NoSaint Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 A couple quick comments --- Brandon is no marketing genius. To me, he's done the obvious, which is to expand the market for the team into Roch, Syr and Canada. He's fallen way short at doing what GB has done and that's what the team needs to do. On the profitability, agree 100%. A new owner can make more elsewhere. The question is whether an owner, who is inclined to keep the team in Buffalo, can be profitable. I think with the right stadium (a NEW ONE) and more creative marketing, it can. outside having back to back franchise QBs and having 3 different super bowl eras, is there something specific in green bay that you are referencing that the bills are completely missing the boat on?
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 A couple quick comments --- Brandon is no marketing genius. To me, he's done the obvious, which is to expand the market for the team into Roch, Syr and Canada. He's fallen way short at doing what GB has done and that's what the team needs to do. On the profitability, agree 100%. A new owner can make more elsewhere. The question is whether an owner, who is inclined to keep the team in Buffalo, can be profitable. I think with the right stadium (a NEW ONE) and more creative marketing, it can. The Bills were not previously allowed to market in Canada; the Bills argued for that. The regionalization may have seemed like a no brainer on paper but there were certain limitations that needed to be overcome. FWIW, Russ has a very strong reputation amongst executives in pro sports. The fact that the Bills have been able to generate the revenue that they have in that stadium and in the WNY market is pretty amazing. The fact that they are around the middle of the pack in sponsorship revenue is a pretty incredible feat. GB is an anomaly as they are owned by the community. That should be the model for all small markets in all sports but the reality is there is only 1 team that has that has it. I do agree that money can be made and they need to remain creative (and a new stadium). I worry a lot about that $24M escape option in year 7 of the lease.
Kellyto83TD Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Bottom line no way in hell the Bills spend anywhere near up to that much, they can't afford it.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Bottom line no way in hell the Bills spend anywhere near up to that much, they can't afford it. That kind of takes us back to the start of this conversation. The cap going up so quickly is not a good thing for the Bills and it can't be argued.
oman128 Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 the NFL should add 2 players to the active roster each year until we get to 60. 53 guys just isn't enough with all the injuries, and 45 on game day blows!
NoSaint Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 for perspective of how fast the sports revenues are growing... 160m would be a 400% jump in 20 years from the 40m in 1996 and just 10 years prior to that figure would be the at the time huge jump from 85m to 102m between 2005 and 2006 (when the last cba was signed) part of why i think its so hard for most fans to wrap their heads around a 10m safety, despite the fact that in a few years it may be the norm.
Mr. WEO Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) ALL revenue, shared or unshared, drives up the salary cap. TV deal equals about 2/3 of that revenue. Remains to be seen what the impact of the new TV deals is in that regard. This inequity necessitated the adoption of a 10% "tax" on the higher, unshared revenue generating teams in order to help defray the impact it has on the lower unshared revenue generating teams. GO BILLS!!! Unless there is a disproportionate increase in non shared revenue included in the increased cap(sudden sharp increase in luxury boxes in e few teams?) which we haven't heard of, not sure why the bills will suffer disproportionally. Edited March 7, 2014 by Mr. WEO
K-9 Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Unless there is a disproportionate increase in non shared revenue included in the increased (sudden sharp increase in luxury boxes in e few teams?) which we haven't heard of, not sure why the bills will suffer disproportionally. Not saying the Bills are "suffering." They, along with other lower revenue teams, pay a disproportionate percentage of revenues in player costs. Also, they, along with other lower revenue teams, see a rise in player costs because of increases in non-shared revenue generated by other teams. The league adopted a 10% tax on higher, non-shared revenue teams to address the disparity. I've been saying this since 2006. Like Forrest Gump when he got sick or running, I want to go home now. GO BILLS!!!
mrags Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I don't necessarily agree with all of this. The Bills marketing territory used o stop at the Canadian border and then was turned over to NFL Canada. Russ and the Bills fought to keep that as Bills money as it fell within the 75 mile radius and should not be split evenly. The Bills have ultimately been able to get into that market in a way that they could not previously. As far as frosting on the cake I am not sure what you mean. Should someone be happy profiting $100M when they could just as easily profit $200M? There is not 1 business person that I have ever encountered that thinks that way. The bottom line is that the Bills need to get creative in how they can continue to generate non shared revenue. They have been in the top 15 or so in local sponsorship which is incredible considering that there are no Fortune 500 companies. The people running the Bills on the business side are very strong and have strong reputations throughout the sports world despite what a lot of fans think. I have full confidence that they will continue to maximize the revenue that the market will allot. i will agree with much of this. Though I don't think what Russ did was pointless, I still feel much of the work was done for him. The NFL is the biggest game not only in town but in the country and possibly the world (except soccer in many countries). I get what you mean, no one would turn down an additional $100m (or whatever that actual number may be). What you say is true. But that doesn't mean that one can't survive here and wouldn't profit here. For someone like Jim Kelly for example, it would be more money than he's made in his lifetime, so it really depends on who your asking. Again, it goes back to who is in the conversation of buying the team when Ralph is gone. We've already heard from Galisano that he would do whatever possible to help keep the team in Buffalo and he's no slouch either. Then there's Jacobs moving back into town with Delaware North, Pegula, Trump with football and Kelly ties. The possibilities aren't exactly endless, but it's not like they aren't there. I do agree 100% that there needs to be more ways created to develop more income. Honestly, that's something that will be brought up with the new updates this season. Tailgating centers, updated NFL store, etc... Your correct that there aren't many corporate sponsors that provide help but your incorrect that there are no Fortune 500 companies here. Wegmans, Geico, Ingram Micro off the top of my head. I've worked at Ingram for years. At the time they were a $30Billion a year company. I guess because their main offices are in Santa Ana we don't get credit but I can assure you that the Williamsville office is the heart of the company and the amount of tickets, and suites that belong to not only Ingram but with their customers is far and above what you can imagine I'm sure. As far as future possibilities for money making ideas are more restaurant and shopping ideas in the stadium (much like Heinz Field). Maybe building hotels/shopping outside the stadium (much like Gillette). And naming rights. The average is over $2million a year but that factors in teams without naming rights, and many others that are at or near the end if their deals that are much smaller than what would happen in today's day in the NFL. http://www.leagueoffans.org/nflnamingrights.html I don't think Wegmans has the clout to name an NFL stadium, Ingram Micro isn't about that sort of thing. Geico is a reasonable option as is New Era which is located in the city of Buffalo as is Delaware North.
Robert Paulson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 here is where Buffalo has an advantage- the Ralph is paid for Dallas and Washington are paying a much bigger proportion of their revenues to pay for the stadiums they just built i would not expect to see a new stadium in Buffalo - only state provided updates to the Ralph
Like A Mofo Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 You want the Bills to keep up with the Joneses? Prepare to pay MUCH more for, tickets, parking, PSL licenses and everything else. Are you fans prepared to do that? To spend 'whatever it takes' to keep Roger's new NFL in your town?
mrags Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 here is where Buffalo has an advantage- the Ralph is paid for Dallas and Washington are paying a much bigger proportion of their revenues to pay for the stadiums they just built i would not expect to see a new stadium in Buffalo - only state provided updates to the Ralph this. Although jones may be proud of his monstrosity he calls a stadium, he's not loving the check that he has to sign every month to pay for it. Same goes for Snyder, and the Jets/Giants.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 i will agree with much of this. Though I don't think what Russ did was pointless, I still feel much of the work was done for him. The NFL is the biggest game not only in town but in the country and possibly the world (except soccer in many countries). I get what you mean, no one would turn down an additional $100m (or whatever that actual number may be). What you say is true. But that doesn't mean that one can't survive here and wouldn't profit here. For someone like Jim Kelly for example, it would be more money than he's made in his lifetime, so it really depends on who your asking. Again, it goes back to who is in the conversation of buying the team when Ralph is gone. We've already heard from Galisano that he would do whatever possible to help keep the team in Buffalo and he's no slouch either. Then there's Jacobs moving back into town with Delaware North, Pegula, Trump with football and Kelly ties. The possibilities aren't exactly endless, but it's not like they aren't there. I do agree 100% that there needs to be more ways created to develop more income. Honestly, that's something that will be brought up with the new updates this season. Tailgating centers, updated NFL store, etc... Your correct that there aren't many corporate sponsors that provide help but your incorrect that there are no Fortune 500 companies here. Wegmans, Geico, Ingram Micro off the top of my head. I've worked at Ingram for years. At the time they were a $30Billion a year company. I guess because their main offices are in Santa Ana we don't get credit but I can assure you that the Williamsville office is the heart of the company and the amount of tickets, and suites that belong to not only Ingram but with their customers is far and above what you can imagine I'm sure. As far as future possibilities for money making ideas are more restaurant and shopping ideas in the stadium (much like Heinz Field). Maybe building hotels/shopping outside the stadium (much like Gillette). And naming rights. The average is over $2million a year but that factors in teams without naming rights, and many others that are at or near the end if their deals that are much smaller than what would happen in today's day in the NFL. http://www.leagueoffans.org/nflnamingrights.html I don't think Wegmans has the clout to name an NFL stadium, Ingram Micro isn't about that sort of thing. Geico is a reasonable option as is New Era which is located in the city of Buffalo as is Delaware North. I am with you. I certainly believe that the Bills can be successful in WNY and there are really good candidates to take over. My point wasn't ever meant to be doom and gloom and I apologize if it came across that way. I was simply trying to explain why the cap going up so quickly is not ideal for Buffalo. It is by no means a death sentence. The Bills are full of smart people and have had the support of the county and state. They will continue to be smart and maximize their revenues. I have full confidence in all of that.
mrags Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 You want the Bills to keep up with the Joneses? Prepare to pay MUCH more for, tickets, parking, PSL licenses and everything else. Are you fans prepared to do that? To spend 'whatever it takes' to keep Roger's new NFL in your town? see above. That's only because these new Billion dollar stadiums have such a high price tag that you must or else. Now the Bills stadium is paid in full. The owners could continue to build on the foundation. Shopping centers, restaurants, game experiences, etc... All at a minimum cost and with help from the county and state and keep ticket prices and PSLs at a minimum. I am with you. I certainly believe that the Bills can be successful in WNY and there are really good candidates to take over. My point wasn't ever meant to be doom and gloom and I apologize if it came across that way. I was simply trying to explain why the cap going up so quickly is not ideal for Buffalo. It is by no means a death sentence. The Bills are full of smart people and have had the support of the county and state. They will continue to be smart and maximize their revenues. I have full confidence in all of that. this we can agree on.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I have been reading and thinking about this. And while i am worried about Buffalo keeping the Bills, at this rate of growth i find it hard to believe there are a lot of markets that could afford it. I get that Jerry and Dan S. and some of the other more lucrative guys do not have to worry about it, but gosh how many markets can afford a $200mil cap? It appears at this rate in the next 15 years we could be looking at that cap. These increases are far out pacing normal inflation. You think Cleveland, Pitt, Tampa, Jax, Minnie, even Tenn can afford those figures? It appears as iff the NFL is letting the cap be like the housing market 10 years ago. At some point it is going to come crashing down i fear. You have to have enough teams to make it worth watching. Or Maybe the NFL wants to condense the league?
Kellyto83TD Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 That kind of takes us back to the start of this conversation. The cap going up so quickly is not a good thing for the Bills and it can't be argued. You are correct Bud. Buffalo just can't handle that period. I have been reading and thinking about this. And while i am worried about Buffalo keeping the Bills, at this rate of growth i find it hard to believe there are a lot of markets that could afford it. I get that Jerry and Dan S. and some of the other more lucrative guys do not have to worry about it, but gosh how many markets can afford a $200mil cap? It appears at this rate in the next 15 years we could be looking at that cap. These increases are far out pacing normal inflation. You think Cleveland, Pitt, Tampa, Jax, Minnie, even Tenn can afford those figures? It appears as iff the NFL is letting the cap be like the housing market 10 years ago. At some point it is going to come crashing down i fear. You have to have enough teams to make it worth watching. Or Maybe the NFL wants to condense the league? It has been my thought for a few years now you will see 4 teams fold minimum in the next say 5 or so years, but rosters on the remaining 28 expanded.
RealityCheck Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 There is one thing not being discussed when it comes to revenue. The revenue comes from the fans. Given the economic environment and near frozen wages and escalating public/private debt, the NFL as a league will see some interesting challenges. There is a tremendous amount of unrealized inflation that will arrive sooner than later. Fans are fiscally tapped out and fan's credit cards can't fund the league forever. Regardless of how much or little the Bills make, there really is no place for them to go. A new owner purchasing the team will spend a fortune acquiring new fans in a new zip code not in Western NY, and they would have the burden of financing a new stadium. The loyalty of the Buffalo community would cost a fortune and many years to build in another community, and that is without massive debt. The Bills are here to stay, I find it strange that few people accept that since it is what we all want. I think that it is great how many fans are into the financial end of the NFL, but projecting future revenue while ignoring the complete economic environment that it dwells in is a fruitless endeavor. The real question is, what is YOUR spending cap on the NFL? For the Sunday Ticket crowd, how much is too much? Will you spend $400 in 2016? $500 for Sunday Ticket? How much are you willing to spend on PSLs? These are the real questions.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I have been reading and thinking about this. And while i am worried about Buffalo keeping the Bills, at this rate of growth i find it hard to believe there are a lot of markets that could afford it. I get that Jerry and Dan S. and some of the other more lucrative guys do not have to worry about it, but gosh how many markets can afford a $200mil cap? It appears at this rate in the next 15 years we could be looking at that cap. These increases are far out pacing normal inflation. You think Cleveland, Pitt, Tampa, Jax, Minnie, even Tenn can afford those figures? It appears as iff the NFL is letting the cap be like the housing market 10 years ago. At some point it is going to come crashing down i fear. You have to have enough teams to make it worth watching. Or Maybe the NFL wants to condense the league? Interesting perspective ATL. I think that you are probably right but those dominoes would fall at a later date. The Bills along with St. Louis, Jacksonville and Oakland will probably be the 1st markets impacted. You will probably see negotiations to tweak this or that but it is certainly building towards the haves and have nots. It's ironic in that the foundation of the NFL's success is the exact opposite; you are only as strong as your weakest link. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
GA BILLS FAN Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 outside having back to back franchise QBs and having 3 different super bowl eras, is there something specific in green bay that you are referencing that the bills are completely missing the boat on? Start by looking at what they've done with Lambeau Field. It is a destination with restaurants, tours, gift shops. They decided to think big. Meanwhile Russ continues to think small. Small won't work long term. Bills need a new stadium or a complete redo of the Ralph. Second, look around their website, they are constantly creating new promotional products and events, for example the "Tailgate Tour". Third, they've done a phenomenal job connecting Packer fans all over the country back to the team. Sure it helps that they win, but that's for another thread.
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 Start by looking at what they've done with Lambeau Field. It is a destination with restaurants, tours, gift shops. They decided to think big. Meanwhile Russ continues to think small. Small won't work long term. Bills need a new stadium or a complete redo of the Ralph. Second, look around their website, they are constantly creating new promotional products and events, for example the "Tailgate Tour". Third, they've done a phenomenal job connecting Packer fans all over the country back to the team. Sure it helps that they win, but that's for another thread. What small thinking are you referring to? They sold rights to 5 regular season games to another city for $72M! The Bills are pretty progressive. They do not own the land or the stadium so I don't know hat good a bunch of restaurants in Orchard Park would do? I think that the Bills organization has done a lot well with the hand that they are dealt and are often unfairly criticized IMO.
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