TH3 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The teachers are more for the unions than they are for the kids. I can only speak from my experience......and yours is....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 In NY, who actually does the negotiating for the school districts? You are gonna love this.....the district hires a law firm specializing in such matters. Think about....school board members serve for their version of the public good....everyone had full time jobs...and to be of benefit it takes quite a bit of time....just to add value to the conversation. Much of the budget is boiler plate and is simply cut and pasted from year to year so the brass tacks are "step raises" which are automatics for years served and further accreditation. The other budget elements are the district contribution to retirement fund (they send you a bill - pray for a good stock market). NYS has for the most part, done a good job in keeping this adequately funded - Illinois not so much. Want to blame someone in Illinois? Blame your legislators.....its just math. The other element is health care. In my 6 years ending last year HC costs went up about 74 percent....and the only negotition hinge was how much teachers contribute. NYS has wonderful laws limiting negotiation so if there is no contract the teachers operate under the terms of the old one.....so why would the union ever concede anything? So the current situation to change things is very limited.....you can bring your "don't tread on me flag" with you but its not going to get you far. My personal view is Cuomo has set the stage for the voters to finally get pissed enough to force legislators to change the ability to negotiate. With the tax cap already over every year with step raises and benefit contribution escalation.....almost every district is now in the business of cutting scope every year. The Cuomo tax cap is like a boa constrictor squeezing each district....the pain is about to become very acute. It is upto the voters to change the game. My thoughts on HC are simple....you look at budgets and there sky rocketing costs coupled now with the tax cap and it reality is hitting home. The all up costs of a teacher are over 2x their salary. I stared at this algorythm for 6 years. Forgive typos. Ipad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 You are gonna love this.....the district hires a law firm specializing in such matters. Think about....school board members serve for their version of the public good....everyone had full time jobs...and to be of benefit it takes quite a bit of time....just to add value to the conversation. Much of the budget is boiler plate and is simply cut and pasted from year to year so the brass tacks are "step raises" which are automatics for years served and further accreditation. The other budget elements are the district contribution to retirement fund (they send you a bill - pray for a good stock market). NYS has for the most part, done a good job in keeping this adequately funded - Illinois not so much. Want to blame someone in Illinois? Blame your legislators.....its just math. The other element is health care. In my 6 years ending last year HC costs went up about 74 percent....and the only negotition hinge was how much teachers contribute. NYS has wonderful laws limiting negotiation so if there is no contract the teachers operate under the terms of the old one.....so why would the union ever concede anything? So the current situation to change things is very limited.....you can bring your "don't tread on me flag" with you but its not going to get you far. My personal view is Cuomo has set the stage for the voters to finally get pissed enough to force legislators to change the ability to negotiate. With the tax cap already over every year with step raises and benefit contribution escalation.....almost every district is now in the business of cutting scope every year. The Cuomo tax cap is like a boa constrictor squeezing each district....the pain is about to become very acute. It is upto the voters to change the game. My thoughts on HC are simple....you look at budgets and there sky rocketing costs coupled now with the tax cap and it reality is hitting home. The all up costs of a teacher are over 2x their salary. I stared at this algorythm for 6 years. Forgive typos. Ipad! Who, on the school district side actually agrees on the contract? I am aware of the Illinois problem. I have posted here a few times a chart showing school administrators scheduled pensions in that state. Many in the 100's of thousands of dollars annually. One at 680k and due to be worth 1.3mm when he dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If I thought there was a reasonable conversation ahead - I would participate - but why would you want to converse when you already have all the answers and I am a dumb ass. Because there's a time to have a reasonable conversation.... And that doesn't start with "the right is out of touch with reality"...when the empirical evidence suggests just the opposite. And, there's a time to call somebody out who makes uselss charges and refuses to back them up with fact....as I've now seen you do 3 times recently. 3 strikes and you're a dumbass, dumbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Who, on the school district side actually agrees on the contract? I am aware of the Illinois problem. I have posted here a few times a chart showing school administrators scheduled pensions in that state. Many in the 100's of thousands of dollars annually. One at 680k and due to be worth 1.3mm when he dies. The law firm interacts with board. Right now due to the tax cap the only variables the board can discuss in relation to the budget is how much the union contributes and - since there is a tax cap - how many positions and offerings (sports, extracurricular) are going to be cut to fit under the cap. Hey - its just like the salary cap! - Only it is going down and we are all the Cowboys. The board works in executive session - to affirm the contract - then has an open meeting for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Because there's a time to have a reasonable conversation.... And that doesn't start with "the right is out of touch with reality"...when the empirical evidence suggests just the opposite. And, there's a time to call somebody out who makes uselss charges and refuses to back them up with fact....as I've now seen you do 3 times recently. 3 strikes and you're a dumbass, dumbass. If you read through my school board experience you would see the effort to bring rhetoric into policy is much more complicated and nuanced than "Obama sucks" Yes - I think the GOP is out of touch with reality. They have no pragmatic alternative to the ACA, no pragmatic executable policy on immigration, they still focus much too much time on losing social commentary, do not recognize global warming (I am not going AG on you), I also think that a huge problem - maybe the biggest we have - is the lack of middle class income growth. I do not see the GOP getting their arms around this. It seems the GOP victories these days are due to redistricting and it makes me sick to see the efforts to change voter laws to constrict voting. Hey - let's win by having better ideas. Want proof the GOP is out of it. A black community activist with a losing record, an Islamic father, and an Islamic name just kicked the GOP candidates ass in the last election. I consider myself "R" and don't vote D....but I am terribly disappointed with where the GOP is right now. Our country needs a strong GOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If you read through my school board experience you would see the effort to bring rhetoric into policy is much more complicated and nuanced than "Obama sucks" Yes - I think the GOP is out of touch with reality. They have no pragmatic alternative to the ACA, no pragmatic executable policy on immigration, they still focus much too much time on losing social commentary, do not recognize global warming (I am not going AG on you), I also think that a huge problem - maybe the biggest we have - is the lack of middle class income growth. I do not see the GOP getting their arms around this. It seems the GOP victories these days are due to redistricting and it makes me sick to see the efforts to change voter laws to constrict voting. Hey - let's win by having better ideas. Want proof the GOP is out of it. A black community activist with a losing record, an Islamic father, and an Islamic name just kicked the GOP candidates ass in the last election. I consider myself "R" and don't vote D....but I am terribly disappointed with where the GOP is right now. Our country needs a strong GOP. The problem with the GOP is their alignment with social conservative interests in lieu of true fiscal conservatism and social libertarianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Who is this basking dude? Interesting takes on stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 As far as Takeyoutasker: You are all over the place - but seeing as you are the smartest man in the room AND hold the earth up...I see you are busy... If I'm all over the place, it's because I line itemized your own post when responding. I am not against charter schools and I don't say that schools have the answers - nor should they - umm said that for the THIRD time. Forgive me then, for questioning your mentioning of charter schools in a thread about charter schools. I would say 1/3 of kids don't belong in college, don't want to go to college and will end up in the trades - which actually pay very well. Why put them through 4 years of college prep to fail? - the government bureaucracy seems to be predetermining that every kid should go college prep - isn't this the same thing? Calm down - maybe the kid and his parents are picking a trade....not forcing anyone to do anything.... Every kid should receive an education instructing in math, science, US history, economics and household finance, and the english language; and that's it. The educational system did not need to take over for the former private apprenticeship system, which yeilded better results. It also has no business dealing in arts, music, and sports. "Why not address military spending? Or entitlements? Or wasteful and redundant departments and their entire budgets?" - We should! But, tellingly, that's not where you focused your lazer. You chose healthcare. "This is absurd, but again, not for this thread". - Whatever...but seeing how smart you are.... It doesn't require a Rhodes Scholar to differentiate between threads about heathcare and threads about charter schools. "What in the seven hells do private healthcare costs have to do with public budgets?" I am not talking about private HC costs - I am talking about my experience funding teachers HC - which by the way is delivered by the same private insurers as the private sector - so the costs are the same. Teachers contribute 7 percent in our district - NYS average is around 16 percent. You can compare that to what you contribute. I use consierge medicine, so that's really not applicable to me; however, the problem you've identified is with the unions, not the costs, and the solution is not to decrease access to quality care in order to bring down costs so that it makes it easier to capitulate to the unions. The solution is the let costs to the tax-payer explode to the point that they stand up and recognize that the unions, and the politicians who pander to them, are the problem, and evict both from the public square. See Wisconson. "The problem is unions, not healthcare." Never said the unions weren't a problem oh smart one. As I said the unions would rather see staff cut to meet budget than contribute more to their benefit package -sorry if I did not motherf$%k them - I thought that statement spoke for itself. Again, this is a problem with the unions, rather than the costs of healthcare. Unions have no place negotiating service levels as leverage. Again, see Wisconson. Wouldn't you like it if our HC costs were more in line with the rest of the world? In the more immediate sense, I'd like to see you understand the factors that go into healthcare costs. I'd like you to understand what "costs" are lower, and what costs are not actually lower, but are reported as lower due to wonky accounting. But more importantly, what I want to access to the best medical technology in the world from the world best doctors, and I want it when I want it, on demand, without waiting. And no, I don't mind paying for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I can only speak from my experience......and yours is....? Working directly with the State Treasurer to conduct the largest pension unwinds in state history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 You are gonna love this.....the district hires a law firm specializing in such matters. Think about....school board members serve for their version of the public good....everyone had full time jobs...and to be of benefit it takes quite a bit of time....just to add value to the conversation. Much of the budget is boiler plate and is simply cut and pasted from year to year so the brass tacks are "step raises" which are automatics for years served and further accreditation. The other budget elements are the district contribution to retirement fund (they send you a bill - pray for a good stock market). NYS has for the most part, done a good job in keeping this adequately funded - Illinois not so much. Want to blame someone in Illinois? Blame your legislators.....its just math. The other element is health care. In my 6 years ending last year HC costs went up about 74 percent....and the only negotition hinge was how much teachers contribute. NYS has wonderful laws limiting negotiation so if there is no contract the teachers operate under the terms of the old one.....so why would the union ever concede anything? So the current situation to change things is very limited.....you can bring your "don't tread on me flag" with you but its not going to get you far. My personal view is Cuomo has set the stage for the voters to finally get pissed enough to force legislators to change the ability to negotiate. With the tax cap already over every year with step raises and benefit contribution escalation.....almost every district is now in the business of cutting scope every year. The Cuomo tax cap is like a boa constrictor squeezing each district....the pain is about to become very acute. It is upto the voters to change the game. My thoughts on HC are simple....you look at budgets and there sky rocketing costs coupled now with the tax cap and it reality is hitting home. The all up costs of a teacher are over 2x their salary. I stared at this algorythm for 6 years. Forgive typos. Ipad! What type of national health care do you think would save the nation money and be feasible? Every kid should receive an education instructing in math, science, US history, economics and household finance, and the english language; and that's it. The educational system did not need to take over for the former private apprenticeship system, which yeilded better results. It also has no business dealing in arts, music, and sports. see Wisconson. That's horrible. Sports were and are such a part of school that I couldn't even imagine them not being there. Sports teaches young people so many life skills that it is just as important as the academic subject. Hard work, team work, how to lose gracefully--Tom??--dedication, fair play and fitness. I suppose Music and art are important, too, but I just know sports first hand help so many kids. not to mention it gets a lot of kids into the schools and learning. Many probably wouldn't even go if they didn't play sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 What type of national health care do you think would save the nation money and be feasible? That's horrible. Sports were and are such a part of school that I couldn't even imagine them not being there. Sports teaches young people so many life skills that it is just as important as the academic subject. Hard work, team work, how to lose gracefully--Tom??--dedication, fair play and fitness. I suppose Music and art are important, too, but I just know sports first hand help so many kids. not to mention it gets a lot of kids into the schools and learning. Many probably wouldn't even go if they didn't play sports. Although I actually agree generally with your post I can't help but point out that you certainly did learn how to lose, but never got the graceful part down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) That's horrible. Sports were and are such a part of school that I couldn't even imagine them not being there. Sports teaches young people so many life skills that it is just as important as the academic subject. Hard work, team work, how to lose gracefully--Tom??--dedication, fair play and fitness. I suppose Music and art are important, too, but I just know sports first hand help so many kids. not to mention it gets a lot of kids into the schools and learning. Many probably wouldn't even go if they didn't play sports. Sports are great. I, myself, played both baseball and football all the way through college. I just don't believe they should be administered through the public education system. Private feeder systems, funded by the corporations who depend on them, as have developed in other countries, would arrise to fill in the gaps. Further, this is not a new idea, and efforts in this direction are being spearheaded by organizations like MLS and MLB, who seek to strengthen domestic interests in their sports, and don't feel the education system does nearly enough in that regard. The sports academy models have been extraordinarily succesful internationally. Why not here? Edited March 18, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I suppose Music and art are important, too, but I just know sports first hand help so many kids. music, art, wood & metal shop, home ec, theater, etc. all of them have value, and although they should for the most part remain as electives, should still be accessable to those students that wish to pursue them. I hate seeing any of them eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 music, art, wood & metal shop, home ec, theater, etc. all of them have value, and although they should for the most part remain as electives, should still be accessable to those students that wish to pursue them. I hate seeing any of them eliminated. The private apprenticeship system was far more successful that the public offerings we see today; and has largely disappeared due to a pulic sector take-over. I believe that these areas would be strengthened by removal from public curriculum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The private apprenticeship system was far more successful that the public offerings we see today; and has largely disappeared due to a pulic sector take-over. I believe that these areas would be strengthened by removal from public curriculum. I'm completely unaware of any such alternative offerings either here in Austin, or that may have existed in the Williamsville area back in my school days. many children (myself included) never had any exposure to things like instruction in art, symphonic orchestra, and the like outside of school. I did play football in little league, so I would agree that some sports are accessable to children. if such things could be moved outside of school and wouldn't cost a small fortune to enroll each child, then I'd be all for it. I won't try to make any arguements that schools should suffer academically in favor of purpetuating elective courses, but the training I received from grade school through high school in both art and music were huge in helping to mold me into the person I am today, and I shudder to think of what my life would be like without having been properly educated in either field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm completely unaware of any such alternative offerings either here in Austin, or that may have existed in the Williamsville area back in my school days. many children (myself included) never had any exposure to things like instruction in art, symphonic orchestra, and the like outside of school. I did play football in little league, so I would agree that some sports are accessable to children. if such things could be moved outside of school and wouldn't cost a small fortune to enroll each child, then I'd be all for it. I won't try to make any arguements that schools should suffer academically in favor of purpetuating elective courses, but the training I received from grade school through high school in both art and music were huge in helping to mold me into the person I am today, and I shudder to think of what my life would be like without having been properly educated in either field. You never had instruction in them outside of school, because the public sector took them over. The public sector becomes a near monopoly on services wherever they insert themselves. As examples, little league and pop-warner generate far greater involvment than school teams do; but wouldn't exist if elementary schools offered teams which made participation exclusionary, and as such, you'd have a far lower rate of participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Sports are great. I, myself, played both baseball and football all the way through college. I just don't believe they should be administered through the public education system. Private feeder systems, funded by the corporations who depend on them, as have developed in other countries, would arrise to fill in the gaps. Further, this is not a new idea, and efforts in this direction are being spearheaded by organizations like MLS and MLB, who seek to strengthen domestic interests in their sports, and don't feel the education system does nearly enough in that regard. The sports academy models have been extraordinarily succesful internationally. Why not here? Why change? I don't understand why anyone would want to take this out of schools? What is the point? Just try try and hurt public education for ideological reasons music, art, wood & metal shop, home ec, theater, etc. all of them have value, and although they should for the most part remain as electives, should still be accessable to those students that wish to pursue them. I hate seeing any of them eliminated. I agree, its just sports that are closest to my heart, I guess. A musician would see things differently I imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why change? I don't understand why anyone would want to take this out of schools? What is the point? Just try try and hurt public education for ideological reasons Because it's cheaper for the tax-payer, would largely be paid for by businesses, would be far more inclusive and cast a wider participation net, has been far more effective in other countries at achieving all of those goals, and, ultimately, produces a better product. So, if your goals are higher inclusion and wider participation, better delievery and service, cheaper administration, and a better product: then my suggestion is the proven model for success; and is already being advocated for by MLB and MLS If you're opposed, you've tethered yourself to a less effective system, primarily because you favor government involvment in those arenas, and that makes you an ideologue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Because it's cheaper for the tax-payer, would largely be paid for by businesses, would be far more inclusive and cast a wider participation net, has been far more effective in other countries at achieving all of those goals, and, ultimately, produces a better product. So, if your goals are higher inclusion and wider participation, better delievery and service, cheaper administration, and a better product: then my suggestion is the proven model for success; and is already being advocated for by MLB and MLS If you're opposed, you've tethered yourself to a less effective system, primarily because you favor government involvment in those arenas, and that makes you an ideologue. You would be lynched in Texas for a proposal like this. No high school football? Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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