stadium so they stayed. If Ralph had wanted to cash in and move the team I'm pretty sure he could have. Edited March 27, 2014 by reddogblitz
BillnutinHouston Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 The Bills bring more fans to the stadium than the Bears, yet Soldier field is sold out all the time. Same for Indy, Detroit, Minny, Cincy, Arizona---all stadiums with fewer seats, all at 96% capacity or better. The Bills were about 91% full for the season last year--despite yet another 6-10 season. That's an amazing level of fan support. Your argument is poor. Also, you want more sell-outs, take away a few thousand seats. Heck, this is easy. My argument is poor? I was stating (not arguing) that the NFL does in fact consider fan support when looking at franchise relocation. Are you disputing that fact? And where in my post did I ever mention sellouts? I know it's been a tough week for all of us but at least try to comprehend a post before jumping in to argue with aspects of it that don't exist.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 part of what I was trying to say was a game can be sold out and still be blacked out locally. If it sells out after Thursday afternoon or in all likelihood Friday (once they get an extension). If the game is close enough to sell out someone will guarentee it prior to the blackout. They do not actually buy the remaining tickets at that point, they continue to sell them up until the last possible minute and then whoever it is buys the remainder. I think that in the NFL they can buy them at a discount which is virtually the % of gate that goes to the players. I am not positive about that part.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) sometimes the blackout thing is ludicrous throwing out some figures Sold out at the Ralph is 74,000, Jax is 73,000 Miami 76,000 average attendance Ralph 66,300 89% of capacity Jacks 59,900 82% of capacity Miami 64,300 84.6% of capacity Which team has the worst attendance - % wise it's not Buffalo Edited March 27, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever
nucci Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 If it sells out after Thursday afternoon or in all likelihood Friday (once they get an extension). If the game is close enough to sell out someone will guarentee it prior to the blackout. They do not actually buy the remaining tickets at that point, they continue to sell them up until the last possible minute and then whoever it is buys the remainder. I think that in the NFL they can buy them at a discount which is virtually the % of gate that goes to the players. I am not positive about that part. i understand. I was just giving hypotheticals based on the rules in place.
FireChan Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 This is the baseline measure of success or failure in the NFL. The bottom line is that your stadium needs to be full regardless of its size or your team's record. It may not be fair but it is a simple reality. Every new owner will know the maximum revenue potential of that stadium. They will also know the actual revenue generated. You want those numbers to be as close as possible. If the stadium can generate $10M a game and is actually only generating $9M -that's a problem. We all see the empty red seats which is the equivalent of probably 3 lower sideline seats or 4 seats upstairs for each empty club seat. In addition, a portion of the club revenue (license fee) is not shared like the ticket price. If the Bills are off on average $1M per game than it is viewed as a -$10M on the season, not a +$90M, to a new owner. The expectation in the league is 100% of potential revenue on game days. So 91% may seem okay but in reality it isn't good enough (especially with limited seat licenses and some of the lowest priced tickets in the league). Yep.
Mr. WEO Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 This is the baseline measure of success or failure in the NFL. The bottom line is that your stadium needs to be full regardless of its size or your team's record. It may not be fair but it is a simple reality. Every new owner will know the maximum revenue potential of that stadium. They will also know the actual revenue generated. You want those numbers to be as close as possible. If the stadium can generate $10M a game and is actually only generating $9M -that's a problem. We all see the empty red seats which is the equivalent of probably 3 lower sideline seats or 4 seats upstairs for each empty club seat. In addition, a portion of the club revenue (license fee) is not shared like the ticket price. If the Bills are off on average $1M per game than it is viewed as a -$10M on the season, not a +$90M, to a new owner. The expectation in the league is 100% of potential revenue on game days. So 91% may seem okay but in reality it isn't good enough (especially with limited seat licenses and some of the lowest priced tickets in the league). That one's easy--create a higher demand and you be able to charge more per ticket. Also, 91% full house is a sure thing in Buffalo--even with a bad team. Tell me where you think the next owner is going to move Marrone et al and guaranteed gets more paid attnedance every week, year after year, no matter how bad the team is. It's pretty easy to move a team to greener pastures if one so desires. All you really have to do is tell the local yokels that you need a new stadium. If they don't jump in line to build one that you like, you can announce that you are thinking of moving and cities will line up with plans and funding to build a new stadium for you. There are a lot of cities that want an NFL team and, I'm just pulling city names out of a hat, but San Antonio, Portland OR, Oklahoma City, Sacramento come to mind. That's how the SuperSonics lost out. City said no new stadium, so they packed up and left. Seahawks also tried a similar move and even did start moving stuff to LA, but then Seattle decided to build Qwest Field or whatever it's called now. Seattle tried to woo the Sacramento Kings with a new stadium, but Sacramento ponied up a new stadium so they stayed. If Ralph had wanted to cash in and move the team I'm pretty sure he could have. Oh yeah? And which stadium would any team move to in those cities? Can you pull out a brand new NFL stadium inn any of those towns? LA still doesn't have a team because there is no stadium. Based on Neilson DMA data, Oklahoma City and San Antonio have smaller TV markets than Milwaukee. Sacramento is smaller than Cleveland. No one is going to take a 1.5 -2 billion dollar gamble moving a team to one of these places. My argument is poor? I was stating (not arguing) that the NFL does in fact consider fan support when looking at franchise relocation. Are you disputing that fact? And where in my post did I ever mention sellouts? I know it's been a tough week for all of us but at least try to comprehend a post before jumping in to argue with aspects of it that don't exist. Well then, what did you mean when you asked "how will Bills fans respond to this"?
reddogblitz Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Oh yeah? And which stadium would any team move to in those cities? Can you pull out a brand new NFL stadium inn any of those towns? LA still doesn't have a team because there is no stadium. Actually the greatest example of what I'm talking about is the Houston Oilers moving to Tennessee. Nashville didn't have a stadium either. So they played in Memphis for 2 years while the stadium was being built. San Antonio already has a stadium an NFL team could play in while a new one was being built. OKC could play in Nornam until a stadium was built. Minnesota was threatening to move too until the new stadium was promised to be built.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 That one's easy--create a higher demand and you be able to charge more per ticket. Also, 91% full house is a sure thing in Buffalo--even with a bad team. Tell me where you think the next owner is going to move Marrone et al and guaranteed gets more paid attnedance every week, year after year, no matter how bad the team is. There are lots of markets that will support an NFL team at that level. LA and Toronto would be full on corporate support alone. My guess is that Portland or San Antonio would as well. Depending on team record is not only an unsustainable business plan but not appealing at all to a new owner. The Bills have gotten good support for their record but their are lots of teams in lots of sports that are full regardless of team performance. Utah Jazz, Portland Trailblazers, Calgary Flames and even the Sabres have consistent support. If you are looking only at the NFL how about the Titans or Chiefs as examples of teams that pack them in regardless of record. I tried to stay away from the obvious GB, Pittsburgh, etc...
oman128 Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Lots of fan's may have forgotten that the Ralph has already been downsized by seven thousand seats as used to be over 80000 seats.
metzelaars_lives Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Lots of fan's may have forgotten that the Ralph has already been downsized by seven thousand seats as used to be over 80000 seats. Lots of fan's may have forgotten that the Ralph has already been downsized by seven thousand seats as used to be over 80000 seats. OK we got it dude. It's pretty easy to move a team to greener pastures if one so desires. All you really have to do is tell the local yokels that you need a new stadium. If they don't jump in line to build one that you like, you can announce that you are thinking of moving and cities will line up with plans and funding to build a new stadium for you. There are a lot of cities that want an NFL team and, I'm just pulling city names out of a hat, but San Antonio, Portland OR, Oklahoma City, Sacramento come to mind. That's how the SuperSonics lost out. City said no new stadium, so they packed up and left. Seahawks also tried a similar move and even did start moving stuff to LA, but then Seattle decided to build Qwest Field or whatever it's called now. Seattle tried to woo the Sacramento Kings with a new stadium, but Sacramento ponied up a new stadium so they stayed. If Ralph had wanted to cash in and move the team I'm pretty sure he could have. I think this is where I see a reason for optimism. Besides Los Angeles, which looks likes it's going to get a team regardless, is there a better football market in North America than Buffalo that doesn't already have a team? Sacramento? Umm, no. Portland? No indication whatsoever that Portland is a football town and they are very close to Seattle. OKC, San Antonio? Bigger markets than Buffalo but would they be better football markets than Buffalo? The Bills are not at the bottom of the league in terms of revenue generated each year. It would be a huge gamble by a prospective owner to think that any of these cities would be a better long-term income generator than Buffalo. This thread should be one post long: build new stadium, keep team. Don't build new stadium, may very well lose team but not even necessarily. Edited March 27, 2014 by metzelaars_lives
Buftex Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Is it me, or doesn't it seem kinda coincidental that this article pops up on the front page of NFL.COM, just two days after Ralph Wilson passes away? If it was another website, I might not be as suspicious to me. An article about Eddie DeBartolo Jr wanting back in the NFL, as an owner. http://www.nfl.com/n...right-situation Edited March 27, 2014 by Buftex
plenzmd1 Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) OK we got it dude. I think this is where I see a reason for optimism. Besides Los Angeles, which looks likes it's going to get a team regardless, is there a better football market in North America than Buffalo that doesn't already have a team? Sacramento? Umm, no. Portland? No indication whatsoever that Portland is a football town and they are very close to Seattle. OKC, San Antonio? Bigger markets than Buffalo but would they be better football markets than Buffalo? The Bills are not at the bottom of the league in terms of revenue generated each year. It would be a gamble by a prospective owner to think that any of these cities would be a better long-term income generator than Buffalo. This thread should be one post long: build new stadium, keep team. Don't build new stadium, may very well lose team but not even necessarily. i do not agree 100%. I think major renovations at the Ralph , paid with Taxpayer money, can generate sufficient revenue for the team to stay. I think Buffalo may need to think differently about its approach however. Similar to the fund they are talking about, i would like to see the Bills try to monetize the HUGE ex pat following of the Bills. Maybe that is a different thread, but i am sure between all us chuckleheads on this forum we could generate a couple of ideas to send the Bills that could somehow harness that huge untapped market. Just thinking of that, i have to assume sales of officially licensed Bills gear is pretty high ..portion of.that i would think goes away with a new team. I think ex Buffalonians buy more gear than any fanbase outside of the Steelers. Is it me, or doesn't it seem kinda coincidental that this article pops up on the front page of NFL.COM, just two days after Ralph Wilson passes away? If it was another website, I might not be as suspicious to me. An article about Eddie DeBartolo Jr wanting back in the NFL, as an owner. http://www.nfl.com/n...right-situation Buf, not so sure I would mind him as an owner. If i am not mistaken, he is from Youngstown and still is quite devoted to that city. And that place makes Buffalo look like like economic powerhouse...maybe he would have a softspot for a hard working city needing some good news and championships! Edited March 27, 2014 by plenzmd1
May Day 10 Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) . If you are looking only at the NFL how about the Titans or Chiefs as examples of teams that pack them in regardless of record. I tried to stay away from the obvious GB, Pittsburgh, etc... 2012 16 Kansas City 8 548,070 68,508 89.3 2013 30 Pittsburgh 8 458,489 57,311 88.2 Green Bay and Tennessee are one thing. I am certain that once things get "primed" here and the Bills have a solid and capable team without inept management, we will see tickets fly... and tickets will sustain through some bad stretches too as we see with the Sabres. There would likely be a waiting list as any home playoff games would be huge. Some people will HAVE to be there, others will see an opportunity to profit. Travelling fans would be paying more to get in too once RWS is packed. Think of the Bills base in the mid 80s. What was there like 20K a game? Then that translated into some pretty good attendance. Now we would be rising from 60-70K. Tickets are sold and resold on the internet as commodities. We also havent seen the Bills win a playoff game in 17 years or since they have regionalized so well in Rochester and Ontario, which they claim so much more support from. I would have never believed the Sabres could be where they are at now, but it is largely because they were underpriced and the tickets came into huge demand. The same thing would happen with the Bills. As a STH who is normally a guy to go to when friends look for tickets for things, EVERYONE seems to come out of the woodwork when the Bills had the 2 recent hot starts. EVERYONE I go with magically is using their tickets for once... so I look at stubhub and the cheapest tickets are like 3x-5x face value. it is a completely different world in sports, WNY, and ticketing as it was 20-25 years ago. I would never have imagined the Sabres selling tickets like they do at the pricing. Brand new arena they sold out for like a week. Playoff games with some electric 90s teams wouldnt sell out until the walk-up and big regular season games would see 13K people. Edited March 27, 2014 by May Day 10
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