Buffalo native Greg Gabriel gives his insight on Williams & Graham

[C.Biscuit97]

I've known Greg Gabriel for a long time he is a good friend of my sister and brother-in-law. He was at my home a few years ago, it was when Losman was named the Bills starter. He gave a very accurate assessment of Losman which was pretty depressing, almost prophetic though.

 

Greg is a guy that worked his way into an NFL job. Watched a lot of film, wrote reports. Spent two scouting part time for the Bills. Then sixteen years as a full time scout for the Giants, which led to him being named the Director of College Scouting for the Bears. A position he held for ten years. All in all a 28 year career in the NFL.

 

And you?

 

You should have just dropped the mic after this. Awesome. He got paid to do what most of the people here waste time at work to do. Obviously these guys make their mistakes but I value their opinion over a random person's. It's crazy how much people value Mel Kiper's opinion about the draft when he has absolutely no football resume.

[billybrew1]

This is a great post.

Listened to the interview. I thought john Murphy blew it at the end. The scout was telling him that the free agent players have to fit the system that they are going to and that both Williams and Graham fit our systems well.

John Murphy said, "huh?"

"You know the draft is coming up....."

 

I thought John should have asked the scout to elaborate more on that topic.....

[chris heff]

 

 

No, that's not my response. You keep wanting it to be my response, but it isn't.

 

I'll make it even easier. No, not everyone is an NFL caliber scout. Most probably could be if they spent enough time at it.

 

Don't try to make a point with a ridiculous example that easily disproves your point (i.e.; Losman).

 

Don't try to argue against the obvious--history has already proven what many fans already suspected: many talent evaluators in the NFL, no matter how long they have been at it are not very good at their job. A lay person should be able to, and can, point that out without much argument. There are poor performers in every occupation. Why claim these guys are beyond reproach just because they are being payed to make evaluations?

 

And don't connect poor decisions by talent evaluators with fans' wish to consume/follow sports or a specific team. It makes no sense--at all. We keep hoping they will make better decisions than they have, or someone will....

The reason I used Losman as an example is because my 10 year old nephew asked Greg if he thought Losman was going to be good. I'm sorry I did not make that clear, after all you were not in attendance that day. I don't claim anyone is beyond reproach, however 28 years in the same profession might indicate that individual had some experience. You are correct, he managed scouts and made recommendations to a GM, Jerry Angelo, who brought him to Chicago from NY. Angelo fired him and others in a job saving attempt . Angelo was eventually fired anyway. I'm unsure of your point, it is obvious that people in professional sports are fired often and move to other organizations. Greg Gabriel's 28 years in the NFL is a pretty good run. When he was fired he decided to retire. It wasn't like there were no offers. Please remember, I know him.

 

So your premiss is that a multi-billion dollar industry is wasting millions paying talent evaluates when all they really need to do is ask astute fans?

[Mr. WEO]

The reason I used Losman as an example is because my 10 year old nephew asked Greg if he thought Losman was going to be good. I'm sorry I did not make that clear, after all you were not in attendance that day. I don't claim anyone is beyond reproach, however 28 years in the same profession might indicate that individual had some experience. You are correct, he managed scouts and made recommendations to a GM, Jerry Angelo, who brought him to Chicago from NY. Angelo fired him and others in a job saving attempt . Angelo was eventually fired anyway. I'm unsure of your point, it is obvious that people in professional sports are fired often and move to other organizations. Greg Gabriel's 28 years in the NFL is a pretty good run. When he was fired he decided to retire. It wasn't like there were no offers. Please remember, I know him.

 

So your premiss is that a multi-billion dollar industry is wasting millions paying talent evaluates when all they really need to do is ask astute fans?

 

For the last time, no. I didn't say this.

 

Look, you win.

[NoSaint]

Please remember, I know him.

 

we have caught that point, many times. and i know i appreciate the insights from people that actually know an nfl insider, but it seems you are really taking it too personally when someone brings up questions about his resume or ability, and it devolves into this bickering thats getting nowhere instead of being a cool insight.

 

hes obviously pretty good or he wouldnt be around so long. he obviously had some mistakes. it happens to all of us.

 

there are guys in the league that probably dont deserve their post, just like there are at any big company. in a lot of ways the nfl is old school, set in its ways and not the most welcoming to outsiders. sometimes there are guys that put too much stock in who they know or what their gut says over cold hard stats. Dave wannstedt has been around the nfl forever and was a DC just a year ago for that side of the argument.

 

there are a lot of guys that earned it with a lot of hard work and quality work too. he seems like one of those guys, even if there are some possible blemishes on the way out.

 

no one is insulting your friend as a person, they are simply discussing an interview he gave about a player he drafted that busted in the city he drafted him and was likely part of his exit ticket. there are bound to be some statements or questions that arent flattering of gabriel in that discussion. gabriel is generally well liked on this board and many wanted him in our front office for a long time. even some of those that are questioning his call on this player.

Edited March 18, 2014 by NoSaint

[BUFFALOTONE]

 

 

I feel good about the O-line already--I would cite the thread you mentioned also. Those who dump on the O-line can't come to grips with the real problems last year: QB play and OC performance. Gabriel's pick won't change this.

 

That's not crying...

 

This is correct, no synergy last year at the most crucial position counted for a lot of those sacks. Not to mention the fact that the OC didn't alter the game plan one iota week to week. I don't have an issue with the read option as its a strength WHEN EJ RUNS IT! You cant do it with Tuel or Lewis. Not the same skill set. While Lewis did the best he could his scrambling and lack of awareness in the pocket added to this sack numbers. EJ has that problem as well but carries the upside a hell of a lot better.

[NoSaint]

 

 

This is correct, no synergy last year at the most crucial position counted for a lot of those sacks. Not to mention the fact that the OC didn't alter the game plan one iota week to week. I don't have an issue with the read option as its a strength WHEN EJ RUNS IT! You cant do it with Tuel or Lewis. Not the same skill set. While Lewis did the best he could his scrambling and lack of awareness in the pocket added to this sack numbers. EJ has that problem as well but carries the upside a hell of a lot better.

 

last year was just all over the place - especially in the passing game. our qbs combined for about 2 starts going into the season, and those 2 were a guy that was picked up in september, outside stevie, we had a similarly inexperienced group of WRs, and an OC with even less experience... and then just pile on injuries at qb....

 

Our line certainly had some issues with talent, but we did them no favors either.

[thewildrabbit]

Tipster I think your fine. Heff has a connection to Gabriel which makes critiicism of him hit closer to home (although I totally agree with Heff's position)

 

I find myself argueing for a player I havent even watched that much....

 

What I do know is I am confidient in Doug Whaley.....who found some real gems last offseason.

For the defense for certain

 

For the O line...real gems, really? Colin Brown, Sam Young, Doug Legursky.

 

In free agency I was hoping for Geoff Schwartz or Zane Beadles for OG, Zach Strief for OT. Now those are starters who graded in the green

 

Given last years history in replacing Andy Levitre I'm not as optimistic as some. Especially considering that Chris Williams grades only slightly better then Legursky at (-21.8)

 

In fact, I'm downright disappointed the Bills would settle for a player who graded as bad as this.

[Green Lightning]

 

 

I feel good about the O-line already--I would cite the thread you mentioned also. Those who dump on the O-line can't come to grips with the real problems last year: QB play and OC performance. Gabriel's pick won't change this.

 

That's not crying...

 

I think we all get that point WEO. Rookie QB and OC = growing pains. We need to see a a full season and improvements from both. Focusing on the FA moves however, I'm thinking the FO finally has a clue. My post wasn't targeted at you btw.

[D521646]

I dunno, it seems to me that no amount of offensive talent is going anywhere unless we can figure out how to run the ball at will, and protect EJ. If Whaley and Co think Williams is the answer at LG then let him prove it.

 

 

Tim-

[Mr. WEO]

This is correct, no synergy last year at the most crucial position counted for a lot of those sacks. Not to mention the fact that the OC didn't alter the game plan one iota week to week. I don't have an issue with the read option as its a strength WHEN EJ RUNS IT! You cant do it with Tuel or Lewis. Not the same skill set. While Lewis did the best he could his scrambling and lack of awareness in the pocket added to this sack numbers. EJ has that problem as well but carries the upside a hell of a lot better.

 

The OC did alter the game--he dumbed it down after the Tampa disaster. And I thought Lewis looked a lot more fleet on his feet than EJ did.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

This is correct, no synergy last year at the most crucial position counted for a lot of those sacks. Not to mention the fact that the OC didn't alter the game plan one iota week to week. I don't have an issue with the read option as its a strength WHEN EJ RUNS IT! You cant do it with Tuel or Lewis. Not the same skill set. While Lewis did the best he could his scrambling and lack of awareness in the pocket added to this sack numbers. EJ has that problem as well but carries the upside a hell of a lot better.

 

There was no “synergy” on the O-line?

This is a nice attempt at capturing things in hindsight without saying anything at all. Is that what was missing? Or was it how Colin Brown simply got beat man-on-man often enough that he was released by week 5 and remains unemployed? Or did you mean QB synergy? - that I agree with.

 

The read option is a strength when EJ runs it?

What in the world were you watching last year? EJ looks the part, but is a train wreck waiting to happen when he takes off running – as evidenced by what TJ Ward did to him in Cleveland. And I would argue Thad Lewis would be best suited to run read option plays, if and only if that is really what you want to do as an offense. The NFL has an endless supply of defenders that will eventually get you.

 

The read option is really just a fad that will soon disappear, much like the wildcat already has. There are very few NFL QBs who are even capable of running an option play. And they are not worth the exposure to the eventual pounding that will come with running an option (see Griffin III, Robert). In 2013, SF didn’t risk Kaepernick nearly as much as they did in his previous (SB) year. And for as capable as Russell Wilson is, option-wise, he did not really run it very much last year at all.

 

A QB is too valuable a position to risk having to play the backup on the very next play. Just get rid of it, and live to play another play.

Edited March 18, 2014 by HankBulloughMellencamp

[BUFFALOTONE]

 

 

last year was just all over the place - especially in the passing game. our qbs combined for about 2 starts going into the season, and those 2 were a guy that was picked up in september, outside stevie, we had a similarly inexperienced group of WRs, and an OC with even less experience... and then just pile on injuries at qb....

 

Our line certainly had some issues with talent, but we did them no favors either.

 

Yup, that was the basis of my argument earlier. We know there are a few glaring weaknesses at OL. But our lack of playmakers IMO far outweighs the OL issues.

 

 

 

The OC did alter the game--he dumbed it down after the Tampa disaster. And I thought Lewis looked a lot more fleet on his feet than EJ did.

 

Ok, I will give you that. But its even more of an indictment of how bad the QB play was. Thad holds the ball like he is in a sand lot game and has zero touch. he can throw a deep ball as we saw when he connected a few times late in the year.

 

 

 

There was no “synergy” on the O-line?

This is a nice attempt at capturing things in hindsight without saying anything at all. Is that what was missing? Or was it how Colin Brown simply got beat man-on-man often enough that he was released by week 5 and remains unemployed? Or did you mean QB synergy? - that I agree with.

 

The read option is a strength when EJ runs it?

What in the world were you watching last year? EJ looks the part, but is a train wreck waiting to happen when he takes off running – as evidenced by what TJ Ward did to him in Cleveland. And I would argue Thad Lewis would be best suited to run read option plays, if and only if that is really what you want to do as an offense. The NFL has an endless supply of defenders that will eventually get you.

 

The read option is really just a fad that will soon disappear, much like the wildcat already has. There are very few NFL QBs who are even capable of running an option play. And they are not worth the exposure to the eventual pounding that will come with running an option (see Griffin III, Robert). In 2013, SF didn’t risk Kaepernick nearly as much as they did in his previous (SB) year. And for as capable as Russell Wilson is, option-wise, he did not really run it very much last year at all.

 

A QB is too valuable a position to risk having to play the backup on the very next play. Just get rid of it, and live to play another play.

 

I meant the entire offense. The read option is designed to freeze the LBers and ends to give EJ a few more seconds to read the defense. Which I thought he did a decent job a few times, his problem is he hasn't caught up to the speed of the game from transitioning to college and that's why you see late picks across the middle. The read option maximizes our offenses strength on every play which is the threat that the our RBs may touch it every play. EJ has to build confidence and trust his decision and throws, something Hackett was hammering into him daily. Next year will be telling, as for the rest of the league Kaep and Wilson are way ahead of the curve already, that could tbe the reason they don't feel the need to run the read option.

[chris heff]

 

 

There was no “synergy” on the O-line?

This is a nice attempt at capturing things in hindsight without saying anything at all. Is that what was missing? Or was it how Colin Brown simply got beat man-on-man often enough that he was released by week 5 and remains unemployed? Or did you mean QB synergy? - that I agree with.

 

The read option is a strength when EJ runs it?

What in the world were you watching last year? EJ looks the part, but is a train wreck waiting to happen when he takes off running – as evidenced by what TJ Ward did to him in Cleveland. And I would argue Thad Lewis would be best suited to run read option plays, if and only if that is really what you want to do as an offense. The NFL has an endless supply of defenders that will eventually get you.

 

The read option is really just a fad that will soon disappear, much like the wildcat already has. There are very few NFL QBs who are even capable of running an option play. And they are not worth the exposure to the eventual pounding that will come with running an option (see Griffin III, Robert). In 2013, SF didn’t risk Kaepernick nearly as much as they did in his previous (SB) year. And for as capable as Russell Wilson is, option-wise, he did not really run it very much last year at all.

 

A QB is too valuable a position to risk having to play the backup on the very next play. Just get rid of it, and live to play another play.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, best user name ever.

 

I agree with all of this.

[Doc]

The OC did alter the game--he dumbed it down after the Tampa disaster. And I thought Lewis looked a lot more fleet on his feet than EJ did.

Did he really dumb it down?

[John from Riverside]

For the defense for certain

 

For the O line...real gems, really? Colin Brown, Sam Young, Doug Legursky.

 

In free agency I was hoping for Geoff Schwartz or Zane Beadles for OG, Zach Strief for OT. Now those are starters who graded in the green

 

Given last years history in replacing Andy Levitre I'm not as optimistic as some. Especially considering that Chris Williams grades only slightly better then Legursky at (-21.8)

 

In fact, I'm downright disappointed the Bills would settle for a player who graded as bad as this.

 

I wont speak for Whaley....but maybe they made offers to some other guys and they want to come here? Maybe they felt some other guys were only slightly better then what we have? Maybe they plan on upgrading in the draft from what looks to be a very deep draft for OL? Lets keep in mind that the word on the street is there are gonna be OL starters in the 3rd round of this draft.....and the prevailing thought of the bills is you take OT's in college and move them to guard in the NFL.

 

Also....JJ Unga is a intriging prospect to me......we also made a qualifying offer to another OL that was drafted pretty high by another team.

 

I think the ultimate thing her is Marrone being a OL coach thinks he can dumpster players into serviceable players......I think that happened (and failed) with Colin Brown. I think that this year Marrone was smart enough to at least do it with highly drafted players so you know the athletic ability is there as a foundation.

 

I am totally in wait and see mode.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

I meant the entire offense. The read option is designed to freeze the LBers and ends to give EJ a few more seconds to read the defense. Which I thought he did a decent job a few times, his problem is he hasn't caught up to the speed of the game from transitioning to college and that's why you see late picks across the middle. The read option maximizes our offenses strength on every play which is the threat that the our RBs may touch it every play. EJ has to build confidence and trust his decision and throws, something Hackett was hammering into him daily. Next year will be telling, as for the rest of the league Kaep and Wilson are way ahead of the curve already, that could tbe the reason they don't feel the need to run the read option.

 

OK, but I don’t recall EJ running at & reading the OLB/DE very much ... nor do I remember him pitching it as he takes a hit to CJ or Fred (a la Turner Gill). It’s a buzzword more than anything these days. If we run ANY true read option stuff with EJ, we have the dumbest coaching staff in the NFL. That boy needs to demonstrate he can play from the pocket, first and foremost.

 

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, best user name ever.

 

Thanks, I just updated my avatar for you, Heff.

[thewildrabbit]

I wont speak for Whaley....but maybe they made offers to some other guys and they want to come here? Maybe they felt some other guys were only slightly better then what we have? Maybe they plan on upgrading in the draft from what looks to be a very deep draft for OL? Lets keep in mind that the word on the street is there are gonna be OL starters in the 3rd round of this draft.....and the prevailing thought of the bills is you take OT's in college and move them to guard in the NFL.

 

Also....JJ Unga is a intriging prospect to me......we also made a qualifying offer to another OL that was drafted pretty high by another team.

 

I think the ultimate thing her is Marrone being a OL coach thinks he can dumpster players into serviceable players......I think that happened (and failed) with Colin Brown. I think that this year Marrone was smart enough to at least do it with highly drafted players so you know the athletic ability is there as a foundation.

 

I am totally in wait and see mode.

I hear ya John, and can only hope you are right about turning some of these players into serviceable starters at some point.

 

While I can understand the reasoning behind bringing in experienced NFL linemen who can hold down a position to some degree. My thoughts are, why are they settling for players that grade this poorly?

 

My idea of building proper O line is with elite talent at least at the LT-LG-C positions and then moderate talent at RG-RT. With the backups being raw young players that can cut their teeth on special teams.

 

 

I dunno, perhaps its this Buffalo Bills philosophy that the O line isn't that important that I resent so much. That they can get by with scrubs, and third rounders on the O line, but the D line needs to have 100 million dollar DE, a #1 overall, a #3 overall at DT, an all pro at DT, and another #1 at DE in Branch.

[Bill from NYC]

I'm sure. Mostly because it means no high round CB pick.

I'm sure. Mostly because it means no high round CB pick.

 

Yes, but this isn't the only reason my friend. I have a feeling that if he does bump someone in the lineup it won't be the player most would expect. I'm just sayin.........

[C.Biscuit97]

Yes, but this isn't the only reason my friend. I have a feeling that if he does bump someone in the lineup it won't be the player most would expect. I'm just sayin.........

 

You mean Gilmore or McKelvin? Because obviously you hate them both for being 1st round picks and won't let it go. Just like Spiller, Whitner, etc. They are the team. Move on.