Ideology Over Results, A Liberal Tradition

[Tiberius]

Hardly.

 

The article is a pile of dog****,

Which one? GOP Thomas Sowell propaganda or the other one?

[TH3]

Which one? GOP Thomas Sowell propaganda or the other one?

 

Exactly! Whether you want to believe it. .. I am no lib.....but for the most part the GOP is completely detached from facts, evidence, reality these dsys. A link from a right wing propaganda machine is hardly cause for worthy conversation.

[OCinBuffalo]

Exactly! Whether you want to believe it. .. I am no lib.....but for the most part the GOP is completely detached from facts, evidence, reality these dsys. A link from a right wing propaganda machine is hardly cause for worthy conversation.

Yeah? Here's how we determine who is living in reality, and who is not. Answer the f'ing questions that follow, and answer them yes or no. You want to prove you are empirical? Here's your chance:

 

1. Do the insurance plans that have been prescribed by Obamacare, suck as insurance products?

 

2. Is there any, rational, non-political hack reason why the Keystone pipeline shouldn't be approved immediately?

 

3. Has Obama's "reset button" with Russia worked in any appreciable way?

 

4. Was Obama's decision to end the missle defense programs in Poland and The Chezh Republic a good one?

 

5. Is GITMO still open? (Extra credit: WHY is GITMO still open?)

 

6. Has The Stimulus worked in general?

 

7. Specifically, can you show me a single, properly defined, Keynesian multiplier that the Stimulus focused on, and got the standard, expected results?

 

8. Has Obama or his administration had anything at all to do with the observed, lowering cost of energy, due to increases in supply?

 

9. Has Obama faithfully enforced all the laws of this country, as per his responsibility?

 

10. Do we have the truth, or any action as a result, of the Benghazi (TERRORIST) attack?

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the answer key, for the empirical:

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. No

5. Yes (It's still open because the concept of closing it was never based in reality. Closing it was based in magical thinking, that said there was some other viable place to put the people there, like um...Disneyworld.)

6. No

7. No (If you could, you can get your Nobel Prize in economics, because not even Paul Krugman has been able to explain this one)

8. No

9. No

10. No

 

Now, if you have deviated from ANY of those answers: you are the one living in Neverland. Every single question and answer can be fully backed up. These questions and answers are EXACTLY where the right is, which is to say: They represent reality on each issue.

 

You are seriously deluding yourself if you think this isn't the case, and by all means, don't let me stop you: November is coming. Keep lying to yourself and others. This way, we are assured of taking the Senate, and if you keep lying to yourself, I like our 2016 chances as well.

Edited March 15, 2014 by OCinBuffalo

[3rdnlng]

Exactly! Whether you want to believe it. .. I am no lib.....but for the most part the GOP is completely detached from facts, evidence, reality these dsys. A link from a right wing propaganda machine is hardly cause for worthy conversation.

 

So, I would think that the vast majority of us here would agree that education is extremely important. Charter schools, for the most part do a better job of educating than public schools. They come out even better when compared to inner city schools. Are you for or against charter schools?

[Koko78]

5. Is GITMO still open? (Extra credit: WHY is GITMO still open?)

 

5. Yes (It's still open because the concept of closing it was never based in reality. Closing it was based in magical thinking, that said there was some other viable place to put the people there, like um...Disneyworld.)

 

Now you know the reason why the 8th Amendment was passed. That's too cruel a fate for even hardened jihadists.

[TH3]

 

Yeah? Here's how we determine who is living in reality, and who is not. Answer the f'ing questions that follow, and answer them yes or no. You want to prove you are empirical? Here's your chance:

 

1. Do the insurance plans that have been prescribed by Obamacare, suck as insurance products?

 

2. Is there any, rational, non-political hack reason why the Keystone pipeline shouldn't be approved immediately?

 

3. Has Obama's "reset button" with Russia worked in any appreciable way?

 

4. Was Obama's decision to end the missle defense programs in Poland and The Chezh Republic a good one?

 

5. Is GITMO still open? (Extra credit: WHY is GITMO still open?)

 

6. Has The Stimulus worked in general?

 

7. Specifically, can you show me a single, properly defined, Keynesian multiplier that the Stimulus focused on, and got the standard, expected results?

 

8. Has Obama or his administration had anything at all to do with the observed, lowering cost of energy, due to increases in supply?

 

9. Has Obama faithfully enforced all the laws of this country, as per his responsibility?

 

10. Do we have the truth, or any action as a result, of the Benghazi (TERRORIST) attack?

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the answer key, for the empirical:

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. No

5. Yes (It's still open because the concept of closing it was never based in reality. Closing it was based in magical thinking, that said there was some other viable place to put the people there, like um...Disneyworld.)

6. No

7. No (If you could, you can get your Nobel Prize in economics, because not even Paul Krugman has been able to explain this one)

8. No

9. No

10. No

 

Now, if you have deviated from ANY of those answers: you are the one living in Neverland. Every single question and answer can be fully backed up. These questions and answers are EXACTLY where the right is, which is to say: They represent reality on each issue.

 

You are seriously deluding yourself if you think this isn't the case, and by all means, don't let me stop you: November is coming. Keep lying to yourself and others. This way, we are assured of taking the Senate, and if you keep lying to yourself, I like our 2016 chances as well.

 

Who asks questions and then answers them......? That tinfoil hat must be getting tight.... Any rational proposals in there or just complaining about Obama......?

 

Edited March 16, 2014 by baskin

[3rdnlng]

Who asks questions and then answers them......? That tinfoil hat must be getting tight... . Any rational proposals in there or just complaining about Obama......?

 

I asked a simple question in post #24. Care to answer or are you afraid to commit?

[OCinBuffalo]

Who asks questions and then answers them......? That tinfoil hat must be getting tight... . Any rational proposals in there or just complaining about Obama......?

Who's too chickenshit to back up his "Rs aren't dealing with reality" charge?

 

I just gave you a reality barometer, and then I gave you the answers.

 

I'm trying to help you get your head on straight, dumbass.

[TH3]

So, I would think that the vast majority of us here would agree that education is extremely important. Charter schools, for the most part do a better job of educating than public schools. They come out even better when compared to inner city schools. Are you for or against charter schools?

 

I am not "against" charter schools - but don't think they are the "answer". I was on a suburban Erie County School board for two terms - 6 years - and can offer the following:

 

Unions are a hindrance and add cost - but they are not the primary reason for poor school performance. In NYS the "union" is especially acute right now because of the tax levy cap. Districts are essentially held to the cap, state aid is going down, budget have been tight already - therefore there are two paths - get union concessions on contributions, pay steps, etc - or cut teachers and scope of offerings. The district has no choice but to cut scope of offerings. Until the VOTERS tire of this - this trend will continue.

 

The primary cause of poor school performance is the demographics of the students - that is all. Charter schools, school vouchers etc will enable a small percentage of students to get a better situation - but the underlying problem is not solved - students simply not prepared, or capable of school performance.

 

The City of Buffalo spends inordinate amounts of money trying to be better parents to the students - breakfast, lunch, discipline, attendance etc - but it doesn't work - as seen in the results. Swap City teachers for Clarence teachers - my gut says student performance stays the same,

 

The entire school structure needs to be rethought - students need to be ability tested in late middle school - not all kids should be on a college track - this is what Europe does and it works well.

 

Schools cannot make up for poor student demographics.

 

Look around the world - the best countries have one thing in common - strong public schools. I for the most think that public education is doing a good to very good job - except for the inner cities.

 

If you really want to help school districts and cost escalation - the US has to lower our health care costs.

 

Who's too chickenshit to back up his "Rs aren't dealing with reality" charge?

 

I just gave you a reality barometer, and then I gave you the answers.

 

I'm trying to help you get your head on straight, dumbass.

 

If I thought there was a reasonable conversation ahead - I would participate - but why would you want to converse when you already have all the answers and I am a dumb ass.

[TakeYouToTasker]

I am not "against" charter schools - but don't think they are the "answer". I was on a suburban Erie County School board for two terms - 6 years - and can offer the following:

 

Unions are a hindrance and add cost - but they are not the primary reason for poor school performance. In NYS the "union" is especially acute right now because of the tax levy cap. Districts are essentially held to the cap, state aid is going down, budget have been tight already - therefore there are two paths - get union concessions on contributions, pay steps, etc - or cut teachers and scope of offerings. The district has no choice but to cut scope of offerings. Until the VOTERS tire of this - this trend will continue.

 

The primary cause of poor school performance is the demographics of the students - that is all. Charter schools, school vouchers etc will enable a small percentage of students to get a better situation - but the underlying problem is not solved - students simply not prepared, or capable of school performance.

 

The City of Buffalo spends inordinate amounts of money trying to be better parents to the students - breakfast, lunch, discipline, attendance etc - but it doesn't work - as seen in the results. Swap City teachers for Clarence teachers - my gut says student performance stays the same,

 

The entire school structure needs to be rethought - students need to be ability tested in late middle school - not all kids should be on a college track - this is what Europe does and it works well.

 

Schools cannot make up for poor student demographics.

 

Look around the world - the best countries have one thing in common - strong public schools. I for the most think that public education is doing a good to very good job - except for the inner cities.

 

If you really want to help school districts and cost escalation - the US has to lower our health care costs.

 

 

 

If I thought there was a reasonable conversation ahead - I would participate - but why would you want to converse when you already have all the answers and I am a dumb ass.

How can you, in a single breath, both properly identify the problem (a demographic that doesn't value education, and doesn't parent well in regards to education), note that schools spend billions of dollars trying to be parents to the students ineffectively, suggest that the government should dictate the career path of all individuals the school system educates, and then tie it, somehow, to healthcare spending?

 

Mind...

 

!@#$ing...

 

Blown...

Edited March 17, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker

[Tiberius]

How can you, in a single breath, both propery identify the problem (a demographic that doesn't value education, and doesn't parent well in regards to education), note that schools spend billions of dollars trying to be parents to the students ineffectively, suggest that the government should dictate the career path of all individuals the school system educates, and then tie it, somehow, to healthcare spending?

 

Mind...

 

!@#$ing...

 

Blown...

*sigh*

 

You blew your own mind by totally missing his point

[TakeYouToTasker]

*sigh*

 

You blew your own mind by totally missing his point

Why don't you, then, walk us through what his point was.

[TH3]

Why don't you, then, walk us through what his point was.

 

God, you guys have short fuses and are sooooo sure of yourselves - but I am sure you have school board experience like me so..... I was asked if I was for or against charter schools. I think my answer outlines that question - if you would calm the f%$k down. Charter schools are fine- but are not the "answer". Schools cannot make up the deficit that these kids bring to the table and charter schools only create a better place for SOME kids.

 

I suggest that schools/parents/students SHOULD identify achievable careers for kids. Not all students are college capable and we should not spend 4 years of high school working toward that end. In Europe - kids not on a college path pick a trade and spend 4-6 years learning that trade - come out and are capable, productive, taxpaying citizens.

 

My point about health care is this: It is an all encompassing issue that we should all have a sane - grown up - conversation about. We pay over 2x per person what every other industrialized country pays. So instead of having 9-10 percent of GDP going to HC we have 17-19 percent. This existed before the ACA and I do not know what effect the ACA will have - but I am sure it will not get us into the range of everyone else.

 

If our HC costs were on par with the rest of the world - our federal deficit would be cured for now and moving forward - and - after having worked on a school board for 6 years - I can tell you the #1 issue is health care costs - not charter schools, not unions, not crayon colors or school lunches or creationism. Our inability to control HC costs cripples budgets and now is saliently reducing the scope and the performance of our schools.

 

Everything - everything in our country - would be better if we had a different and better health care funding, cost and delivery structure.

 

FYI - I voted for Gary Johnson - so you know where I stand politically. Our land has a number of issues - and many of them are VERY complex and not suited to one dimensional answers.

 

BTW - I cannot say what the answer is for school districts like Buffalo - its is a shame though because education is the one sure answer to demographic mobility.

Edited March 17, 2014 by baskin

[3rdnlng]

God, you guys have short fuses and are sooooo sure of yourselves - but I am sure you have school board experience like me so..... I was asked if I was for or against charter schools. I think my answer outlines that question - if you would calm the f%$k down. Charter schools are fine- but are not the "answer". Schools cannot make up the deficit that these kids bring to the table and charter schools only create a better place for SOME kids.

 

I suggest that schools/parents/students SHOULD identify achievable careers for kids. Not all students are college capable and we should not spend 4 years of high school working toward that end. In Europe - kids not on a college path pick a trade and spend 4-6 years learning that trade - come out and are capable, productive, taxpaying citizens.

 

My point about health care is this: It is an all encompassing issue that we should all have a sane - grown up - conversation about. We pay over 2x per person what every other industrialized country pays. So instead of having 9-10 percent of GDP going to HC we have 17-19 percent. This existed before the ACA and I do not know what effect the ACA will have - but I am sure it will not get us into the range of everyone else.

 

If our HC costs were on par with the rest of the world - our federal deficit would be cured for now and moving forward - and - after having worked on a school board for 6 years - I can tell you the #1 issue is health care costs - not charter schools, not unions, not crayon colors or school lunches or creationism. Our inability to control HC costs cripples budgets and now is saliently reducing the scope and the performance of our schools.

 

Everything - everything in our country - would be better if we had a different and better health care funding, cost and delivery structure.

 

FYI - I voted for Gary Johnson - so you know where I stand politically. Our land has a number of issues - and many of them are VERY complex and not suited to one dimensional answers.

 

BTW - I cannot say what the answer is for school districts like Buffalo - its is a shame though because education is the one sure answer to demographic mobility.

 

Well, you freely admit that charter schools make it better for some kids. In your opinion, what is it that makes them better?

[TH3]

Well, you freely admit that charter schools make it better for some kids. In your opinion, what is it that makes them better?

 

Charter schools have some leeway in structure - but - but - without doing any research I would look first at that the demographic selection of the students. More concerned parents, better students ....

 

I was fortunate to serve in a district with mostly middle class+ kids with solid family foundations. Our district performed very well on a cost/performance basis. Our struggles are/were mostly budgeting - and I can say the big pinch is coming.

 

In NY right now - you will see a steady constriction of offerings. The step raises alone typically will eat up the tax levy cap let alone benefit (retirement and health care) growth. So without doing anything - most school districts are over the tax cap every year - already...

 

It is difficult to negotiate with the union - the union would rather see positions cut than contribute more to HC or retirement (typical health care contributions are 14-16 percent).

 

That is why I get back to HC costs - if they were half - like the rest of the world - that would provide quite a bit of room.

 

As one can see....ideology is fun to talk about - but at the end of the day - societal policy is incredibly complicated and integrated and rarely lends itself to simple answers.

 

Charter schools could be "seeds" of promise - the harder part is reloading the whole system.

 

Just my 2 cents....take it as some insider or toss

Edited March 17, 2014 by baskin

[TakeYouToTasker]

God, you guys have short fuses and are sooooo sure of yourselves - but I am sure you have school board experience like me so..... I was asked if I was for or against charter schools. I think my answer outlines that question - if you would calm the f%$k down. Charter schools are fine- but are not the "answer". Schools cannot make up the deficit that these kids bring to the table and charter schools only create a better place for SOME kids.

Here's the truth:

 

As much as you may not like it, there will always be a drastically underserved portion of the children in our nation, as the things that lead to that underservicing are culture centric, and are reinforced systemically. Parents that either aren't around, aren't involved, or don't value education can't be remedied by governemnt plans. The schools that these kids attend, en masse, are reflective of the value that is placed on education by these communities. The teachers babysit. The students don't attend classes, and when they do, are largely disruptive. There are metal detectors at the entrances, and the tax dollars to support the infrastructure are non-existent, and as such the buildings themselves are dilapidated.

 

So what, then, of the island minority of those students in these districts whose parents do value education, and do want to get involved? This is where charter schools play such a valuable role. They give these students of parents with little means, but who do value an education, an avenue to exceptionalism. Charter schools aren't intended to fix the school system, they are designed to help the underserved who find them truely valuable.

 

I suggest that schools/parents/students SHOULD identify achievable careers for kids. Not all students are college capable and we should not spend 4 years of high school working toward that end. In Europe - kids not on a college path pick a trade and spend 4-6 years learning that trade - come out and are capable, productive, taxpaying citizens.

I assume, that if one includes in thesis' central theme, the importance of becoming a tax-paying citizen, then one might find it desirable to create a government bureaucracy which will pre-determine what every individual's future holds; and will restrict education resources based on "tests" that are administered after elementary school. I do not find this to be a desirable outcome.

 

Nevermind the fact that we only get to this point by ignoring the fact that forced vocational training, as opposed to tradtional schooling, still doesn't address the root cause. Are these parents, who have culturally rejected the improtance of education, now somehow more likely to embrace education now that their children will be learning how to sweat pipes instead of trigonometry? I hardly think so.

 

My point about health care is this: It is an all encompassing issue that we should all have a sane - grown up - conversation about. We pay over 2x per person what every other industrialized country pays. So instead of having 9-10 percent of GDP going to HC we have 17-19 percent. This existed before the ACA and I do not know what effect the ACA will have - but I am sure it will not get us into the range of everyone else.

Why not address military spending? Or entitlements? Or wasteful and redundant departments and their entire budgets?

 

Why gloss over why or healthcare costs more? Or what those expenses are?

 

Or more to the point, stop treating healthcare costs like some magic bullet, which if we only could solve, we'll be living in utopia. This is not a thread devoted top healthcare. We already have that thread, or if you prefer, feel free to start another one, but don't conlate it with the issues being addressed here.

 

 

If our HC costs were on par with the rest of the world - our federal deficit would be cured for now and moving forward - and - after having worked on a school board for 6 years - I can tell you the #1 issue is health care costs - not charter schools, not unions, not crayon colors or school lunches or creationism. Our inability to control HC costs cripples budgets and now is saliently reducing the scope and the performance of our schools.

What in the seven hells do private healthcare costs have to do with public budgets? What you're talking about is public employees contribution levels, which have nothing to do with healthcare costs, and everything to do with unions.

 

The problem is unions, not healthcare.

 

Everything - everything in our country - would be better if we had a different and better health care funding, cost and delivery structure.

This is absurd, but again, not for this thread.

 

FYI - I voted for Gary Johnson - so you know where I stand politically. Our land has a number of issues - and many of them are VERY complex and not suited to one dimensional answers.

 

BTW - I cannot say what the answer is for school districts like Buffalo - its is a shame though because education is the one sure answer to demographic mobility.

And again, it doesn't matter what kind of system you implement if the people you implement it for don't value it, and won't use it.

Edited March 17, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker

[3rdnlng]

Charter schools have some leeway in structure - but - but - without doing any research I would look first at that the demographic selection of the students. More concerned parents, better students ....

 

I was fortunate to serve in a district with mostly middle class+ kids with solid family foundations. Our district performed very well on a cost/performance basis. Our struggles are/were mostly budgeting - and I can say the big pinch is coming.

 

In NY right now - you will see a steady constriction of offerings. The step raises alone typically will eat up the tax levy cap let alone benefit (retirement and health care) growth. So without doing anything - most school districts are over the tax cap every year - already...

 

It is difficult to negotiate with the union - the union would rather see positions cut than contribute more to HC or retirement (typical health care contributions are 14-16 percent).

 

That is why I get back to HC costs - if they were half - like the rest of the world - that would provide quite a bit of room.

 

As one can see....ideology is fun to talk about - but at the end of the day - societal policy is incredibly complicated and integrated and rarely lends itself to simple answers.

 

Charter schools could be "seeds" of promise - the harder part is reloading the whole system.

 

Just my 2 cents....take it as some insider or toss

 

The basis of this thread was a Thomas Sowell column and in that column he was referring to inner city schools vs. charter schools in the same neighborhood. While I don't doubt that more concerned parents means better results, I don't think that is all of it. Otherwise it is a gigantic indictment of inner city parents. You have made it clear that you have some knowledge regarding school budgeting. Would you agree that the unions have the districts by the balls and really don't give two schits about the students?

[TH3]

The basis of this thread was a Thomas Sowell column and in that column he was referring to inner city schools vs. charter schools in the same neighborhood. While I don't doubt that more concerned parents means better results, I don't think that is all of it. Otherwise it is a gigantic indictment of inner city parents. You have made it clear that you have some knowledge regarding school budgeting. Would you agree that the unions have the districts by the balls and really don't give two schits about the students?

 

Let's separate the teachers and the unions....teachers I have found to be "for the kids"...the unions not so much - especially in NY where the laws handcuff the districts hands - I wouldn't say they don't give 2 about the students - they are there to negotiate for their members.

 

Don't get me wrong - I am not "pro" union. It was not the number one issue in our district - if the NY voters would elect people who would let districts negotiate...that would be good.

 

 

As far as Takeyoutasker: You are all over the place - but seeing as you are the smartest man in the room AND hold the earth up...I see you are busy...

• I am not against charter schools and I don't say that schools have the answers - nor should they - umm said that for the THIRD time.
  
• I would say 1/3 of kids don't belong in college, don't want to go to college and will end up in the trades - which actually pay very well. Why put them through 4 years of college prep to fail? - the government bureaucracy seems to be predetermining that every kid should go college prep - isn't this the same thing? Calm down - maybe the kid and his parents are picking a trade....not forcing anyone to do anything....
  
• "Why not address military spending? Or entitlements? Or wasteful and redundant departments and their entire budgets?" - We should!
  
• "This is absurd, but again, not for this thread". - Whatever...but seeing how smart you are....
  
• "What in the seven hells do private healthcare costs have to do with public budgets?" I am not talking about private HC costs - I am talking about my experience funding teachers HC - which by the way is delivered by the same private insurers as the private sector - so the costs are the same. Teachers contribute 7 percent in our district - NYS average is around 16 percent. You can compare that to what you contribute.
  
• "The problem is unions, not healthcare." Never said the unions weren't a problem oh smart one. As I said the unions would rather see staff cut to meet budget than contribute more to their benefit package -sorry if I did not motherf$%k them - I thought that statement spoke for itself.
  
• Wouldn't you like it if our HC costs were more in line with the rest of the world?
  

Edited March 17, 2014 by baskin

[TakeYouToTasker]

Let's separate the teachers and the unions....teachers I have found to be "for the kids"...the unions not so much - especially in NY where the laws handcuff the districts hands - I wouldn't say they don't give 2 about the students - they are there to negotiate for their members.

 

Don't get me wrong - I am not "pro" union. It was not the number one issue in our district - if the NY voters would elect people who would let districts negotiate...that would be good.

The teachers are more for the unions than they are for the kids.

[3rdnlng]

Let's separate the teachers and the unions....teachers I have found to be "for the kids"...the unions not so much - especially in NY where the laws handcuff the districts hands - I wouldn't say they don't give 2 about the students - they are there to negotiate for their members.

 

Don't get me wrong - I am not "pro" union. It was not the number one issue in our district - if the NY voters would elect people who would let districts negotiate...that would be good.

 

In NY, who actually does the negotiating for the school districts?