The Bills are doing an excellent job in Free Agency

[bowery4]

bTw there is always subtrafage and straight out lies no doubt but if you are talking with Spiller (or Marcel for that matter) and you are not getting answers or at least enough to determine which way this is heading, shopping them is maybe a better option than not esply when you will or might have to draft, or sign in fa to replace them. franciese tags suck from thier perspectives and you may have a lot of power in some respects but really they are in the drivers seat at that point.

i didn't use to think that but I admit i am learning.Let me

 

 

 

simplify for clearities sake, I think we could get 2nd for CJ right now, pretag Byrd too. aftrr tag all you hear is "it's a business" from the player and they are thinking what thier next team is.

Edited March 16, 2014 by bowery4

[bowery4]

One last b tw with the fa we have had spending Byrds money, I think we might have done okay, if it works out the way last years did.

If they still can't stop the run, lose most the time and give up too many 3rd down conversions.....not so much. Looks okay on paper though. On to the draft!

[Thurman#1]

that 9 mil almost covered 2 starters and a very good nickel back [spikes 3.5, graham 4.0 and rivers 2.5]

 

 

Two journeymen who may well end up as starters. And a decent part-time CB. For a difference-maker.

 

Horrible exchange, IMHO. And we had plenty of room to pick up Byrd and those three if you think we needed them.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thurman#1

[Prickly Pete]

Two journeymen who may well end up as starters. And a decent part-time CB. For a difference-maker.

 

Horrible exchange. And again, we had plenty of room to pick up Byrd and those three if you think we needed them.

 

So you aren't gonna watch this season?

 

I mean, they are obviously going to be worse than last year, so why bother?

[Thurman#1]

Of course dead money is important.

In 2017 the New Orleans Saints decide do I want to pay a 30 year old safety 9M and have 11 mil against the cap or do I only want a 2.5 mil cap hit in dead money. It's a real decision that will be dictated by Byrd's play. But they have that decision because the contract is structured that way on purpose.

I don't understand why you think 2 million compared to 11million would compel the saints to keep him. It's pretty easy for a team to eat that 2 mil if Byrd isn't playing at a 1st team all pro level.

 

 

I'm just pointing out that you wanted to ignore that dead money. And that doing so is intellectually dishonest. You mentioned $11 mill as the figure they'd save if they cut the guy in 2017. It isn't. They'd save $8.8 mill. And again, if they didn't think Byrd was worth $9 mill ... they simply wouldn't have signed him to this contract.

 

 

Secondly if you really believe that NFL teams and NFL players believe that they will pay and play an entire contract like that when they set them up I can't have a discussion with you.

 

 

Fair enough. I admire you for being willing to admit that your mind is so completely closed that you're simply not willing to hear where you're wrong. Most people whose minds are this closed don't admit it.

 

The facts are - and these are facts, not opinions but simple facts - that some contracts won't last past the guarantee, some will last a bit past the guarantee, some will last all the way to the end, and some will last almost all the way to the end and will have been so successful for both sides that a happy re-negotiation will take place. When they sign contracts, teams and players don't know which of those will happen in this case, so both sides negotiate carefully so that they will get a fair deal in each of these cases.

 

But if you want to pretend that that's not true, it's your business.

 

All you have to do is talk to Jared Allen. He'll tell you that the whole contract is important. But hey, if you are not willing to look at the whole picture, far be it from me to tell you to change.

 

 

NFL FOs negotiate contracts so that players can be cut and minimize cap impact. NFL player's agents negotiators contracts to maximize guaranteed money. Both could care less if the contract is played out or not.

 

 

Heh, heh. Yeah, OK. Guess that's why you see so many agents signing their clients to contracts for the veteran minimum late in the contract. It just doesn't matter to them.

 

 

It is Byrd's personal best interest to play well and get cut next year and sign another contract with guaranteed money.

It is the Saints best interest to re-no this contract or cut Byrd by 2018 if he isn't playing at a 1st team all pro level.

Both parties know this right now.

They have no illusions of the reality of NFL contracts.

 

Most Big Money contract do not play out. That is an indisputable fact of the NFL. If you choose to reject that fact you can do that, that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

 

I'm not the one rejecting facts. That's you. You're saying only guarantees are important. All I have to do is find one case where that's wrong and it's disproved. Hello, Jared Allen. Your argument is blown. Yeah, guarantees are important, I've never denied it. No, they aren't the only thing that is important, it's all important. There are hundreds of contracts in the NFL where guys have gone beyond the guarantees, and that is stone-cold proof that you're wrong. It's all important.

 

You're right about one thing, the majority of big money contracts don't play out. Same with medium-money contracts. And small money contracts. But that's not because people don't care about it. It's because lots of times guys don't play well in new environments. They don't fit well in new systems. They stop working hard when they get big money. They do very well for a while but the coaches and systems change and they no longer fit. They have drastic injuries that reduce their effectiveness. They get in the coach's doghouse. Whatever. True of big-money, small-money and medium-money contracts.

 

But there is also a very large number of contracts that DO go past the guarantee. And lots go a lot farther than that. That's a fact, and indisputable proof that everything matters.

 

Again, talk to Jared Allen.

 

Talk to Jabari Greer who signed a four-year contract with the Saints and then after three years signed a very friendly extra-money deal to stay with the team so that he actually ended up staying five years instead of the extra four and earning more money to stay. He'll tell you the later part of that contract was very important, in that first he went past the guarantee and kept playing and then the later terms of his contract made it worthwhile for the Saints to sign him to for more years.

 

Talk to Antoine Winfield, who happily played way a full five years of his six-year contract with the Vikes and then happily signed a re-negotiated deal to greatly extend his stay for more money, because the Vikes were happy with him but also made possible by the conditions of the last year of that first deal. If you don't think that stuff matters, it's because you're not looking closely enough.

 

For you to prove that ONLY the guarantee is important, there can't be a single case where the statement is wrong. And there isn't a single case, there are many cases. I've never claimed that the way that every contract works out the later years will be important. But those later years are plenty important. Agents and teams agonize over those. And many many contracts go past the guarantee, that's a fact. In any given contract there's a pretty decent chance the player will be there past the guarantee, particularly if they play well, and having played extremely well in four different offenses in five years, there's a great chance Byrd will play well. His good play hasn't been scheme-dependent or the result of being surrounded by great players for the last five years. He's very likely to play well and thus very likely to go past his guarantee.

 

And if he does play well, the Saints are very likely to keep him because in no year does he impact the cap more than $9 mill to cut him. Particularly with the cap going up so much so very soon. With a cap scheduled to go above $150 mill while his guarantee still affects him, salary inflation will make his contract look smaller and far more reasonable as it goes along.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thurman#1

[thewildrabbit]

Two journeymen who may well end up as starters. And a decent part-time CB. For a difference-maker.

 

Horrible exchange, IMHO. And we had plenty of room to pick up Byrd and those three if you think we needed them.

I think most fans just don't get how valuable certain players are in the league. It takes a very special player to make the impact that Byrd made, playing on bad defenses.

 

Obviously the Saints thought he was worth the investment, and the Bills didn't. It just really bugs me that both those 2009, 2nd round picks who graded out above average are now both gone. Then consider that the first, first round pick in that draft was a complete bust in Maybin. So, when they do manage to find decent talent, that they have great difficulty keeping it.

[thewildrabbit]

So you aren't gonna watch this season?

 

I mean, they are obviously going to be worse than last year, so why bother?

So far, to me it is shaping up to be another difficult season to even watch games. I just don't see the "excellent job" in free agency this team has done.

 

An excellent job in my view would have been to keep Byrd @ 9 mill, sign OG Geoff Schwartz, or go after Alex Mack and move Wood to OG. sign RT Zach Strief, and build that line properly.

 

Although I like the Brandon Spikes signing to help stop the run, its not that great for me for a two down LBer.

[Thurman#1]

Best part about what the Bills did in FA is it allows them to draft an offensive playmaker with the first pick. Yea, they could always go OL. But I think they go big and look for someone that can help EJ out. And look for a Guard in the 2nd round. Or maybe a RT.

 

I just hope they stay away from Safety. They have bigger needs. Evans or Ebron.

 

 

If they trade back, I wouldn't mind Ebron.

 

The way things seem to be likely to fall, with Watkins and Mack likely to be gone, if they don't trade back, I'd expect either an OT or an LB.

[Chandler#81]

I think most fans just don't get how valuable certain players are in the league. It takes a very special player to make the impact that Byrd made, playing on bad defenses.

 

Obviously the Saints thought he was worth the investment, and the Bills didn't. It just really bugs me that both those 2009, 2nd round picks who graded out above average are now both gone. Then consider that the first, first round pick in that draft was a complete bust in Maybin. So, when they do manage to find decent talent, that they have great difficulty keeping it.

 

IMO, the biggest reason the Saints think Byrd is worth this investment is because he's an INT Machine. Their window, again, IMO, is closing pretty fast and they can be scored on -just not by us.. More INT's gives Brees more opportunities and less scoring by the opponent. I agree with many here that Jairus won't live out his contract with them.

[Hatszel]

I will go out on a limb here, I feel that the Saints is a team on decline knowing there window is closing is why the paid the money for bird and the Bills is on the upswing. My gut is telling me that the Bills will have more wins than the Saints if that so does that make Byrd the problem? No but when you overpay for positions other than QB you can't field serviceable people at all positions for an extended period of time. That is why teams like the Ravens had to dismantle after winning the Super Bowl. I like that we are building depth to our team that is making us better if OBD is thinking this is the year we can get to the super bowl then we should go after Wolfork (like the Patriots went after Revis) but if we were to go to the Super Bowl we would have a difficult time getting back because I am sure Wolfork's contract would cause an imbalance on the team and hurt us elsewhere creating a deficiency. Loosing Byrd hurts, but I think he wanted to move on for what ever reason, I believe the Bills made him a good offer better than all but one team (Saints) The Saint window is narrower than the Bills they were more willing to overpay for a S than we were but we were close and if our offer was not where it was neither would the Saints offer been where it is Without the Bills Byrd is not making 9 million so he should be thankful for our contract offer. If it comes out that we offered $30 mill for 3 Years then definitely Byrd true feels will be out for all to see, as for now we can only speculate.

I for one feel the moves need to be made on the offensive line, our skill players are fine Look to NE they have had wr/running backs do extremely well that nobody else even wanted, If you have a good line almost any back that trusts his line can average 4.5 yrd/carry exceptional back will get 6.0 Brady/Manning/ are only as good as there lines giving them enough time to throw. See the super bowl, Manning had no time to throw and the team was not effective.

 

I would like to see if an offensive line made an average of 7 million a year and deserved it how good would they make there QB, RB and WR. It the flash we get excited about but it is the line that makes it work if you have 1 million dollar line players we all know what the offense would look like, sack !

[1B4IDie]

 

 

I'm just pointing out that you wanted to ignore that dead money. And that doing so is intellectually dishonest. You mentioned $11 mill as the figure they'd save if they cut the guy in 2017. It isn't. They'd save $8.8 mill. And again, if they didn't think Byrd was worth $9 mill ... they simply wouldn't have signed him to this contract.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I admire you for being willing to admit that your mind is so completely closed that you're simply not willing to hear where you're wrong. Most people whose minds are this closed don't admit it.

 

The facts are - and these are facts, not opinions but simple facts - that some contracts won't last past the guarantee, some will last a bit past the guarantee, some will last all the way to the end, and some will last almost all the way to the end and will have been so successful for both sides that a happy re-negotiation will take place. When they sign contracts, teams and players don't know which of those will happen in this case, so both sides negotiate carefully so that they will get a fair deal in each of these cases.

 

But if you want to pretend that that's not true, it's your business.

 

All you have to do is talk to Jared Allen. He'll tell you that the whole contract is important. But hey, if you are not willing to look at the whole picture, far be it from me to tell you to change.

 

 

 

 

 

Heh, heh. Yeah, OK. Guess that's why you see so many agents signing their clients to contracts for the veteran minimum late in the contract. It just doesn't matter to them.

 

 

 

 

I'm not the one rejecting facts. That's you. You're saying only guarantees are important. All I have to do is find one case where that's wrong and it's disproved. Hello, Jared Allen. Your argument is blown. Yeah, guarantees are important, I've never denied it. No, they aren't the only thing that is important, it's all important. There are hundreds of contracts in the NFL where guys have gone beyond the guarantees, and that is stone-cold proof that you're wrong. It's all important.

 

You're right about one thing, the majority of big money contracts don't play out. Same with medium-money contracts. And small money contracts. But that's not because people don't care about it. It's because lots of times guys don't play well in new environments. They don't fit well in new systems. They stop working hard when they get big money. They do very well for a while but the coaches and systems change and they no longer fit. They have drastic injuries that reduce their effectiveness. They get in the coach's doghouse. Whatever. True of big-money, small-money and medium-money contracts.

 

But there is also a very large number of contracts that DO go past the guarantee. And lots go a lot farther than that. That's a fact, and indisputable proof that everything matters.

 

Again, talk to Jared Allen.

 

Talk to Jabari Greer who signed a four-year contract with the Saints and then after three years signed a very friendly extra-money deal to stay with the team so that he actually ended up staying five years instead of the extra four and earning more money to stay. He'll tell you the later part of that contract was very important, in that first he went past the guarantee and kept playing and then the later terms of his contract made it worthwhile for the Saints to sign him to for more years.

 

Talk to Antoine Winfield, who happily played way a full five years of his six-year contract with the Vikes and then happily signed a re-negotiated deal to greatly extend his stay for more money, because the Vikes were happy with him but also made possible by the conditions of the last year of that first deal. If you don't think that stuff matters, it's because you're not looking closely enough.

 

For you to prove that ONLY the guarantee is important, there can't be a single case where the statement is wrong. And there isn't a single case, there are many cases. I've never claimed that the way that every contract works out the later years will be important. But those later years are plenty important. Agents and teams agonize over those. And many many contracts go past the guarantee, that's a fact. In any given contract there's a pretty decent chance the player will be there past the guarantee, particularly if they play well, and having played extremely well in four different offenses in five years, there's a great chance Byrd will play well. His good play hasn't been scheme-dependent or the result of being surrounded by great players for the last five years. He's very likely to play well and thus very likely to go past his guarantee.

 

And if he does play well, the Saints are very likely to keep him because in no year does he impact the cap more than $9 mill to cut him. Particularly with the cap going up so much so very soon. With a cap scheduled to go above $150 mill while his guarantee still affects him, salary inflation will make his contract look smaller and far more reasonable as it goes along.

This so full with preposterous straw-man arguments I think you may actual be the real Thurman Thomas.

 

1.) You can say Jared Allen as many times you want. It doesn't prove that guaranteed money and signing bonus are less important. He played out his contact. Awesome, Jared Allen played out his entire contract you found the exception that proves the rule.

 

2.) There is no dishonesty in any of my posts. There may have been an honest mistake. I said 11 instead of 8.8. You can hang out to that if you want. It is just more evidence of how unreasonable you are.

 

3.) What does this arbitrary 9m dollar number you keep bring up have to do with anything?

 

4.) The only thing you proved is you're unreasonable poster that can't make a logical argument based on actual evidence that occurred. Instead you can bore everyone with be labored straw-man arguments and nit pick technicalities.

[i miss marv]

The 49ers said after the draft that they tried to trade for Byrd, but were unable to work out a deal with the Bills because the Bills feared dropping to 30 they would not get the player they wanted (EJ). That is why they traded up to 18 with Dallas to get Reid. I understand that Byrd and Levitre signed bad contracts and if year after year the Bills were near the max of the salary cap and not carrying over cap space, letting bad contracts go would be fine. The Bills have added depth while creating a new hole. I just can't agree with the topic that the Bills are doing an excellent job in free agency when we have created more holes then we had last year when we were 6-10.

 

All I am saying about Spiller is either he fits the system or doesn't. If he fits the system then he should be playing not Jackson. If he doesn't fit the system get a fourth or fifth round pick for him now, if you can, so that you can draft his without using one of your picks. We can't be a young rebuilding team while having a 33 year old running back getting the bulk of the carries. I think what we did with Wood and Williams is great and by not doing the same with Spiller either he doesn't want to be here or we are unsure about him. Either way it looks like he will end up the next guy in a long line of Bills top picks that leaves the Bills because he is over paid somewhere else and the Bills have to use a draft pick not to improve the team, but to fill a hole.

[thewildrabbit]

 

IMO, the biggest reason the Saints think Byrd is worth this investment is because he's an INT Machine. Their window, again, IMO, is closing pretty fast and they can be scored on -just not by us.. More INT's gives Brees more opportunities and less scoring by the opponent. I agree with many here that Jairus won't live out his contract with them.

Pardon me, but isn't that exactly the same reason he should be worth the 9 mill per to the Bills? Wouldn't that type of turnover machine be a good investment to a top defense? If he was able to make all those plays on a bad defense, then just think what he could do for a consistently good defense.

 

The cash strapped Saints manage to cough up enough money to sign the best free agent Safety on the market, as their own starting safety Malcom Jenkins was stolen by Philly.

 

To me it makes as much sense to pay Byrd what he wanted compared to the 100 million they paid Super Mario. In comparison between the two, wouldn't the INT machine be worth more?

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Pardon me, but isn't that exactly the same reason he should be worth the 9 mill per to the Bills? Wouldn't that type of turnover machine be a good investment to a top defense? If he was able to make all those plays on a bad defense, then just think what he could do for a consistently good defense.

 

The cash strapped Saints manage to cough up enough money to sign the best free agent Safety on the market, as their own starting safety Malcom Jenkins was stolen by Philly.

 

To me it makes as much sense to pay Byrd what he wanted compared to the 100 million they paid Super Mario. In comparison between the two, wouldn't the INT machine be worth more?

If he was such a turnover machine how come no Ints came against elite or upper echelon QBs.He fed off poor and mediocre QBs. Played against Brady how many times not one pick.Hmmm.

[FireChan]

Pardon me, but isn't that exactly the same reason he should be worth the 9 mill per to the Bills? Wouldn't that type of turnover machine be a good investment to a top defense? If he was able to make all those plays on a bad defense, then just think what he could do for a consistently good defense.

 

The cash strapped Saints manage to cough up enough money to sign the best free agent Safety on the market, as their own starting safety Malcom Jenkins was stolen by Philly.

 

To me it makes as much sense to pay Byrd what he wanted compared to the 100 million they paid Super Mario. In comparison between the two, wouldn't the INT machine be worth more?

 

He didn't want to be here. He's made that quite obvious. I don't understand why we're still pining to overpay a guy who's heart was fading fast for this team.

 

Byrd isn't a future Hall of Famer. He's a good ball hawking safety. Aaron Williams played just as well as him, and took more reasonable money. Besides, Byrd was getting the ball thrown TO HIM by Geno this year, which inflated the stat.

 

If AW/Duke/Meeks/Searcy step up reasonably, we're fine. With or without Byrd, we played basically the same. He's not worth what a guy like Dareus, who sat out for half a game and NE got 100 yards rushing almost instantaneously is. Good player? Sure. But he didn't wanna be here.

 

Don't equate Byrd to Mario either. Mario is an incredible asset to this team, and has put up gaudy numbers consitenly, as well as doing the little things no one noticed. He literally won us the Dolphins game. What big play has Byrd made to win us a game? Let a garbage Falcons team throw all over us? Get some garbage time picks down 30 against Tampa? He's nice to have, but pass rushers are infinitely more important that safeties.

[YoloinOhio]

Building the Bills Roster the Steelers Way

 

http://billsmafia.co...e-steelers-way/

Edited March 16, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[BADOLBILZ]

Building the Bills Roster the Steelers Way

 

http://billsmafia.co...e-steelers-way/

 

Nonsense.

 

The Steelers have an identity and they stick with it. The Bills are changing defensive schemes for the fourth time in four seasons.

 

Overpaying for middling free agents is not what I would call an example of "team friendly".

 

We went thru this 14 years ago when Donahoe took over with the same plan.......if you are looking to replicate what the Steelers do then DO what the Steelers do.

 

Don't change your successful defense and marginalize 4-5 productive players in the process and then act like you've made progress.

[thurst44]

Nonsense.

 

The Steelers have an identity and they stick with it. The Bills are changing defensive schemes for the fourth time in four seasons.

 

Overpaying for middling free agents is not what I would call an example of "team friendly".

 

We went thru this 14 years ago when Donahoe took over with the same plan.......if you are looking to replicate what the Steelers do then DO what the Steelers do.

 

Don't change your successful defense and marginalize 4-5 productive players in the process and then act like you've made progress.

They hired a new DC b/c of matters out of their control, and have been vocal they are NOT making major changes -- it's all been fan hypotheticals based on Schwartz's D in the past...maybe right, maybe wrong.

 

Who are the 4-5 productive players who are being marginalized? Maybe Lawson, which would be unfortunate...but Alonso will likely be used more significantly.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Nonsense.

 

The Steelers have an identity and they stick with it. The Bills are changing defensive schemes for the fourth time in four seasons.

 

Overpaying for middling free agents is not what I would call an example of "team friendly".

 

We went thru this 14 years ago when Donahoe took over with the same plan.......if you are looking to replicate what the Steelers do then DO what the Steelers do.

 

Don't change your successful defense and marginalize 4-5 productive players in the process and then act like you've made progress.

Again, the chicken-egg scenario. Do they have stability because they are good, or are they good because they have stability? Having Dick Lebeau in tow at DC for years -- even across two coaching regimes -- kind of helps them out, a lot.

 

Has there been a bigger loss from the Bills' coaching staff during this playoff drought? I don't think so. Other than that LeBeau wanted to go back to a winner, there is no good reason and a better Bills organization would have made it their object to hold on to him.

 

This, too, could have been a good argument for bringing back Wade in that he could have fit that profile of a career DC who might coach out the rest of his years here with a lot of success. Marrone went for the "talented young mind" approach, instead. Make no mistake: if Schwartz has great success he will get offers elsewhere, and we will be having this discussion again.

 

The really good teams can sometimes handle that kind of turnover, but the Bills haven't yet grabbed a foothold and are still losing coaches.

[bobobonators]

Overall I'd give the Bills a B so far. The spikes signing put me over the top, from disappointment to being pretty happy with what we've accomplished. Without Spikes I would've said C-. The Williams deal really bothers me though with what we paid him.