Bills coaches want to move on from training staff, FO dysfunction

[ALF]

Bill Polian 84-93 , drafting, wheeling and dealing. It's never been near as good since.

[CodeMonkey]

My point is that everything is a friggin' disaster to this fanbase. It's monotonous. All we do is look for more stuff to B word about.

I'm of the belief (perhaps naively) that if we can pinpoint the cause(s), we as a fanbase might be able to influence change, or at least know when not to waste our money on false hope. What's tiresome is your constant attack on those of us who are trying to force change.

Many (not saying PTR does or not, I do not know) are of the opinion that to question or complain or worse still, fail to financially support the franchise will cause the Bills to relocate out of Buffalo. If you assume that mindset then you can see why some people can't accept complaints from anyone, be it after 14 years of suck or 114.

Edited February 28, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[May Day 10]

I would actually be much more comfortable with the suck if the team's future was stable. We are running out of time here. One or 2 good seasons and the swell of support and excitement will make it more difficult for the NFL to allow a relocation. As it is now, a lot of people are fairly apathetic towards the franchise

[The Big Cat]

2000 2000 NFL AFC East 4th 8 8 0 2001 2001 NFL AFC East 5th 3 13 0 2002 2002 NFL AFC East 4th 8 8 0 2003 2003 NFL AFC East 3rd 6 10 0 2004 2004 NFL AFC East 3rd 9 7 0 2005 2005 NFL AFC East 3rd 5 11 0 2006 2006 NFL AFC East 3rd 7 9 0 2007 2007 NFL AFC East 2nd 7 9 0 2008 2008 NFL AFC East 4th 7 9 0 2009 2009 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10 0 2010 2010 NFL AFC East 4th 4 12 0 2011 2011 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10 0 2012 2012 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10 0 2013 2013 NFL AFC East 4th 6 10

 

 

Is that not monotonous? Wild prediction.... they will end up between 4-7 wins again this season.

Something is broken there. This is a revenue sharing and capped league. To miss the playoffs and come in last or 2nd last place that many times is a huge mathematical long shot.

 

As much as we'd love to internalize this and blame ourselves, you really can't look past the fact that the !@#$ing Patriots* have won the god damned division every year but two since 2001.

 

And it'd be easy to make the argument that they win the division beating up on lesser opponents, except for the fact that they've been making super bowl and conference appearances throughout that run.

 

The Patriots* haven't had a losing season since 2000. NO OTHER DIVISION IN FOOTBALL HAS A TEAM THAT'S BEEN THAT CONSISTENTLY GOOD.

 

Bills fans beat themselves up pretty good and they're plenty frustrated with the organization. That's all well and good, but let's not pretend that our division and the playoffs in general have been there for the taking throughout the last 14 years.

[May Day 10]

I think a large part of that, especially since the 2007 season is a weak Division. A ton of the Patriots' success in the playoffs has been based on them securing home playoff games (by the 5 or 6 cake-walks per season).

They still definitely deserve credit, but it doesn't excuse the Bills from not making the playoffs in forever IMO. They still only finished 2nd one time and 6 straight last place finishes. These are the Jets and Dolphins too, who really haven't been too good either.

 

 

Anyways, I do think the Patriots are ripe for the picking (and have been). Im hoping this is the year the Bills do it. I think they are close, but it is predicated on Byrd, Manuel improving, and having another good draft to go with the 2013 draft.

[Cash]

As much as we'd love to internalize this and blame ourselves, you really can't look past the fact that the !@#$ing Patriots* have won the god damned division every year but two since 2001.

 

And it'd be easy to make the argument that they win the division beating up on lesser opponents, except for the fact that they've been making super bowl and conference appearances throughout that run.

 

The Patriots* haven't had a losing season since 2000. NO OTHER DIVISION IN FOOTBALL HAS A TEAM THAT'S BEEN THAT CONSISTENTLY GOOD.

 

Bills fans beat themselves up pretty good and they're plenty frustrated with the organization. That's all well and good, but let's not pretend that our division and the playoffs in general have been there for the taking throughout the last 14 years.

 

Even changing every loss to the Pats to a win during that stretch (which almost always means adding 2 wins) still doesn't leave us with an impressive set of records. And that's unrealistic, because even switching the Pats out with the Browns/Jaguars/Raiders would still yield a few wins over the Bills in 28 matchups. Yes, the Patriots have been uncommonly good during our stretch of futility. And they've owned us during that stretch, which hasn't helped matters at all. But the Bills have been objectively bad against the whole league, not just the Patriots or the AFC East as a whole.

[The Big Cat]

Even changing every loss to the Pats to a win during that stretch (which almost always means adding 2 wins) still doesn't leave us with an impressive set of records. And that's unrealistic, because even switching the Pats out with the Browns/Jaguars/Raiders would still yield a few wins over the Bills in 28 matchups. Yes, the Patriots have been uncommonly good during our stretch of futility. And they've owned us during that stretch, which hasn't helped matters at all. But the Bills have been objectively bad against the whole league, not just the Patriots or the AFC East as a whole.

 

Yeah the point was that major point of contention here has been the 14 year playoff draught, during which time teams have snuck in with glaring flaws and less-than-exemplary regular season records.

 

2013:

8-7-1 Packers

 

2011:

8-8 Broncos

 

2010:

7-9 Seahawks

 

2008:

8-8 Chargers

9-6-1 Eagles

 

2006:

8-8 Giants

 

2004:

8-8 Rams

8-8 Vikings

 

This doesn't count the abundance of 9-7 teams who also skated in over the same period

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

To miss the playoffs and come in last or 2nd last place that many times is a huge mathematical long shot.

 

Only if you are bad at math (but this has been hashed out exhaustively elsewhere.)

 

If every team was exactly as good as the next then this long shot arguement is worth stating. If every game was decided by the coin toss, for example, then yes the historical losing would be improbable. But even Vegas knows this is not reality (hence point spreads).

 

The real long shot is Tom Brady. Out of all the players drafted at all the positions, what is the probability of getting a hall of famer, in the 6th round at the most critical position? I suspect before Brady it was close to 0 and even now is still likely, albeit a little less, close to zero.

 

That sort of outcome is a complete parity killer and has very long term ramifications.

 

Think about how many use their best pick, their top money, their most significant coaching resources on getting above average play at that position and still fail?

 

Merging this with the OP... Whoever's job it is, the top priority for this season needs to be keeping Manuel healthy enough to be on the field so that only his play can be determinant in his removal from it.

[Cash]

Yeah the point was that major point of contention here has been the 14 year playoff draught, during which time teams have snuck in with glaring flaws and less-than-exemplary regular season records.

 

2013:

8-7-1 Packers

 

2011:

8-8 Broncos

 

2010:

7-9 Seahawks

 

2008:

8-8 Chargers

9-6-1 Eagles

 

2006:

8-8 Giants

 

2004:

8-8 Rams

8-8 Vikings

 

This doesn't count the abundance of 9-7 teams who also skated in over the same period

 

I'm not sure I really get your point. The 14-year playoff drought is easy to point to because it really jumps out. But it's just a symptom, and the cause is, "the Bills are a dysfunctional and poorly-run franchise." Even poorly-run franchises sneak into the playoffs once in a while, and the Patriots being so consistently good is one of the reasons that the Bills haven't. But do you think that the Bills are well-run, and that it's only bad luck that's kept them from success? I doubt it, because you generally seem pretty lucid, but again, I'm not really sure what you're arguing. That if we were in a different division but all else was the same, we would've won the division with a 9-7 or 8-8 record once or twice in the past 14 years? And maybe that that playoff experience would've made Jauron or Mularkey or Gailey a better coach, or caused whichever GM to make more/better signings or picks to get us to the next level? (I don't buy that, if that is what you're saying.)

 

I mean, the Washington Proud Traditions made the playoffs in 2012 and I don't think anyone thinks they're a well-run franchise -- they just made one really good move in trading a king's ransom for a transcendent talent at the game's most important position. Of course, they almost immediately started torpedoing that transcendent talent with a series of terrible decisions, which is about par for the course for them.

 

I'll always love the Bills, and I love the community of Bills fans even more, but when the team stinks and it's the team's own fault, I will criticize them. I'm not going to pretend that all is well with the team when they keep putting out this garbage product year after year. I will continue to obsessively watch said garbage product *and* get my hopes up that things are turning around every year, but I can only ignore reality for so long.

[May Day 10]

OK. so the Bills are only heading toward a decade and a half of failure because of Tom Brady.

 

 

 

 

No wonder Buffalo as a region cant get out of its own way.

[3rdand12]

OK. so the Bills are only heading toward a decade and a half of failure because of Tom Brady.

 

 

 

 

No wonder Buffalo as a region cant get out of its own way.

stupid Brady !!

[The Big Cat]

I'm not sure I really get your point. The 14-year playoff drought is easy to point to because it really jumps out. But it's just a symptom, and the cause is, "the Bills are a dysfunctional and poorly-run franchise." Even poorly-run franchises sneak into the playoffs once in a while, and the Patriots being so consistently good is one of the reasons that the Bills haven't. But do you think that the Bills are well-run, and that it's only bad luck that's kept them from success? I doubt it, because you generally seem pretty lucid, but again, I'm not really sure what you're arguing. That if we were in a different division but all else was the same, we would've won the division with a 9-7 or 8-8 record once or twice in the past 14 years? And maybe that that playoff experience would've made Jauron or Mularkey or Gailey a better coach, or caused whichever GM to make more/better signings or picks to get us to the next level? (I don't buy that, if that is what you're saying.)

 

I mean, the Washington Proud Traditions made the playoffs in 2012 and I don't think anyone thinks they're a well-run franchise -- they just made one really good move in trading a king's ransom for a transcendent talent at the game's most important position. Of course, they almost immediately started torpedoing that transcendent talent with a series of terrible decisions, which is about par for the course for them.

 

I'll always love the Bills, and I love the community of Bills fans even more, but when the team stinks and it's the team's own fault, I will criticize them. I'm not going to pretend that all is well with the team when they keep putting out this garbage product year after year. I will continue to obsessively watch said garbage product *and* get my hopes up that things are turning around every year, but I can only ignore reality for so long.

OK. so the Bills are only heading toward a decade and a half of failure because of Tom Brady.

 

 

 

 

No wonder Buffalo as a region cant get out of its own way.

 

Well, if only well-run organizations win Super Bowls, then the NFL is by and large filled with dysfunctional franchises.

 

What is our definition for well run organizations? And what makes us so sure that we can safely name at least 20 that are run better. THAT'S my point.

 

If you're only basis for "poorly run organization" is our playoff draught, then I countered that with some evidence to suggest that drought hasn't happened in a vacuum, and that the poor drafts of yore, the coaching carousels, the meddlesome ownership, et al are not stand alone contributing factors.

 

Likewise, I have a hard time buying the comparative team to team expertise of anyone who thinks our franchise is alone on misfit franchise island.

[bbb]

Many (not saying PTR does or not, I do not know) are of the opinion that to question or complain or worse still, fail to financially support the franchise will cause the Bills to relocate out of Buffalo. If you assume that mindset then you can see why some people can't accept complaints from anyone, be it after 14 years of suck or 114.

 

The financial support is right..............In the winter after the '85 season, I said to my friends "Let's get season tickets, so when the Bills move away in two years, we can at least say it wasn't our fault."...........They agreed to it, even though we could sneak in any game we wanted because my friend's uncle got us in..........Then, later in the summer, the Bills signed Jim Kelly - and we still have those season tickets! Closing in on 30 years.

 

No wonder Buffalo as a region cant get out of its own way.

 

That post would have been better five years ago.

[YoloinOhio]

Well, if only well-run organizations win Super Bowls, then the NFL is by and large filled with dysfunctional franchises.

 

What is our definition for well run organizations? And what makes us so sure that we can safely name at least 20 that are run better. THAT'S my point.

 

If you're only basis for "poorly run organization" is our playoff draught, then I countered that with some evidence to suggest that drought hasn't happened in a vacuum, and that the poor drafts of yore, the coaching carousels, the meddlesome ownership, et al are not stand alone contributing factors.

 

Likewise, I have a hard time buying the comparative team to team expertise of anyone who thinks our franchise is alone on misfit franchise island.

They ALL have some level of "dysfunction" in regards to power struggles. It just doesn't always get discussed in the media. It may or may not relate to their W-L record.

[KOKBILLS]

On a side note WGR was using Graham's quote about the pleasantry of the Byrd talks this time around on their updates the other day...Naming Graham as the source...Yet they did not think this story was worthy of much consideration...Just thought that was interesting...

[Cash]

Bumpety bump bump:

 

http://bills.buffalo...itment-winning/

 

Obviously the Toronto hiatus is being discussed in other threads, but what's relevant here is Graham's take on what this means for the behind-the-scenes power struggle:

 

The source said Brandon faced a long, uphill battle to reach an internal consensus for drastic amendments to the Toronto deal.

 

But Brandon got it done, and that's a good sign for Bills fans who are tired of financial decisions getting in the way of football decisions.

 

We know that the Bills won't want to air their dirty laundry, so we in the hoi polloi won't see many outward signs of who's "winning". This is one of the few winning over profit victories that is actually visible to the fans. Theoretically, Jim Carpenter being replaced as head trainer would be another one, but I have to think that at this point, replacing him would be tantamount to publicly confirming Graham's anonymous sources, so he's safe for at least another year. (And if he does go, I'm guessing he'll be convinced to retire rather than be outright fired.)

 

I continue to think that Brandon is ostensibly the CEO with 100% control of all operations, but that certain high-level personnel feel that they are accountable only to Wilson. I also continue to think that Brandon couldn't threaten any serious repercussions (firing, e.g.) to any of the "lifers" without first getting Wilson's approval, which reinforces the lifers' feelings that they're not subordinate to Brandon.

 

I continue to hope that Brandon is primarily on the side of Whaley/Marrone in most or all of these conflicts, and that he's capable of winning these battles with Littman/Overdorf/etc. I'm a little more confident now that that's the case.

[bbb]

That IS good news.

[KOKBILLS]

Bumpety bump bump:

 

http://bills.buffalo...itment-winning/

 

Obviously the Toronto hiatus is being discussed in other threads, but what's relevant here is Graham's take on what this means for the behind-the-scenes power struggle:

 

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We know that the Bills won't want to air their dirty laundry, so we in the hoi polloi won't see many outward signs of who's "winning". This is one of the few winning over profit victories that is actually visible to the fans. Theoretically, Jim Carpenter being replaced as head trainer would be another one, but I have to think that at this point, replacing him would be tantamount to publicly confirming Graham's anonymous sources, so he's safe for at least another year. (And if he does go, I'm guessing he'll be convinced to retire rather than be outright fired.)

 

I continue to think that Brandon is ostensibly the CEO with 100% control of all operations, but that certain high-level personnel feel that they are accountable only to Wilson. I also continue to think that Brandon couldn't threaten any serious repercussions (firing, e.g.) to any of the "lifers" without first getting Wilson's approval, which reinforces the lifers' feelings that they're not subordinate to Brandon.

 

I continue to hope that Brandon is primarily on the side of Whaley/Marrone in most or all of these conflicts, and that he's capable of winning these battles with Littman/Overdorf/etc. I'm a little more confident now that that's the case.

 

Good to hear...

 

I agree that Brandon is squarely in the Whaley/Marrone corner...I've felt that way all along...They are tied at the hip...Russ was put in charge and shortly thereafter Marrone was hired, and Whaley was promoted...It just makes sense that those three are in full agreement with the plan going forward...I think this whole thing is akin to a marathon rather than a sprint...It's going to take a little more time...But it's moving slowly in the right direction...

[bbb]

Good to hear...

 

I agree that Brandon is squarely in the Whaley/Marrone corner...I've felt that way all along...They are tied at the hip...Russ was put in charge and shortly thereafter Marrone was hired, and Whaley was promoted...It just makes sense that those three are in full agreement with the plan going forward...I think this whole thing is akin to a marathon rather than a sprint...It's going to take a little more time...But it's moving slowly in the right direction...

 

Too bad it's not akin to a biathlon, where they can shoot Littman and Overdorf.

[Coach Tuesday]

Good to hear...

 

I agree that Brandon is squarely in the Whaley/Marrone corner...I've felt that way all along...They are tied at the hip...Russ was put in charge and shortly thereafter Marrone was hired, and Whaley was promoted...It just makes sense that those three are in full agreement with the plan going forward...I think this whole thing is akin to a marathon rather than a sprint...It's going to take a little more time...But it's moving slowly in the right direction...

 

Sorry but I don't see how this is "good" news. So Brandon, the self-proclaimed avatar of Ralph Wilson himself, had to "fight a long uphill battle" with the bean counters (Littman) to enact changes to the Toronto series? That's good news? It's the opposite - it's terrible news. It confirms that Littman is still running the show and is focused solely on the bottom line. The fact that Brandon prevailed is most likely because he was able to convince Littman that there was only marginal (at best) financial benefit from continuing with the deal, as today's BN article points out. Littman doesn't give a rat's ass about winning games. I have no problem with Brandon, never have. But I despise Ralph Wilson and his accountants and I can't wait for the day when they are finally gone... I don't care if it means the team has to move, I'd take the tradeoff.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Coach Tuesday