BigBuff423 Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Um, Stevie Johnson makes plenty of plays. Thus, he's a playmaker. That said, he's not an elite guys like some of the guys you named (let's relax on Cobb for a second). If you're receiving core consisted of SJ, Woods, Evans, and Goodwin, that's a damn fine group. We have a different definition of playmaker I suppose....in order to full flush out the argument, we would need to come to a consensus on the definition of playmaker, which I'm willing to do...if you want to draft one, we can go from there, until then it looks futile...
Turbosrrgood Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Couple things: 1) Davis and Ebron are the same height and Davis is only 4 lbs bigger. That said, Davis has freak speed. 2) You got me interested in ASJ. 3) Are we sure Marrone didn't unse a TE like because those we his options? Gragg was an undersized 7th rounder. Chandler was our leading wr and split out a decent amount. If he had better options at TE, maybe he would have tried different thing. But it does seem like EJ loves throwing to the TE (like most young QBs). I'd love to have a more explosive palyer than Chandler, who is solid but limited. Yeah I didn't mean to combine the speed size issues. My point was that he is not that big (nor is Davis), and he isn't the athlete that Davis is (whom some here compared him to). I will admit that he is still a very good athlete for a TE, and like I said, he could become a very good pass catcher in the NFL...However a complete inline TE he most certainly is not, he is a glorified receiver ala Hernandez. I'm not saying Ebron isn't talented by any means, but I don't think he's a top 10 talent. Actually Marrone used the TE a TON. As a matter of fact Chandler was the top receiver on the team. Chandler IS an inline TE, despite his deficiencies blocking. My point was that Marrone had more of a pure pass catcher in Gragg, and elected not to use him at TE because he did not consider him big enough or a good enough blocker despite the fact he looked better catching the ball. He said as much himself in the preseason. Ebron compares much more to Gragg than Chandler (even though he is far more skilled than Gragg). My point was that Marrone had the option of the inline TE, and the more pass happy split out TE type...And went almost entirely inline. Edited February 25, 2014 by Turbosrrgood
BillsBytheBay Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Not to be too nit-picky about your choice of words but when you say "another playmaker", that would insinuate the BILLS have one?? SJ isn't a playmaker...Dez Bryant, Megatron, AJ Green, Julio Jones, even Randall Cobb to a lesser extent so far...those are playmakers in my mind...guys, who be definition make plays when it matters and make them consistently, guys who can make a catch when it seems impossible and guys who can make it to pay-dirt when it seems they will come up short...SJ has done well overall, but he's also made his share of mistakes, i.e. dumb penalties, fumbles, and yes, the give up on the KC Int return does count....you can love SJ and think the BILLS need to keep him and play him...I respectfully disagree, given his salary and what he does NOT bring to the table...but to say the BILLS *don't need "another playmaker" at WR, is incredulous in my mind, b/c that's EXACTLY what the BILLS need...do they need it at 9th overall?? Probably not this year, but that is just b/c WR is so deep...I certainly think you can wait to Round 2 and maybe Round 3, depending on how the Draft is progressing to get an impact outside, playmaking WR...but don't be mistaken, the BILLS could use one... holy Crap. Folks here are relentless.Ok. I think the screen door on a submarine is the biggest problem. We may have the worst O line in football. I agree that SJ13 is not "elite". The only thing is, elite is a phrase I have not used. At all. Now, try to understand I have NOT compared SJ to anyone. You did. What I did imply, is that a talented O line may grant more time to EJ. This may help EJ progress. This and an off-season may develop into stevie having a break out 1000 yard, 10 TD season..... Oh wait... He had three..... Why are we cutting him again? Oh yea, he sucks. He didn't turn EJ into Joe Montana. (or Thad, or Tuel) Back to my actual point. Get the QB some good protection, and stop the run. If Watkins is available you have to take him, but he won't be. Edited February 25, 2014 by JaxBills
BigBuff423 Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 It's tough to wait on playmakers here are some 1st round WR off the top of my head: Julio, Megatron, Demayrius Thomas, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Roddy White, Michael Crabtree, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Kendall Wright & Larry Fitzgerald Wayne has won a SB with Manning, Megatron and AJ Green are the only two that I think are incredible, despite their lackluster team and in several other teams would have a SB ring already....however, the rest have come at the sacrifice of other parts of their teams...Atlanta and Texans, need I say more? Thomas at the expense of a good Defense, Bryant in dysfucntion camp in Dallas, Crabtree missed most of this year and has largely been a non-factor, and Kendall Wright...who??....My point really is not that these players are fantastic in their own right, but my point is if you put Andre on the Patsies, is he a SB winner right now? Or Dez on the Packers or Seahawks? What about Larry Fitz...what if he went to San Fran instead of them having Crabtree and Fitz produced the way he has in AZ, is that San Fran Offense so good that now San Fran has a complete team?...when you spend the money in a Cap limited system on players such as a WR, you limit what you can do with other positions...and so far, Ravens last year, Seahawks this year, Giants the year before...all have relatively non-descript WRs but clutch QBs and solid Defenses...yes GB won, with an elite QB and WR corp before Jennings bolted, but their Defense also stepped up...but my point being I would rather have an All-Pro Tacklet at bookends and great Offensive line and know that the QB will be protected, the RBs will get space to run, and the WRs will have time to get open, rather than hinging all my hope that the WRs can out run, out-juke, and get off the jamb before the QB is pasted to the turf....it's a difference of opinion, and that's cool....but I just think the way to build a team is from the Offensive and Defensive Line out, with a great QB under center...the rest of the moving parts / pieces can be figured out....and, on the one hand one poster was saying how SJ is a playmaker and that we need to Draft one in the 1st round, yet SJ himself was a 7th round pick...where's the logic in that??
Turbosrrgood Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) holy Crap. Folks here are relentless. Ok. I think the screen door on a submarine is the biggest problem. We may have the worst O line in football. I agree that SJ13 is not "elite". The only thing is, elite is a phrase I have not used. At all. Now, try to understand I have NOT compared SJ to anyone. You did. What I did imply, is that a talented O line may grant more time to EJ. This may help EJ progress. This and an off-season may develop into stevie having a break out 1000 yard, 10 TD season..... Oh wait... He had three..... Why are we cutting him again? Oh yea, he sucks. He didn't turn EJ into Joe Montana. (or Thad, or Tuel) Back to my actual point. Get the QB some good protection, and stop the run. If Watkins is available you have to take him, but he won't be. Ok, this is a bit ridiculous. 2 Years ago people were saying the Bills had the best Oline in football, when our Oline was a mess with injured players and 3rd stringers...But because PFF #'s something something blah blah, in front of the quick release Ryan Fitzpatrick they were the best ever....Now with a healthy mostly solid line in front of a carousel of injured inexperienced QB's, an injured and confused CJ, they are the worst ever. The dramatic over reactions are always entertaining. The Bills have one of the best center's in the game, a very good young LT, a good but not great RG, and good pass blocking but terrible run blocking RT. We had ONE major hole, LG. Combine that with panicky inexperienced QB's, a rookie OC, and an injured/misused CJ and you have terrible overreactions. Edited February 25, 2014 by Turbosrrgood
BillsBytheBay Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) We have a different definition of playmaker I suppose....in order to full flush out the argument, we would need to come to a consensus on the definition of playmaker, which I'm willing to do...if you want to draft one, we can go from there, until then it looks futile... how about instead of arguing semantics, take it the way I intend, and not how it would work in you're head yo make me wrong. Edited February 25, 2014 by JaxBills
BigBuff423 Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 holy Crap. Folks here are relentless. Ok. I think the screen door on a submarine is the biggest problem. We may have the worst O line in football. I agree that SJ13 is not "elite". The only thing is, elite is a phrase I have not used. At all. Now, try to understand I have NOT compared SJ to anyone. You did. What I did imply, is that a talented O line may grant more time to EJ. This may help EJ progress. This and an off-season may develop into stevie having a break out 1000 yard, 10 TD season..... Oh wait... He had three..... Why are we cutting him again? Oh yea, he sucks. He didn't turn EJ into Joe Montana. (or Thad, or Tuel) Back to my actual point. Get the QB some good protection, and stop the run. If Watkins is available you have to take him, but he won't be. Relax cupcake...I take issue with your point, you don't have to get bent out of shape....as for SJ having three seasons with 10 TDs, that's just not true...he had 1...and last year he didn't produce while struggling with injuries...so, where is the guaranteed playmaker?? As for "relentless", feel free to walk away from this discussion...no one is holding your feet to the fire...but you continue to post, and I will respond until I'm ready to walk away...that's the basic principle of a discussion. And you're right, I did compare SJ...because if he is on the roster and using up CAP money, that means someone else, ala Draft or FA, ISN'T...I don't think I said he "sucks", I just take issue with what he is making versus what he is producing and I think the Draft offers better WRs for the value...just, IMO of course...hopefully, me HAVING an opinion isn't too much for you....
BillsBytheBay Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Ok, this is a bit ridiculous. 2 Years ago people were saying we had the best Oline in football, when our Oline was a mess with injured players and 3rd stringers...But because PFF #'s something something blah blah, in front of the quick release Ryan Fitzpatrick they were the best ever....Now with a healthy mostly solid line in front of a carousel of injured inexperienced QB's, an injured and confused CJ, they are the worst ever. The dramatic over reactions are always entertaining. We have one of the best center's in the game, a very good young LT, a good but not great RG, and good pass blocking but terrible run blocking RT. We had ONE major hole, LG. Combine that with panicky inexperienced QB's, and you have terrible overreactions. I was never one of the believers in our line. Levitre, and the oft injured Wood were our best. Now Wood is good, Glenn is great, and the other three needed to bring shovels to help bury the QB.
BillsBytheBay Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Relax cupcake...I take issue with your point, you don't have to get bent out of shape....as for SJ having three seasons with 10 TDs, that's just not true...he had 1...and last year he didn't produce while struggling with injuries...so, where is the guaranteed playmaker?? As for "relentless", feel free to walk away from this discussion...no one is holding your feet to the fire...but you continue to post, and I will respond until I'm ready to walk away...that's the basic principle of a discussion. And you're right, I did compare SJ...because if he is on the roster and using up CAP money, that means someone else, ala Draft or FA, ISN'T...I don't think I said he "sucks", I just take issue with what he is making versus what he is producing and I think the Draft offers better WRs for the value...just, IMO of course...hopefully, me HAVING an opinion isn't too much for you.... look. I want a WR. Just, not with our 9th overall, unless Watkins is there. I'm not arguing that SJ is or should be our "#1" WR. I don't believe in number what evers. I'll change my wording just for you. I think we should add a play maker with SJ13. I also believe that if SJ had what had become a typical year for him, you wouldn't think he is over paid..........blah blah blah, I think you understood the rest of what I was trying to say. Edited February 25, 2014 by JaxBills
John from Riverside Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 My concern is if they dont make TE a prioriy early then it wont be a priority at all I want EJ Manuel to succeed.....you help a young QB out by giving him "open when covered" targets that can do something with the ball after they catch it...... I feel that Ebron is that....but hey...ASJ could be that as well...... There are literally like 5 guys I would be happy with at that 9th pick...and we do in fact have Moeki....but I want to see one more quality TE added to the mix so we can knuckle down and go smash mouth 2 TE sets when we want to
OldTimer1960 Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 I agree that TE is a need. I also think that Ebron could be in the conversation at the 9th pick, but I don't think he is a star. Vernon Davis is very good, a bit more athletic than Ebron - and yet Davis is not really a star. Davis has averaged about 50 catches and 7 TDs per year over his career. I also don't think that at 6'4", Ebron "is open when he is not". That's Calvin Johnson, Anquan Bolden, Alshon Jefferies, Brandon Marshal - not many other guys. I am not totally sold on Mike Evans, either, but I think that he better fits that description than does Ebron.
enlightener Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Jaxbills, you called the whole board "amazing" acting like we are all ridiculous to "hold on" to the fumble like that's his only problem like we are all emotional idiots or something... then you praise sj and make excuses for him citing qbs...what QBs did Lee evans have? He was far more accomplished and less mistake prone than SJ. Edited February 25, 2014 by enlightener
John from Riverside Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 I agree that TE is a need. I also think that Ebron could be in the conversation at the 9th pick, but I don't think he is a star. Vernon Davis is very good, a bit more athletic than Ebron - and yet Davis is not really a star. Davis has averaged about 50 catches and 7 TDs per year over his career. I also don't think that at 6'4", Ebron "is open when he is not". That's Calvin Johnson, Anquan Bolden, Alshon Jefferies, Brandon Marshal - not many other guys. I am not totally sold on Mike Evans, either, but I think that he better fits that description than does Ebron. I agree that TE is a need. I also think that Ebron could be in the conversation at the 9th pick, but I don't think he is a star. Vernon Davis is very good, a bit more athletic than Ebron - and yet Davis is not really a star. Davis has averaged about 50 catches and 7 TDs per year over his career. I also don't think that at 6'4", Ebron "is open when he is not". That's Calvin Johnson, Anquan Bolden, Alshon Jefferies, Brandon Marshal - not many other guys. I am not totally sold on Mike Evans, either, but I think that he better fits that description than does Ebron. Its not the highth that makes him open when he is not....the kid is a fricken Clydesdale and I dont care what anyone says....4.6 speed is REALLY fast for a huge physical presense like that
Nitro Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Build the offensive line first before thinking TE or WR. With Free Agency coming up on Mach 11, the Bills can plug in some needs that way. I doubt they will draft a TE or sign one in FA. I doubt they really value the position that much. I expect them to bring in a WR and possibly a LB thru FA. The draft is too deep in quality OL to pass up. If the Bills can get 2 or 3 solid players, the OL can be set for years. Hard for EJ or any QB to throw will on the run or on their back. The Bills lined up with 2 below average guards last year and Pears' play fell off at RT last season. If you want a WR, they can be had in the 3rd or 4th rounds.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Not certain I follow your point?? Are you saying only Glenn thinks he's a LT, or they shouldn't draft a player who's been labeled a LT and then move him to RT?? Either way, whichever guy gets moved to the right side isn't going to be happy and will bolt at the first chance he gets. Or the other option is maybe in the 2nd round or so, or trade down and with a late 1st round pick draft a guy to play RT, but with a lower draft choice less likely to hurt anyone's feelings. If you want to create a problem, draft a guy that believes he is a LT and play him at RT, or move Glenn.
BillsBytheBay Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Jaxbills, you called the whole board "amazing" acting like we are all ridiculous to "hold on" to the fumble like that's his only problem like we are all emotional idiots or something... then you praise sj and make excuses for him citing qbs...what QBs did Lee evans have? He was far more accomplished and less mistake prone than SJ. first off I am not calling the entire board amazing just a specific few. I also haven't had any praises for Stevie Johnson. Just listed his stats over the last 4 years. This one year he was injured had an undrafted rookie free agent, practice squad player with one start, and EJ. That, and it seemed that all three were in rotation! I'm tired of you not even understanding my point. If you think it's fair to judge SJ on just this year, than you're right. He doesn't deserve that middle of the road WR contract he got. If you prefer to take his career into the situation, personally, I keep the guy getting me 1000 yards a year. That's called production. I believe SJ will return to form next year. it's not like we're trying to make a case for no production Lee Evans. If you respond to this, you will have the last word. Edited February 26, 2014 by JaxBills
thewildrabbit Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) holy Crap. Folks here are relentless. Ok. I think the screen door on a submarine is the biggest problem. We may have the worst O line in football. I agree that SJ13 is not "elite". The only thing is, elite is a phrase I have not used. At all. Now, try to understand I have NOT compared SJ to anyone. You did. What I did imply, is that a talented O line may grant more time to EJ. This may help EJ progress. This and an off-season may develop into stevie having a break out 1000 yard, 10 TD season..... Oh wait... He had three..... Why are we cutting him again? Oh yea, he sucks. He didn't turn EJ into Joe Montana. (or Thad, or Tuel) Back to my actual point. Get the QB some good protection, and stop the run. If Watkins is available you have to take him, but he won't be. We honestly don't know if Stevie, or any of the current receives can get to an elite status because the surrounding cast is do bad. If the QB doesn't have time to throw, nothing else on offense matters!!! Last season 108 hits on the QB, and 48 sacks! The starting defense is already comprised 9 of 11 players as #1 & #2 picks in the draft. Plus the fact that Whaley was able to pull 4 defensive star starters out of the draft, free agency, and a trade last year. LBer Jerry Hughes 10 sacks- LBer Manny Lawson, Alan Branch, and Kiko!! The defense should be fine with a different scheme that doesn't focus 100% of rushing the passer, and allows some leeway in stopping the run. OTOH, look what happened with the O line last season. They let the best graded player on that line leave, and tried to replace him with utter garbage players that were both cut by week six. The NY Jets did a study of all the OT's drafted over a ten year period, and discovered that after the 10th pick in the first round the bust rate goes up considerably. I really don't care anymore who the Bills select with that 9th overall, as it really depends on who is still available. TE, WR, OT, LBer, OG trade back for more picks. What I do care about is fixing that O line once and for all, and better then the band-aids they tried to apply last season. The team needs a better RT, a better LG, and better depth then some "maybes" / scrubs right off the waiver wire!! What gets me about this organization and most of the fans here that have so little regard for building a superior offensive line. I guess fans forget The great lines of the AFL championship teams Billy Shaw*, Stew Barber*, Dave Behrman*, Al Bemiller*, Dick Hudson*. all five starters were all pro! The great lines of the Kelly era, Will Wolford* , Jim Ritchter*, Kent Hull*, Howard Ballard, John Davis. That OJ had the electric Co. O line. Like Reggie McKenzie, Joe DeLamielleure*, Dave Foley. There is a world of difference between a waiver wire pickup, and a top draft choice, and that applies to EVERY position on the team.Not just the defense and skill players. Somehow this franchise keeps thinking they can get by with scrubs on the O line. * = all pro Edited February 26, 2014 by FeartheLosing
enlightener Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) first off I am not calling the entire board amazing just a specific few. I also haven't had any praises for Stevie Johnson. Just listed his stats over the last 4 years. This one year he was injured had an undrafted rookie free agent, practice squad player with one start, and EJ. That, and it seemed that all three were in rotation! I'm tired of you not even understanding my point. If you think it's fair to judge SJ on just this year, than you're right. He doesn't deserve that middle of the road WR contract he got. If you prefer to take his career into the situation, personally, I keep the guy getting me 1000 yards a year. That's called production. I believe SJ will return to form next year. it's not like we're trying to make a case for no production Lee Evans. If you respond to this, you will have the last word. so you use the word "we" but that's not the entire board? and don't you then list his stats then his 7th draft round spot which implies overachievement???? then you list his qbs but that's not an excuse? oh and did his drops and penalties happen this year?? did his injuries just happen this year or last year too and part of 2011? did you notice how hes still skinny and admitted he has no real off season workout routine??? SJ is a lazy joke and a bonifiable #2 if that...admit it. nice post and stats but this year is deep in oline players....so i say get a skill player at 9 then og in round 2 or trade back and get 2. Edited February 26, 2014 by enlightener
OldTimer1960 Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Its not the highth that makes him open when he is not....the kid is a fricken Clydesdale and I dont care what anyone says....4.6 speed is REALLY fast for a huge physical presense like that I think he is fast/athletic enough to come close to Vernon Davis' production, but I am not sure that he is the type that you can just throw the ball in his general area and expect that he will out-jump a DB or LB when he IS covered. If I KNEW that he would have the same career as Vernon Davis, I am still not sure that I'd spend the 9th pick in this draft on him. In my opinion, Davis is good, but not great.
thewildrabbit Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) nice post and stats but this year is deep in oline players....so i say get a skill player at 9 then og in round 2 or trade back and get 2. Thanks, The draft is certainly deep for the O line, just not for elite O line players. The Bills brought in TO thinking it would help them open up the offense, and what they found out is no QB had the time to get him the ball on a consistent basis. A #1 pick on WR Lee Evans...did that pick get them to the playoffs? You can have five all pro receivers on the team, and if the QB doesn't have the time to get the ball to those players.... nothing else matters!!! Anyway, i don't care if this team goes Evans, Watkins, or Ebron. If they don't find some elite players for that O line like they have all over the defense, it really won't matter what receiver, LBer or skill player they draft. Edited February 26, 2014 by FeartheLosing
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