Flutie7Flakes Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Recently heard that Saints placed NON-EXCLUSIVE Franchise Tag on Jimmy Graham. This means that a team has to: A) Work out an agreed contract with his agent & B) Give up (2) First Round draft picks. Why isn't this something we're discussing? It's been years since the Bills have had a solid TE threat (Riemersma? No idea who our best all-time is...), most teams having 2 better on-field TEs than our Starter! To me, this seems downright silly that we're not at least discussing this....(2014 #9 pick & a 2016 or 2017 1st Rounder for the best TE in the NFL??). This would be a strong commitment to EJ & the offense, especially with the depth at OL in this year's draft class. Wouldn't mind seeing us commit if Mack is unavailable at #9, let Marrone's expertise in Offensive Lineman give us a solid contributor later on in the draft. Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
SmokinES3 Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 It's an interesting observation. I don't know about two first round picks though. Seems way too steep for any tight end. Not to mention the mega dollar deal he will get, and the fact we'd have to overpay on top of it.
jletha Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 It is being discussed. Look at the list of threads on the front page, Jimmy Graham is one of them
Luxy312 Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Terrible idea. This team has far too many needs to trade 2 first round picks.
Dragonborn10 Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Wrong it is a great idea. This team needs a dynamic TE. The success rate of a first round pick is at best 50/50. Graham is a superstar. This team needs to win now. Not worry about a first round pick in 2015.
Mopreme Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Terrible. His numbers are inflated due to the system and Brees at QB.
ExWNYer Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 1) Nobody gives up two 1st Round picks to sign a player. The Bills would have to negotiate a trade with New Orleans. For example, a 1st & 3rd this year and a 3rd next year. 2) New Orleans won't trade him. 3) The Bills would more than likely have to pay him like one of the highest paid WRs (not TEs) in the league to play in Buffalo. 4) Unless the Bills blew all other offers out of the water, why would Graham even consider signing with a team with an unsettled QB situation like theirs? 5) Whaley is from the Steelers school of "we don't overpay for free agents (ours or theirs)". 6) It's not happening (see 1 - 5 above). 7) Next topic...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Why do people get so married to the term "2 first round picks" and think that is too expensive for a player of the caliber of Jimmy Graham. Lets look at what this REALLY is. If Jimmy Graham was available (as he is now, a proven elite player) in this draft, he would undoubtedly be the #1 pick in the draft. He is one of the 10 most talented offensive players in the league, and arguably top 5. So lets see how this plays out. Lets say a team like the Bills who has this years 9th pick in the draft wanted Jimmy. If Jimmy Graham was there at #9 we would use that pick on him without question. He is a proven ELITE talent and creates mismatches that few players can match at any position. At pick #9 we would have stolen what should have been the #1 overall pick in draft as he has no uncertainty, he is a young player on a path that could take him to the HOF and could be one of the most productive to ever play the game when he's done. So we are not giving up 2 first rounders...we are choosing to use our first rounder on a known commodity and an ELITE talent. The only thing we are giving up is the single future first round pick. Given that first round picks bust out at 50%, the odds are the 2 #1 picks we gave would only equate to one quality player. And there is no guarantee that the one player would even be an Elite talent...he could end up being another Whitner, solid player with holes, but no Jimmy Graham. Factor in that teams every year give up this much and more to move up in drafts for an unknown commodity who is nothing more than a good prospect with potential and no idea if there will be an equal return on investment. Teams risk more than the 2 #1 picks year after year in trade ups for guys they have no idea if they will pan out, and even if they do, how many will ever reach the Elite levels of a special and rare player like a Jimmy Graham who is the #1 player at his respective position by a lot? Plus odds are, he would be the best player out of both this draft and next years given the rarity of players that dominate their position to the level he does. So at the end of the day, you are not losing 2 first round picks, you are using one to draft an established Elite player and giving a future pick of unknown value for that right. Pretty fair price to pay for a guy who is far and away the best at his position, a game changer, a guy who dominates, and a guy who creates mismatches every single play. Factor a team like Seattle, who already has a championship caliber roster and low end first rounders, and this is a slam dunk to them. I would not be surprised at all to see someone willing to pay the price, and to be honest, I would love the bills to do so. I love the idea of a Mack at #9, but a guy like Jimmy Grahams caliber is so rare, that I would rather take the slam dunk in Graham with our #9 pick and give up next years first to do so. This team is NOT that far off. We lost a lot of games literally by a play or two and had red zone struggles. He makes the run game better, Stevie/Woods/Goodwin better, and the QB better just being on the field. I whole heartedly believe this team is a playoff team with Graham on the roster (assuming not another year of QB injury carousel) as having him could have changed several of the losses we had last year alone. Add in a more experienced and healthy EJ, and this kid could be the piece that lets us break the playoff drought. Edited March 5, 2014 by Alphadawg7
marauderswr80 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Keep your 2 first rounders draft Eric Ebron, problem solved for 4 years.....
Alphadawg7 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Keep your 2 first rounders draft Eric Ebron, problem solved for 4 years..... Well then you're not keeping you're two first rounders. You have to use one on Ebron who will go in first round. Again giving up one extra first round pick to make sure the TE you acquire is the best in the NFL isn't much
NoSaint Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Why do people get so married to the term "2 first round picks" and think that is too expensive for a player of the caliber of Jimmy Graham. Lets look at what this REALLY is. If Jimmy Graham was available (as he is now, a proven elite player) in this draft, he would undoubtedly be the #1 pick in the draft. He is one of the 10 most talented offensive players in the league, and arguably top 5. So lets see how this plays out. Lets say a team like the Bills who has this years 9th pick in the draft wanted Jimmy. If Jimmy Graham was there at #9 we would use that pick on him without question. He is a proven ELITE talent and creates mismatches that few players can match at any position. At pick #9 we would have stolen what should have been the #1 overall pick in draft as he has no uncertainty, he is a young player on a path that could take him to the HOF and could be one of the most productive to ever play the game when he's done. So we are not giving up 2 first rounders...we are choosing to use our first rounder on a known commodity and an ELITE talent. The only thing we are giving up is the single future first round pick. Given that first round picks bust out at 50%, the odds are the 2 #1 picks we gave would only equate to one quality player. And there is no guarantee that the one player would even be an Elite talent...he could end up being another Whitner, solid player with holes, but no Jimmy Graham. Factor in that teams every year give up this much and more to move up in drafts for an unknown commodity who is nothing more than a good prospect with potential and no idea if there will be an equal return on investment. Teams risk more than the 2 #1 picks year after year in trade ups for guys they have no idea if they will pan out, and even if they do, how many will ever reach the Elite levels of a special and rare player like a Jimmy Graham who is the #1 player at his respective position by a lot? Plus odds are, he would be the best player out of both this draft and next years given the rarity of players that dominate their position to the level he does. So at the end of the day, you are not losing 2 first round picks, you are using one to draft an established Elite player and giving a future pick of unknown value for that right. Pretty fair price to pay for a guy who is far and away the best at his position, a game changer, a guy who dominates, and a guy who creates mismatches every single play. Factor a team like Seattle, who already has a championship caliber roster and low end first rounders, and this is a slam dunk to them. I would not be surprised at all to see someone willing to pay the price, and to be honest, I would love the bills to do so. I love the idea of a Mack at #9, but a guy like Jimmy Grahams caliber is so rare, that I would rather take the slam dunk in Graham with our #9 pick and give up next years first to do so. This team is NOT that far off. We lost a lot of games literally by a play or two and had red zone struggles. He makes the run game better, Stevie/Woods/Goodwin better, and the QB better just being on the field. I whole heartedly believe this team is a playoff team with Graham on the roster (assuming not another year of QB injury carousel) as having him could have changed several of the losses we had last year alone. Add in a more experienced and healthy EJ, and this kid could be the piece that lets us break the playoff drought. Youre neglecting the money part. You have 12m per year for the next 5 years and 2 first round picks- do you want to walk away with jimmy graham (a very valuable option, no doubt) or 2 first round picks (say ej/kiko and Sammy Watkins) AND manny Lawson and Alan branch? When you spend that pick on a vet it costs the pick and the vet you could use the cap space on
Dragonborn10 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 While I generally agree you are in essence only giving up 1 extra first round draft pick the deal does have other consequences. A contract for Graham would be much greater than the 9th overall pick. I would argue I would rather spend money on a proven commodity than an unproven college player but it is still a big deal. The new CBA makes first rounders relatively cheap. Second Graham would be 4-5 years older than the 2014 and 2015 pick thus has a shorter value to the team. Now if the first rounders are busts or are not resigned then the point is moot. But it the two picks pan out and are resigned that would be two players that could be around for 8-10-12 years. Still I would make the deal. Graham is elite. We have not had elite at TE ever. The only elite players in the top 10 now may be Mack and Clowney and I don't think either will be there at #9. The rest are overrated QB's, very good LT's(we already have one and can get another in round 2), and WR's of which there are many later. I would make the deal for Graham. Otherwise they will end up reaching for Ebron, a WR, or drafting a RT(not the worst scenario but not ideal) if they can not manufacture a trade down.
Utah John Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Two first round draft picks? Sure! How about Mike Williams and John McCargo? Oh, you mean two FUTURE first round draft picks. Nevermind.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Youre neglecting the money part. You have 12m per year for the next 5 years and 2 first round picks- do you want to walk away with jimmy graham (a very valuable option, no doubt) or 2 first round picks (say ej/kiko and Sammy Watkins) AND manny Lawson and Alan branch? When you spend that pick on a vet it costs the pick and the vet you could use the cap space on Not that I am neglecting the money, its that the money is worth the player and we have the cap space. And if any of the draft picks hit, they will either leave as they enter their prime or get paid anyway. Graham is young, pay the money, we have the space and give up the extra first round pick to get him. If we go back and look at our schedule last year, we had many games we could have and should have won but a play or two cost us those games. If we had a red zone weapon like Graham who is also a down field threat all over the field its not inconceivable to think we may have made playoffs just by adding him to the roster last year, even with the QB injuries. This team is close to being good...healthy year at QB and a guy like this can make us quite dangerous as he opens field up for all other WR's and the RB's we have. Don't get me wrong, if we can get Mack at 9 I will be ecstatic with that pick, but I think going after Graham could and would be even better.
NoSaint Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Not that I am neglecting the money, its that the money is worth the player and we have the cap space. And if any of the draft picks hit, they will either leave as they enter their prime or get paid anyway. Graham is young, pay the money, we have the space and give up the extra first round pick to get him. If we go back and look at our schedule last year, we had many games we could have and should have won but a play or two cost us those games. If we had a red zone weapon like Graham who is also a down field threat all over the field its not inconceivable to think we may have made playoffs just by adding him to the roster last year, even with the QB injuries. This team is close to being good...healthy year at QB and a guy like this can make us quite dangerous as he opens field up for all other WR's and the RB's we have. Don't get me wrong, if we can get Mack at 9 I will be ecstatic with that pick, but I think going after Graham could and would be even better. I wasn't saying it must be a dealbreaker or anything but you have to include the money in the opportunity cost- it adds value to the picks that you didnt factor into your discussion. You seem to reach the same conclusion but others might not with the added free agents on top of the picks.
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I'm kinda with Alpha here. Graham is a stud and he could totally take EJ to another level. Basically, we are drafting Graham #9 and throwing a 1st round pick, that hopefully might be low. With no Byrd to pay, I could get behind this move. I LOVE Jimmy Graham.
Dorkington Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 The only position I would trade two firsts for is an elite QB.
todd Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Two first round picks for a non-QB? Are you insane? Recently heard that Saints placed NON-EXCLUSIVE Franchise Tag on Jimmy Graham. This means that a team has to: A) Work out an agreed contract with his agent & B) Give up (2) First Round draft picks. Why isn't this something we're discussing? It's been years since the Bills have had a solid TE threat (Riemersma? No idea who our best all-time is...), most teams having 2 better on-field TEs than our Starter! To me, this seems downright silly that we're not at least discussing this....(2014 #9 pick & a 2016 or 2017 1st Rounder for the best TE in the NFL??). This would be a strong commitment to EJ & the offense, especially with the depth at OL in this year's draft class. Wouldn't mind seeing us commit if Mack is unavailable at #9, let Marrone's expertise in Offensive Lineman give us a solid contributor later on in the draft. Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
Alphadawg7 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) The only position I would trade two firsts for is an elite QB. Two first round picks for a non-QB? Are you insane? Why do people keep saying its TWO first round picks? You are going to use one of those picks to draft a player in the draft anyway who is an unknown commodity. Giving that pick to NO for Graham is essentially saying we are drafting Jimmy Graham at #9 in the draft and giving up ONE first round pick to do so. For instance, instead of taking Ebron at #9, an idea being thrown around here, and not knowing if he is any good or not at the next level (people already are saying he is not a complete TE and had more drops than he should have), we instead use the #9 pick on the greatest TE in the NFL by a mile and one of the top 5-10 offensive weapons in the league overall. So therefore, the only extra price is next years first, which with Graham on the roster has the potential to be bottom third of the round pick easily. If we had say the 10th pick in the draft, and Jimmy Graham was there at #9, would anyone really have a problem trading up one spot to 9 to take him by simply just giving up next years pick? Seriously, thats a very fair price to pay for the 2nd biggest mismatch in the NFL behind only Calvin Johnson who also happens to be major upgrade on this roster and could have added quite a bit more wins as we had a lot of very close games where we could have used a guy like him near the redzone and opening up the field. GO GET JIMMY GRAHAM RUSS!!! We become a VERY interesting team upon doing so as this team is close between the D and the other offensive weapons! Edited March 5, 2014 by Alphadawg7
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